Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Are these fake or legit Zeiss 8x30B

  • Please log in to reply
82 replies to this topic

#1 shredder1656

shredder1656

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,786
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2017
  • Loc: Indiana

Posted 25 January 2020 - 08:25 AM

So, I am leaning heavily towards fake, at this point.  But, to hopefully confirm unequivocally, I decided to post the question here.  If they are fake, I hope this will help others avoid making a mistake in the future.  If they are real, which at this point I doubt, then, well, that is a good thing. 

 

I posted them for sale, because they eyecups don't allow me to use them comfortably vs the bridge of my nose.  I am not quite a cyclops, but my IPD is narrow.  I advertised them as Zeiss, because I thought they were.  Someone pointed out that he did not believe they were, and explained why.

 

The initial problem with his point was that what he pointed out I had already considered and dismissed.  I had posted some questions elsewhere a few months ago, and researched it as well.  Previously, I had concluded that they were legit.  However, he pointed out some other things, and has me leaning towards a conviction beyond reasonable doubt.  I wanted to see if there are any other factors that will solidify the verdict one way or the other. 

 

I had "researched" to the point that I clarified the serial number coincided/conformed with/to Zeiss' records.  The number indicated a production date in approximately 1971.  This information, along with, during PREVIOUS online discussions, information I was given, led me to conclude that these were legitimate. 

 

So, let me have it.  What do you think?

 

20190309_163116.jpg

20190309_163209.jpg

20190309_163317.jpg

20190309_163425.jpg

 

 



#2 shredder1656

shredder1656

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,786
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2017
  • Loc: Indiana

Posted 25 January 2020 - 08:26 AM

Here are a few pics of the case too:

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20200124_051202.jpg
  • 20200124_051356.jpg


#3 shredder1656

shredder1656

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,786
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2017
  • Loc: Indiana

Posted 25 January 2020 - 08:27 AM

Last of them:

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20200124_051421.jpg
  • 20200124_051516.jpg

Edited by shredder1656, 25 January 2020 - 08:28 AM.


#4 junomike

junomike

    ISS

  • *****
  • Moderators
  • Posts: 21,439
  • Joined: 07 Sep 2009
  • Loc: Ontario

Posted 25 January 2020 - 09:27 AM

Wow, they sure look legit to me (of course I'm no expert).


  • 25585 and shredder1656 like this

#5 MikeTahtib

MikeTahtib

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,216
  • Joined: 10 Oct 2016

Posted 25 January 2020 - 09:37 AM

If they were made in 1971, wouldn't they say made in W. Germany?

I'm no expert on binoculars, but I remember seeing things marked that way.


  • Michael Covington and shredder1656 like this

#6 Russell Smith

Russell Smith

    Vanguard

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,087
  • Joined: 27 Aug 2017
  • Loc: 76707

Posted 25 January 2020 - 09:47 AM

They are marked exactly like mine. I have no clue on date.

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • rps202001z25_073450.jpg

  • Michael Covington and shredder1656 like this

#7 Foss

Foss

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 895
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2012

Posted 25 January 2020 - 10:32 AM

You might weigh them and compare that against a known sample--highly unlikely an all-out counterfeit would weight exactly the same. Likewise, measuring the exit pupil might give important information. Is the view Zeiss quality or not? Can you roughly compare the perceived FOV with another 8° bino you have? Lastly, what do you see when you photo-compare down to the tiniest detail?


Edited by Foss, 25 January 2020 - 10:32 AM.

  • shredder1656 likes this

#8 Yarddog

Yarddog

    Ranger 4

  • -----
  • Posts: 379
  • Joined: 20 Aug 2019

Posted 25 January 2020 - 11:25 AM

They look fine to me. Not that I would necessarily know.

 

I think the most obvious thing is how they perform.


  • Swedpat and shredder1656 like this

#9 FrankL

FrankL

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 718
  • Joined: 30 Jul 2009
  • Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:18 PM

Both binocular and case are legitimate. Not all Oberkochens are marked Made in West Germany; I have some that are marked Germany.

 

See this BirdForum discussion for a good overview of the various Porro I Oberkochen 8x30's: https://www.birdforu...ad.php?t=384860


Edited by FrankL, 25 January 2020 - 12:21 PM.

  • shredder1656 likes this

#10 shredder1656

shredder1656

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,786
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2017
  • Loc: Indiana

Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:26 PM

If they were made in 1971, wouldn't they say made in W. Germany?

I'm no expert on binoculars, but I remember seeing things marked that way.

So, that was pointed out to me, and is one of the factors that I considered today.  However, look at the first photo in this article.  Doesn't the bino in that photo say "Made in Germany" too?  Plus, Russell's do as well. 

 

Also, the bino in the photo has a 6 digit serial number.  So, the 6 vs 7 serial number seems to be a bust. 

 

???

 

They are marked exactly like mine. I have no clue on date.

 

 

You might weigh them and compare that against a known sample--highly unlikely an all-out counterfeit would weight exactly the same. Likewise, measuring the exit pupil might give important information. Is the view Zeiss quality or not? Can you roughly compare the perceived FOV with another 8° bino you have? Lastly, what do you see when you photo-compare down to the tiniest detail?

I do not have a scale that will be that accurate, but that is a good suggestion.

 

Not sure how to measure the exit pupil.  But, another good suggestion.

 

Regarding their quality.  The view is really good, but not any better than something like my Audubon 820 ED (.5 more power and larger aperture), or my Tamron Rangemaster.  Those are probably my only two that are relatively close to these in image quality.  But, honestly, I cannot say that the Zeiss (or, whatever they actually are) have sharper images or better.

 

I have some Bushnell Customs with 8* fov.  Based on the Zeiss info in this article, I don't think these 8x30s are a comparable FOV. 

 

Regarding the "tiniest detail" besides the "West" vs. plain "Germany" origin, I am not sure that any other details push me towards a fake.

 

The person(s) that I PM'd mentioned the prism cover plate writing.  However, comparing it to other pics online, I do not see a distinct difference.  That is, unless the comparison pics are fakes too. 

 

I am probably more confused now. 

 

They look fine to me. Not that I would necessarily know.

 

I think the most obvious thing is how they perform.

Performance is as stated above.  Not distinctly better than my Audubon 820ED or Tamron Rangemaster.

 

???



#11 shredder1656

shredder1656

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,786
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2017
  • Loc: Indiana

Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:31 PM

Both binocular and case are legitimate. Not all Oberkochens are marked Made in West Germany; I have some that are marked Germany.

 

See this BirdForum discussion for a good overview of the various Porro I Oberkochen 8x30's: https://www.birdforu...ad.php?t=384860

Thanks, Frank.  That is what I am concluding.  The origin detail is not a reliable indicator.  So far, I am back to thinking that mine are legit. 

 

However...

 

Looking at this prism cover plate, any issues with the writing?  Some have said that these appear to be poorly engraved, vs the fact that Zeiss stamps their name on the plates.

 

???

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20190309_163317.jpg


#12 Russell Smith

Russell Smith

    Vanguard

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,087
  • Joined: 27 Aug 2017
  • Loc: 76707

Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:43 PM

Better photo.

Not an exact match but mine seem to be engraved also.

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • rps20200bb125_115107.jpg

Edited by Russell Smith, 25 January 2020 - 12:55 PM.

  • shredder1656 likes this

#13 Ant1

Ant1

    Messenger

  • *****
  • Posts: 496
  • Joined: 17 Feb 2016

Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:53 PM

Hi

 

Your pair seems genuine to me.

Correct shape and details, correct pebble grain leatherette, correct engravings, correct case.

If these were fake, they would be an incredibly well made replica. And I'm not aware of fake Zeiss West 8x30 around.

 

Regards,

Ant1


  • shredder1656 likes this

#14 Binojunky

Binojunky

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 5,868
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2010

Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:54 PM

Could be an East German pair? though if memory serves me well they were marked Made in East Germany, the one the OP shows look legit to me, D


  • shredder1656 likes this

#15 shredder1656

shredder1656

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,786
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2017
  • Loc: Indiana

Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:55 PM

Thanks, Frank.  That is what I am concluding.  The origin detail is not a reliable indicator.  So far, I am back to thinking that mine are legit. 

 

However...

 

Looking at this prism cover plate, any issues with the writing?  Some have said that these appear to be poorly engraved, vs the fact that Zeiss stamps their name on the plates.

 

???

 

 

Let me muddy the waters for ya Scott. 

Thanks!!!  lol.gif

 

Well, to me there really is a distinct difference in the near perfection of the engraving or stamping on yours vs the over-run in the horizontal line that separates "Carl" and "Zeiss", as well as the stops on several of the other characters.

 

But...the shape of the letters is very similar.  I see a bit of a stop-defect in your "3" and MAYBE another spot or two.  Might be my imagination, though. 

 

Does that mean anything to anyone?


  • Michael Covington likes this

#16 shredder1656

shredder1656

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,786
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2017
  • Loc: Indiana

Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:58 PM

Hi

 

Your pair seems genuine to me.

Correct shape and details, correct pebble grain leatherette, correct engravings, correct case.

If these were fake, they would be an incredibly well made replica. And I'm not aware of fake Zeiss West 8x30 around.

 

Regards,

Ant1

Thanks, but that is one of the points that the person that PM's me made. 

 

He claimed that a REAL Zeiss prism cover plate is STAMPED, but NOT engraved. 

 

Can you confirm? 



#17 Foss

Foss

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 895
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2012

Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:08 PM

Hey Shredder

I do not have a scale that will be that accurate, but that is a good suggestion.

 

Not sure how to measure the exit pupil.  But, another good suggestion.

Just Google it when you find the time...handy to know

 

Regarding their quality.  The view is really good, but not any better than something like my Audubon 820 ED (.5 more power and larger aperture), or my Tamron Rangemaster.  Those are probably my only two that are relatively close to these in image quality.  But, honestly, I cannot say that the Zeiss (or, whatever they actually are) have sharper images or better.

That's about what I'd expect.

 

I have some Bushnell Customs with 8* fov.  Based on the Zeiss info in this article, I don't think these 8x30s are a comparable FOV.

I'd definitely compare the two outdoors. Zeiss did produce an 8°30' version of teh 8x30s. Check your messages for an older ad. I'd assume the wider angle models are more valuable to you.

 

Regarding the "tiniest detail" besides the "West" vs. plain "Germany" origin, I am not sure that any other details push me towards a fake.

I didn't either so that's good in that it means the main components are Zeiss--or someone spent $500k on tooling and production to net $5k on counterfeit sales. More prevalent are cases of switched components such as cover plates.


  • shredder1656 likes this

#18 Ant1

Ant1

    Messenger

  • *****
  • Posts: 496
  • Joined: 17 Feb 2016

Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:10 PM

Hi,

 

I've never seen a stamped one on these.

Right here I have a 1957 model, I've completely disassembled for cleaning and adjusting, I can assure you it's a genuine one.

Here's the pic of the engraved prism plate.

 

Regards

Ant1

 

242809.jpg


  • hallelujah, Russell Smith and shredder1656 like this

#19 hallelujah

hallelujah

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,024
  • Joined: 14 Jul 2006
  • Loc: North Star over Colorado

Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:19 PM

Looks like a good time to put it back in the CN Classifieds section. waytogo.gif

 

Stan


  • Russell Smith and shredder1656 like this

#20 shredder1656

shredder1656

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,786
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2017
  • Loc: Indiana

Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:20 PM

Hey Shredder

I do not have a scale that will be that accurate, but that is a good suggestion.

 

Not sure how to measure the exit pupil.  But, another good suggestion.

Just Google it when you find the time...handy to know

 

Regarding their quality.  The view is really good, but not any better than something like my Audubon 820 ED (.5 more power and larger aperture), or my Tamron Rangemaster.  Those are probably my only two that are relatively close to these in image quality.  But, honestly, I cannot say that the Zeiss (or, whatever they actually are) have sharper images or better.

That's about what I'd expect.

 

I have some Bushnell Customs with 8* fov.  Based on the Zeiss info in this article, I don't think these 8x30s are a comparable FOV.

I'd definitely compare the two outdoors. Zeiss did produce an 8°30' version of teh 8x30s. Check your messages for an older ad. I'd assume the wider angle models are more valuable to you.

 

Regarding the "tiniest detail" besides the "West" vs. plain "Germany" origin, I am not sure that any other details push me towards a fake.

I didn't either so that's good in that it means the main components are Zeiss--or someone spent $500k on tooling and production to net $5k on counterfeit sales. More prevalent are cases of switched components such as cover plates.

 

 

Hi,

 

I've never seen a stamped one on these.

Right here I have a 1957 model, I've completely disassembled for cleaning and adjusting, I can assure you it's a genuine one.

Here's the pic of the engraved prism plate.

 

Regards

Ant1

 

242809.jpg

Well, I appreciate all of the info from both of you and all the rest.  I started out thinking I had been flim-flammed a year ago, but now I am back to being convinced that these are genuine. 

 

I will say my engraving seems to be just a little bit rougher than both of the other photos here, but not so much that it negates all of the other points that lean towards the genuine article. 

 

I am sure the PM'r meant well, but so far, no one agrees with his analysis.

 

I guess I will put them back on the classifieds, because no matter how genuine, the eye-cups still hit me in the schnoz.  I wish they didn't, because I like them and their squatty beauty. 


  • Russell Smith likes this

#21 Russell Smith

Russell Smith

    Vanguard

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,087
  • Joined: 27 Aug 2017
  • Loc: 76707

Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:30 PM

Seems to me that stamped would indicate a fake.

List them puppies 



#22 PEterW

PEterW

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,551
  • Joined: 02 Jan 2006
  • Loc: SW London, UK

Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:32 PM

If you like the view.... what’s the issue. Not surprised they won’t better an Audubon or Rangemaster, they’re top drawer too.
Enjoy
Peter

#23 hallelujah

hallelujah

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,024
  • Joined: 14 Jul 2006
  • Loc: North Star over Colorado

Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:35 PM

 

I guess I will put them back on the classifieds, because no matter how genuine, the eye-cups still hit me in the schnoz.  I wish they didn't, because I like them and their squatty beauty. 

I'm sure that you could find replacement eyecups aftermarket.

 

https://www.edmundop...s&Tab=Products#

 

Stan

 

 


  • shredder1656 likes this

#24 FrankL

FrankL

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 718
  • Joined: 30 Jul 2009
  • Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:48 PM

I agree that the marking with those over-runs does not look correct, but in all other respects the binocular looks perfectly like an original and I still think it is. I believe that somebody for some reason tried to enhance or redo the Carl Zeiss marking by tracing inside the original marking with a finely pointed sharp instrument and hence, the overruns.


  • Michael Covington and shredder1656 like this

#25 shredder1656

shredder1656

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,786
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2017
  • Loc: Indiana

Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:49 PM

If you like the view.... what’s the issue. Not surprised they won’t better an Audubon or Rangemaster, they’re top drawer too.
Enjoy
Peter

Well, when I had them listed, a guy contacted me and had me almost convinced that they were fakes.  I did not want to sell them to someone as the real thing, if they actually were fakes.  So, that was the issue.

 

If you mean, why am I selling them, I don't like how they fit my face.   




CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics