Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Paint as Formica substitute

  • Please log in to reply
31 replies to this topic

#1 Lognic04

Lognic04

    Apollo

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,213
  • Joined: 21 May 2017
  • Loc: Melbourne, Aus

Posted 16 January 2020 - 09:23 PM

Hi all,
Rebuilding my 10" as a truss (finally...) And refiguring it, both are going suprisingly well! Now thing is, it's very tricky to get ebony star Formica down under. Most scope makers now use a hammer finish paint, and the actual paint used seems to be closely guarded. Wondering if anyone knows which paint this might be?
Cheers,
Logan.
  • Augustus likes this

#2 jtsenghas

jtsenghas

    Aurora

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,663
  • Joined: 14 Sep 2014
  • Loc: The flatlands of Northwest Ohio 41.11N --Bloomdale

Posted 16 January 2020 - 09:32 PM

I can tell you that Krylon Black hammered finish paint does dry surprisingly textured with smooth bumps and repeated applications increase this.  In fact,  if you apply slightly heavier coats the effect is greater. 

 

Here's a view of that paint on a patch on a scope I'm refurbishing.   The area painted was patched,  filled with epoxy filler,  sanded and painted. 

 

20200111_184131_compress50.jpg



#3 Lognic04

Lognic04

    Apollo

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,213
  • Joined: 21 May 2017
  • Loc: Melbourne, Aus

Posted 16 January 2020 - 09:46 PM

I can tell you that Krylon Black hammered finish paint does dry surprisingly textured with smooth bumps and repeated applications increase this. In fact, if you apply slightly heavier coats the effect is greater.

Here's a view of that paint on a patch on a scope I'm refurbishing. The area painted was patched, filled with epoxy filler, sanded and painted.

20200111_184131_compress50.jpg

Thanks for that!!
Do you reckon that would be a good substitute for Formica? Any chance you could test it with a piece of Teflon?
Cheers

#4 Pinbout

Pinbout

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 23,342
  • Joined: 22 Feb 2010

Posted 16 January 2020 - 10:07 PM

 

ebony star Formica

That is sooooo wrong. Ha ha ha

 

first ebony star is a color - by wilsonart, not Formica.

 

2nd any Formica type -42 (crystal finish) will do. Color is only for look.

 

look for frp - used In Bathrooms. It’s bumpy, harder to cut. 

 

teeter is getting his stuff powder coated that textured. You’d have to send out.



#5 Lognic04

Lognic04

    Apollo

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,213
  • Joined: 21 May 2017
  • Loc: Melbourne, Aus

Posted 16 January 2020 - 10:36 PM

That is sooooo wrong. Ha ha ha

first ebony star is a color - by wilsonart, not Formica.

2nd any Formica type -42 (crystal finish) will do. Color is only for look.

look for frp - used In Bathrooms. It’s bumpy, harder to cut.

teeter is getting his stuff powder coated that textured. You’d have to send out.

Hah sorry. But I'm telling you, literally can't find any Formica here in Aus. I'll Google that

#6 vtornado

vtornado

    Vanguard

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,484
  • Joined: 22 Jan 2016
  • Loc: Northern Illinois

Posted 16 January 2020 - 10:46 PM

I built a stand for my 12 inch skywatcher dob.

 

For my trunions to ride on I used strips of milk bottle plastic. HDPE

I am looking for the same plastic in a thicker guage, but for as stop gap it is working.

I'm sure it will eventually wear through.

A detergent bottle may be thicker. 



#7 Bob4BVM

Bob4BVM

    Vanguard

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,114
  • Joined: 23 Mar 2015
  • Loc: W. Oregon

Posted 16 January 2020 - 11:43 PM

HI Logan,

I have to laugh when I see people always saying it has to be this or that specific formica*** in order to work...

I have lost count of the number of Dob-type mounts I have built, almost every one used a different type of formica ***

I used what was easily available & / or cheap. I still have a number of those mounts and frankly I see zero difference in how they perform. All have the same feel with Teflon or UHMW bearing pads riding against the laminate.

My last few Dob/Berry type mounts have all used the same maroon-colored semi-smooth formica, just because I got a full sheet of it at home depot for $10 because it was damaged. Again, they all work fine, you would notice no difference under the stars.

 

As for ' Paint as Formica substitute', ugh, i'd have to be desparate. Maybe some exotic hard-wearing epoxy floor paint et al. But Countertop laminates are just too well suited and easy for me to consider paint !

 

CS

Bob

 

PS--  ***I know "formica" is a brand name, but up here it is the generic name for any hard-surface waterproof phenolic sheet that is typically laminated to ply or particleboard for a countertop for kitchen or bathroom.  When I say  "formica" I am referring to that broad class of countertop materials. IME any of them will work for you, I wouldn't stress about one over the other  smile.gif


Edited by Bob4BVM, 17 January 2020 - 12:06 AM.

  • Jon Isaacs, mdowns, airbleeder and 1 other like this

#8 wells_c

wells_c

    Explorer 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 62
  • Joined: 09 Apr 2019

Posted 17 January 2020 - 02:00 AM

I used premium water based polyurethane wood floor finish on all the plywood on my 8” dob, including on the alt bearing surfaces.

The brand and type I used was Varathane Crystal Clear water based polyurethane floor finish for high traffic areas, and I used a satin finish formula. I feel like any good quality paint brand that has a line of floor finishes will have something similar. Brushes on, 1-2 hours recoat time, and if kept clean it may be recoated without sanding (though I lightly sanded the last couple coats just to ensure a smooth surface). Water clean up is a bonus.

For plywood edges in particular I really lay it on thick at first, keeping the grain wet for a while before brushing it out; the plywood really drinks it in before it’s sealed. After 2-3 coats the wood grain is buried under the finish and it becomes very smooth. I usually do 4-5 coats for things like that... When wear becomes an issue simply fine sand the existing surface and put on one or two coats, and it’s like new.

My bearings are 1” (25mm) thick and about 12” in diameter birch ply (2 half inch sheets glued together) riding on furniture slider pads which I suspect are HMW Polypropylene or polyethylene. and I think it works great. I can move my scope around very easily and have no issues with backlash or stiction. Also it seems to wear well, I’ve only recoated once, and didn’t really need to yet anyway.

#9 Jon Isaacs

Jon Isaacs

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 81,813
  • Joined: 16 Jun 2004
  • Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA

Posted 17 January 2020 - 05:48 AM

I have lost count of the number of Dob-type mounts I have built, almost every one used a different type of formica ***

 

 

Yeah..  One of my scopes has bare aluminum for the azimuth bearing.  Works good against Teflon.

 

Most of them use FRP.  My Starsplitters and my 25 inch F/5 Obsession used FRP for the bearings, they're from an era when Ebony Star was current and readily available.  

 

I would be reluctant to use paint, maybe it works but i see it embedded with dust and grime pretty quickly.  

 

Jon


  • PrestonE, Bob4BVM and Augustus like this

#10 Jeff Morgan

Jeff Morgan

    Voyager 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 11,514
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2003
  • Loc: Prescott, AZ

Posted 17 January 2020 - 09:38 AM

teeter is getting his stuff powder coated that textured. You’d have to send out.

 

Rob is using a textured powder coat called Silver Vein for his larger scopes. He sells altitude trunnions separately on his web site, I have a pair for project use.

 

I had another pair of 10" diameter rings done with this for a second project. Rob warned me the feel would be very light in that small of a size, and he was correct. Eyepiece imbalances had to be managed carefully when I was not using ServoCAT.

 

Overall, I think the powder coat is a great idea. More durable than a laminate, and very nice motion. But very slick for smaller scopes. Teeter has used this for some time, I would look at the smallest size he sells them in for guidance in your project.


