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last 25 pc APM 152 ED

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#76 HCR32

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Posted 28 January 2020 - 09:17 PM

APM will immortalize itself with visual scopes way after it closes its doors if it’s done right just like Zeiss did with its outstanding visual use scopes not astro photography ones. Sorry guys if I have upset anyone.

Edited by HCR32, 28 January 2020 - 09:18 PM.

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#77 ris242

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Posted 28 January 2020 - 10:57 PM

APM will immortalize itself with visual scopes way after it closes its doors if it’s done right just like Zeiss did with its outstanding visual use scopes not astro photography ones. Sorry guys if I have upset anyone.

And if they stay ahead of the pack, and maintain a following,  they shouldn't have to close their doors.


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#78 HCR32

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Posted 28 January 2020 - 11:27 PM

I’ll ad to my vote for a 178mm doublet and now a 10” Mak f15-20 or classic cass f15-20 with kinked spiders to soften those horrible diffraction spikes.
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#79 SchrödingersCat

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Posted 28 January 2020 - 11:31 PM

Anyone of these will do. Just please make it something special for the visual observer.

 

I’ll ad to my vote for a 178mm doublet and now a 10” Mak f15-20 or classic cass f15-20 with kinked spiders to soften those horrible diffraction spikes.


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#80 Far Star

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 07:34 AM

9 inch f/15 Maksutov-Cassegrain with (at most) 25 % obstruction. It could be a Gregory Maksutov (kind of upscaled version of the Skywatcher 7 inch f/15) that is cheaper to manufacture than a Rumak.


Edited by Far Star, 29 January 2020 - 09:34 AM.

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#81 Astrojensen

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:06 PM

I think a visual only scope is the way to go and if a balance between quality and cost can be found the scope will sell its self.

Really? What you describe is basically the APM 152/1200 ED and that thing didn't sell nearly as well as one might think it would. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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#82 HCR32

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 04:40 PM

My guess is he sold enough on paper but didn’t meet boardroom expectations. 😉

#83 ris242

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 05:00 PM

Part of message #1 (aperture & price point) is probably due to this

 

https://www.apm-tele...pa-focuser.html


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#84 BillP

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 09:20 PM

Markus, since you obviously have the wrist of the market and know your sales' volume better than anyone, what about sharing with us what you would actually have in mind as a suitable scope.

Maybe if instead of us shooting in the dark, you put this on the table and get reactions from the audience, the discussion could get a more constructive direction?

Amen to that!  Why not just say what the price point you want to design around and at what aperture you could do that price point, then everyone can say what features they would want with it for that price point.  And politely ask all of us who can't afford that particular price point to please not comment since you need input only from the consumers who could and would pay that much for a scope of that aperture.  That way all the rest of us who only want inexpensive OTAs that are $5,000 and under will just bow out.



#85 scooke

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 10:42 PM

Here are my suggestions:

  • $5K 170-180 apo doublet or triplet whatever gets you there with razor sharpness even if there is a little color.
  • $4-5K 10" Mak-Cass
  • $2-3K Traveler replacement 105mm F5.9 triplet 19" long for easy travel.

Don't do anything that is a compromise on visual quality. .96 strehl or above no matter what.



#86 APM M.Ludes

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Posted 02 February 2020 - 10:06 AM

Scooke

 

we have a 105 f/6.2 with very high quality LZOS triplet for about $ 3,500.00 already....if we could cut dealers and still sell around the world, it could go down maybe to $ 3,000.00 but as we know buyers like to buy from here dealers, so we need to be able to give a dealer a minimum discount or he will not buy

 

above is maybe the worldbest fast apo ever made, beside Zeiss APQ and AP Travell and Takahashi FCT 100 , new for much less money, then the others selling used

 

Maksutov : the only Maksutov you can find today are from China  or if you go big to 400 mm, then we can get optics made in Russia by Mr. Sankowitsch of Santel. I do not want to deal with chinese Maks  they did not showed yet, that they can do them in high quality

 

a bigger Apo doublet, maybe it could be possible , but the requirements are minimum 100 pc per year , that means every 3 to 4 days 1 must be sold...maybe this sounds not to much for selling all over the world, but it is very much, to much. Should we open a Pool for firm orders and after we have reach maybe 50% we could start production

 

the small size market is filled up and overfilled , the bigger size do not offer the volume which we must buy

 

I still need some time for more thoughts whats next :-)


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#87 Alvan Clark

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Posted 02 February 2020 - 06:23 PM


a bigger Apo doublet, maybe it could be possible , but the requirements are minimum 100 pc per year , that means every 3 to 4 days 1 must be sold...maybe this sounds not to much for selling all over the world, but it is very much, to much. Should we open a Pool for firm orders and after we have reach maybe 50% we could start production

You would need some details and price before you're going to get 50 firm orders with a small deposit.
 



#88 HCR32

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 06:50 AM

If it’s a big doublet Refractor I’m ready to deposit and if I can get a TMB 21mm with it because I can’t find one, well that will seal the deal just a little more!!
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#89 Riccardo_italy

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 07:33 AM

Markus, if the requirement is 100pc a year, what about a medium Dall-Kirkham with a price tag around 1500€?

 

I may well be wrong, but I don't see a niche in the refractor market for something that is new AND that can be sold in large quantities.


Edited by Riccardo_italy, 03 February 2020 - 07:34 AM.


#90 APM M.Ludes

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 11:15 AM

Riccardo

 

A DK for 1500 € could maybe done in China in chinese quality.

 

I m happy to custom build such scopes , but I am not ready or happy to make a massproduction chinese reflections, thats not me, please understand



#91 asyx77

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 05:39 PM

Hello Markus,

 

I think a 170mm Doublet would be a great Idea, APM etablished an affordable 6 inch ED Apo on the market, before the APM 152 was on the market, we had to spend a lot of money for a 6 inch Apo. In my opinion the next very interesting step would be a 170mm Doublet ED Apo, maybe if it´s possible with FPL 51 glasses and F8 ratio.

 

Best

Ernst Christian


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#92 dhferguson

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 06:25 PM

Cheers,

 

Hi Markus et al. I like your 140mm and 152mm APM refractors but--face it--the triplet/ED markets are pretty saturated at the premium and good quality levels. I have a different and 'think unique suggestion for you.

 

I recommend you make a high quality, optimized lightweight Newtonian/astrograph OTA package with the following features:

--10" f/4 (large enough to be of great interest to APers, small enough to mount well on sub-premium mounts such as the Losmandy G-11 or larger Celestron offerings,

--lightweight (<30 lb total, please) and rapid-cooling primary mirror, perhaps of cellular construction. Mirror cell would need to be lightweight: probably 9 or 18-point (try using PLOP before discussing w/the Chinese manufacturer),

--corrected nearly unvignetted field sufficiently large for a full-frame DLSR (& maybe supply a smaller, quick-change secondary for optimized visual use?). This probably means a corrector group that fixes field curvature and coma (kinda like a Paracorr 2?, consider partnering with Televue to source the optics, then mount it yourself at the bottom of the focuser tube?),

--lightweight, probably graphite truss with robust fabric cover,

--unique, clever primary mirror collimation scheme that can be quickly adjusted from the eyepiece (a built-in/swing-in Cat's Eye or laser maybe?),

--APM-like focuser, perhaps with electric stepper focus as an option,

--adequate focuser travel for both visual and AP,

--system Strehl (to the eyepiece or camera) > 0.96,

--thin-vaned but rigid secondary spider

--rotating tube rings and a method (SW?) to correct for coning,

--Losmandy-style plate for ease-of-attachment to various mounts,

--supply tube counterweights to balance the focuser/camera/finder

--10 (or so) x 50mm finder/guidescope FIRMLY MOUNTED to the truss. Two eyepieces: lit crosshair for visual and no crosshair for AP, and

--a nice case for the OTA.

 

I believe all of this is well within the capacity of KUO or other Chinese manufacturers, even the somewhat high quality primary and secondary mirrors(I recommend you screen them--especially the secondary(s)--as Stellarvue used to do for it's Access refractor line). BTW, for example, some of the GSO primary mirrors are pretty good and you can specify a lower-end optical quality cutoff with any of them. Your marketing edge is the fact you are selling a complete package (this is the Celestron/Meade secret, they can sell systems, not just SCT tubes): a highly competent visual/AP telescope that can be mounted on a number of available mounts (some of which you might also sell). Not only that, you should be able to make a fair profit on this high-quality but moderate-price product.

 

Happy observing always,

 

Don



#93 mogur

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 07:03 PM

As has already been hinted at, most scope designs and sizes have saturated the market to the point of confusion for new buyers. Why does your "new" project even need to be a scope? There are bigger needs in the affordable heavy-duty mount market that may be more profitable. Visually, the bino-scope seems to be the current favorite of the masses. How about building a 200mm bino along the lines of the 150? It could be offered with a dedicated mount (or not) to hold it. An effort should be made to keep it as light as possible for ease of handling. Offer it only with 90° EP orientation, as that seems to be preferred for astronomy. Probably need to be an FPL-53 triplet in order to keep color under control. Anyone think this is too big? grin.gif



#94 Richard Whalen

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 12:40 AM

180mm f12 doublet. With it offer a alt/az Berry style mount (aluminum mechanics) and wood tripod for those who dont have or can afford a large GEM. At f12 easier to make, chance for decent quality and CA control. Would make for a great visual scope. Will still fit in a van or pickup truck for those who want to travel with it. With a good case could travel on a roof rack of a car.



#95 Riccardo_italy

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 05:34 AM

Riccardo

 

A DK for 1500 € could maybe done in China in chinese quality.

 

I m happy to custom build such scopes , but I am not ready or happy to make a massproduction chinese reflections, thats not me, please understand

Hello Markus, thanks for the reply.

 

In Europe Takahashi prices are much higher (around €2200-2300), but in the US the official price of a Mewlon 180 is $1900=1700€. I'm very surpised that at a 1500€ price tag there's nothing but a mass produced chinese scope.

 

Even adding VAT to the Mewlon US price, we arrive at around €2000. My proposed price, 1500€, is just 25% less than a premium imported and handmade japanese scope. A comparable chinese scope (the 8" CC) costs around €1000.

 

My idea was that, at this price point, it would have been possible to produce something in between Takahashi and chinese quality.

 

PS: you know much better than me, I'm just curious smile.gif


Edited by Riccardo_italy, 04 February 2020 - 05:42 AM.


#96 nicknacknock

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 06:17 AM

Riccardo,

 

A couple of things that affect price IMHO:

 

1. 4.3% Optics Tax in the European Union as an additional tax within the EU. 

 

2. Takahashi has already amortized the cost of development of the Mewlon range - a long time ago. Markus, starting from scratch (even by heavily borrowing on the design), would have to sell a sufficient number of scopes to:

 - Cover development and testing cost

 - Allow sufficient margin for dealers

 - Make a buck or two for himself (including also his time for working on such a project as opposed to something else that would bring in money. Time IS money)



#97 Astrohobby

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 11:35 AM

I still think something like the Mewlon, but cheaper, will sell.

 

The Mewlon 180 sells well (and, to a minor extent, also the Mewlon 210).

 

The GSO Classical Cassegrains sell well, even if those scopes have a lot of problem (it seems they do not work at full aperture, a very large CO etc..).

 

What I have in mind is something in between Takahashi and GSO in term of quality (which is the quality level APM targets), using the DK configuration (cheaper to make, easier to collimate), at around 200mm. The scope has to be clearly different w.r.t. a C8.

 

This scope can ever cover the market of the large Maksutovs, expecially now that Intes Micro has disappeared.

 

Maybe, to further differentiate from the C8, a 180mm and a 230mm.....

Hi there,

but never up with the quality features like Intes Micro Deluxe provided (cooling/Quarz/wave/strehl) mirrors but there might be a market! But not at the price point of Intes Micro - and they where reasonably priced even from dealers in Europe (me buying them directly from Mr. Ziganov - owner of Intes Micro from Moscow at that time) through a friend in Russia directly - having their master opticians working on the mirrors on a little payout for their works & a bottle of surpreme Vodkha!

Not mentioning the weight of the Intes Micro scopes needing a very, very strong mount! The 12"/F12 was barley handable - out and in!!

You obviously can`t get one thing without another - at least in a closed design.

 

Cheers  Oliver


Edited by Astrohobby, 04 February 2020 - 12:10 PM.


#98 garret

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 12:50 PM

You should sell telescope optics for what they are worth, the best for the most money, which means that the optical qualities must be determined before the optics are offered.

Tubes, focusers adaptors, rings etc. are straightforward to judge.

 

Garrett van der Veen

 


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#99 garret

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 01:04 PM

 

- Allow sufficient margin for dealers

APM is a dealer that also sells its own products, I think other dealers are not waiting to sell APM products that APM also sells.

The APM brand name should be a true factory brand-name having a world-wide dealer and service network and no direct sale to costumers. 

 

Garrett



#100 APM M.Ludes

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 05:46 AM

Hello Everybody

 

we came up with a few ideas on which we start working now

 

1, we will try to make our APM-Max-Load AltAZ Mount usable with DSC like Nexus, something customers asking us since years. Maybe 2020 is the year to do it.

 

2, Last Year in November during a 3 week business trip in China, one of my partners installed a OS Fork Mount loaded with big apos for solar observations, 8" and 10" Petzval , the optical quality have been not bad , the centering/collimation was not perfect but also not that bad. The prices has been very low, the colorcorrection has been great. When the current situation in China gets good again, I plan a visit of the factory who make this apo. I believe with this quality and price structure , we should be ablt to produce a 7" at really such asked low cost. The cell need improvements, but thats something we can do and handle.


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