  • Pinbout and Augustus like this

#11 Jon Isaacs

Jon Isaacs

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 81,813
  • Joined: 16 Jun 2004
  • Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA

Posted 17 January 2020 - 10:09 AM

Jeff:

 

What is the substrate? Wood or metal?

 

Jon



#12 Pinbout

Pinbout

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 23,342
  • Joined: 22 Feb 2010

Posted 17 January 2020 - 12:05 PM

Jeff:

 

What is the substrate? Wood or metal?

 

Jon

metal

 

powder coating is a electro magnetic process. 


  • Augustus likes this

#13 Jon Isaacs

Jon Isaacs

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 81,813
  • Joined: 16 Jun 2004
  • Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA

Posted 17 January 2020 - 12:41 PM

metal

 

powder coating is a electro magnetic process. 

 

 

There are power coating processes that can be used with certain wood products, particularly MDF.

 

https://www.powderco...g/page/PConWood

 

That's why I asked. 

 

If it's metal, I'm kind of with Bob, Aluminum on Teflon is effective.

 


5102862-Jstar Balance Cloudy Nights.jpg

 

 

Jon


  • Oregon-raybender and Oberon like this

#14 Pinbout

Pinbout

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 23,342
  • Joined: 22 Feb 2010

Posted 17 January 2020 - 01:20 PM

 

There are power coating processes that can be used with certain wood products, particularly MDF.

 

https://www.powderco...g/page/PConWood

well aware of esoteric uses...but mainly its always metal.

 

mdf on a telescope? oy very lol.gif

 

 

just order a 2'x8' sheet of 909-42 from the states. it will roll up in a small 24x12x12 box and ships a lot cheaper.



#15 Pinbout

Pinbout

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 23,342
  • Joined: 22 Feb 2010

Posted 17 January 2020 - 01:21 PM

 

the generic name for any hard-surface waterproof phenolic sheet that is typically laminated to ply or particleboard for a countertop for kitchen or bathroom.

people usually call it laminate... lol.gif lol.giflol.gif  



#16 jessebear

jessebear

    Explorer 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 85
  • Joined: 01 Oct 2019
  • Loc: Grand Junction, CO

Posted 17 January 2020 - 01:48 PM

Interesting to see the Teeter scopes are using Silver Vein powdercoat. I've been seeing that coating become increasingly popular for off road parts (rock sliders, bumpers, etc.). I very nearly went with it for a swing out bumper I had built, but went with a more finely textured satin black. I did get to see several pieces coated in Silver Vein at the shop though. It was much darker and more glossy than photos would suggest, and the texture was somewhat more coarse. 



#17 Oregon-raybender

Oregon-raybender

    Optical Research Engineer

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 686
  • Joined: 13 May 2010
  • Loc: Oregon, South Western Coast

Posted 17 January 2020 - 03:32 PM

Logan, if you Google countertops, there are many places to buy what you need. Look for a local shop who may sell/give you scrapes.

 

Starry Nightswaytogo.gif

 

https://www.polytec....s-and-laminate/


  • Bob4BVM likes this

#18 Kunama

Kunama

    Aussie at large

  • *****
  • Posts: 5,145
  • Joined: 22 Oct 2012
  • Loc: Canberra, Australia

Posted 17 January 2020 - 04:59 PM

Logan,

Paint finishes will not work on the bearing surfaces.

Laminex Industries outlets may have some superseded stock, or go to any kitchen manufacturer.

 

If you're going to use aluminium for bearing surfaces then the best powder coating to get is the Dulux Aztec Silver or Gold textured finish.

 

I used the Aztec Gold for 'Guinevere' and silver for 'Excalibur', on both scope the base of the rocker box is a powder coated aluminium plate, as are the trunnions.

It is the best surface I have found.

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • MS2_2267 copy.jpg
  • MIS_5740 copy.jpg

Edited by Kunama, 17 January 2020 - 05:02 PM.

  • lakland5 and Starman47 like this

#19 Oberon

Oberon

    Gemini

  • -----
  • Posts: 3,130
  • Joined: 24 Feb 2013
  • Loc: Hunter Valley NSW Australia

Posted 17 January 2020 - 05:05 PM

If it's metal, I'm kind of with Bob, Aluminum on Teflon is effective.

If this is true (and I don’t doubt it) then that opens up a couple of design options I’ve mentally toyed with for some time...

 

1. portable scopes that can break the trunnions down into pieces but still have a joint free bearing surface

2. Adjustable diameter trunnions for adjustable balance

 

Why aluminium? Is there any reason to think aluminium is better than other metals?



#20 Jon Isaacs

Jon Isaacs

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 81,813
  • Joined: 16 Jun 2004
  • Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA

Posted 17 January 2020 - 05:28 PM

If this is true (and I don’t doubt it) then that opens up a couple of design options I’ve mentally toyed with for some time...

 

1. portable scopes that can break the trunnions down into pieces but still have a joint free bearing surface

2. Adjustable diameter trunnions for adjustable balance

 

Why aluminium? Is there any reason to think aluminium is better than other metals?

 

As a bearing surface?  Probably not. But aluminum is a good bearing material.

 

As a material to machine, bend, fabricate, etc, it's probably the metal that's at the top of the list. Aluminum is cheap, 1/3 the density of steel and easy to work. It takes a nice polish, there are a great number of grades with a great variety of properties. 

 

In my years designing equipment for laboratory use, I gernerally chose aluminum over steel for machined parts because it was much cheaper to machine than steel.. 

 

Jon



#21 Lognic04

Lognic04

    Apollo

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,213
  • Joined: 21 May 2017
  • Loc: Melbourne, Aus

Posted 17 January 2020 - 09:31 PM

Thanks for all the replies. However, teeter DOES use paint, as he showed it off on his official Instagram account.

I would love to find out which paint this is, as I originally asked.

Screenshot_20200118-132611.png



#22 Pinbout

Pinbout

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 23,342
  • Joined: 22 Feb 2010

Posted 17 January 2020 - 09:45 PM

Try https://www.vhtpaint...e-plus-coatings



#23 jtsenghas

jtsenghas

    Aurora

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,663
  • Joined: 14 Sep 2014
  • Loc: The flatlands of Northwest Ohio 41.11N --Bloomdale

Posted 17 January 2020 - 09:53 PM

Hmmm....

 

That photo of a Teeter Trunnion doesn't look to me like the hammered finish I get with the Krylon paint I shared above. 

 

Now,  if texture is achieved with a roller,  that would permit the use of a two-part epoxy paint which can be extremely durable compared to the rattle can hammered finish paint I used cosmetically.

 

Even if a two part paint isn't used there are some very hard curing paints that can be applied with a roller. I wonder what "gel paint" that roller is applying. 

 

I'm aware that Mr. Teeter is winding down his scope building business,  but he does frequent these pages. Could someone who knows his username who is following along inquire politely if he could chime in? 


Edited by jtsenghas, 17 January 2020 - 10:01 PM.


#24 Jeff Morgan

Jeff Morgan

    Voyager 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 11,514
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2003
  • Loc: Prescott, AZ

Posted 18 January 2020 - 12:39 AM

Jeff:

 

What is the substrate? Wood or metal?

 

Jon

Aluminum. Not solid castings like you would get from Obsession. Rob explained costs would be much higher, and the product much heavier.

 

Not sure what the correct name for the construction method is. Ribbed? Photo attached. Notice the welds.

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_3540.jpeg

  • Jon Isaacs likes this

#25 Starman47

Starman47

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 681
  • Joined: 10 Jun 2018
  • Loc: Middle Tennessee

Posted 18 January 2020 - 06:34 AM

I think that Ryan Goodson at NMT may also use powder coated bearings. http://newmoontelesc...oduct/bearings/


Edited by Starman47, 18 January 2020 - 07:35 AM.



CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics