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Are these fake or legit Zeiss 8x30B

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#26 Ant1

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 02:19 PM

...I didn't want to suggest it but the thought crossed my mind as well!

Ant1

#27 shredder1656

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 02:43 PM

 

 

Stan
 

 

 

 

I do not know the guy, but the thought crossed my mind too.  However, in his defense, he never voiced interest in them.  He just came across as if he was attempting to be informative. 

 

But... 

 

Who knows? 


Edited by shredder1656, 25 January 2020 - 07:01 PM.

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#28 davidmcgo

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 02:51 PM

The only documented fakes were Jenoptem 8x30, 10x50, and maybe some 7x50 all DDR models with housing shapes like the common Japanese binoculars of the 1970s.  I have never seen anything about copies of the Zeiss West models.

 

Holger Merlitz has a good write up:

 

http://www.holgermer...e/jenoptem.html

 

Note the engraving or stamped logo is filled with a white paint stick and some level of overflow is possible at sharp corners from how the paint fills in the recess.  Anyway, they look like the genuine article to me and with confirmed serial number from Zeiss, I wouldn’t have any doubts on them.
 

Dave


Edited by davidmcgo, 25 January 2020 - 02:51 PM.

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#29 Corcaroli78

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 03:15 PM

I do not know the guy, but the thought crossed my mind too.  However, in his defense, he never voiced interest in them.  He just came across as if he was attempting to be informative. 

 

But... 

 

Who knows? 

It looks legit to me. 

 

Until now, i have not seen a vintage fake Zeiss West bino (another history with the outsourced japanese Carl Zeiss Jena ). A counterfeit Zeiss probably will not pass the test of the optical quality (e.g. FOV)

 

Both the case and the binocular are in line with the condition of real Zeiss West 8x30´s available here in Europe.

 

Carlos 


Edited by Corcaroli78, 25 January 2020 - 03:15 PM.

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#30 hallelujah

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 03:37 PM

However, in his defense, he never voiced interest in them. 

He just came across as if he was attempting to be informative.

It's a good thing that you decided to check things out on the Binoculars Forum, once again. graduate.sml.gif

 

Stan
 


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#31 fsphotography

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 04:47 PM

Thank you Stan for your slur on my integrity. I firmly believe this bino to be a fake and have no interest in buying them at any price. As a fellow CN member i felt i should contact Scott and express my concern, i also advised him to ask the question and post his pics here on CN. I have several pairs of Zeiss bino's and for you information all are very cleanly stamped, not engraved,  and filled with white paint,no over runs or wobbly figures anywhere.

Zeiss did not and do not hand engrave,if they did i'm sure such poor engraving would never have passed their

quality control. I base my opinion on the basis of the quality of the bino's in front of me,i notice you don't show

any Zeiss in your list of equipment, as don't most of the others who voiced their opinions.

Halleluyah indeed.

Frank.


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#32 shredder1656

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 05:15 PM

Thank you Stan for your slur on my integrity. I firmly believe this bino to be a fake and have no interest in buying them at any price. As a fellow CN member i felt i should contact Scott and express my concern, i also advised him to ask the question and post his pics here on CN. I have several pairs of Zeiss bino's and for you information all are very cleanly stamped, not engraved,  and filled with white paint,no over runs or wobbly figures anywhere.

Zeiss did not and do not hand engrave,if they did i'm sure such poor engraving would never have passed their

quality control. I base my opinion on the basis of the quality of the bino's in front of me,i notice you don't show

any Zeiss in your list of equipment, as don't most of the others who voiced their opinions.

Halleluyah indeed.

Frank.

Just so you know, I did not mention your name here.  I do not think that anyone intended to slur your integrity, and I certainly did not.  In fact, I mentioned that you did not even mention being interested, and appeared to only have the intention of making me informed.

 

I do NOT want to sell something to someone with concerns about the item's legitimacy.  So, from that angle, thank you. 

 

There is one person interested, at this point anyway, in the binos.  I have informed them of the controversy.  I directed them to this thread too. 

 

I was going to link to it in the ad, but I was not sure that would be allowed.  So, I plan to PM each potential buyer (unless the current party buys them) with a link to this thread.  Then, they can make their own decision. 

 

Unless there is unequivocal evidence for either side, I do not think I can confidently say "yay" or "nay".  I will leave it up to them, or if they don't sell, continue to enjoy them with a slightly pinched nose.  lol.gif  Regardless, I think you intentions were informative.  Thank you.


Edited by shredder1656, 25 January 2020 - 05:20 PM.

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#33 Yarddog

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 05:18 PM

Thank you Stan for your slur on my integrity. I firmly believe this bino to be a fake and have no interest in buying them at any price. As a fellow CN member i felt i should contact Scott and express my concern, i also advised him to ask the question and post his pics here on CN. I have several pairs of Zeiss bino's and for you information all are very cleanly stamped, not engraved,  and filled with white paint,no over runs or wobbly figures anywhere.

Zeiss did not and do not hand engrave,if they did i'm sure such poor engraving would never have passed their

quality control. I base my opinion on the basis of the quality of the bino's in front of me,i notice you don't show

any Zeiss in your list of equipment, as don't most of the others who voiced their opinions.

Halleluyah indeed.

Frank.

It sounds like you were trying to be helpful. It is always good to have skeptics or critics. It is also good to discuss these things as we tend to learn from such.

 

I personally would guess they are real but admit there are people who know a lot more and you are probably one of them.


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#34 pat in los angeles basin

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 06:07 PM

Is there anything  particular to japanese  or german binoculars internally that might clarify it's heritage? Different screw threads, different marking on prisms? Speaking of prisms, are they high index or BK7? Any difference in methods of clamping prisms or the characteristic of holding the  prism to it's shelf? Never had a german bin so I'm interested from the standpoint of understanding the internals from a disassembly/cleaning standpoint.  Regards, Pat


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#35 hallelujah

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 06:23 PM

Thank you Stan for your slur on my integrity..........

i notice you don't showany Zeiss in your list of equipment,

as don't most of the others who voiced their opinions.

 

Frank.

My bad......

I deleted my sarcasm.....

Please accept my humble apologies.......

 

Some day I hope to own a Zeiss 20x60 IS binocular.

 

Stan
 


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#36 opticchase

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 07:38 PM

These are  Zeiss West German.  Mine look exactly like that as do my 8x50s, 10x50s and 15x60s from that exact era..  Cases all match yours and the serial number is in the right range.  Marking is exact. Not likely that a fraud as accurate as this would be the only one I have seen in my 40 years of collecting.  Also some company that went to the trouble to replicate this glass  would have tried to make his expense pay off by making a few i would think.


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#37 FrankL

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 08:29 PM

Is there anything  particular to japanese  or german binoculars internally that might clarify it's heritage? Different screw threads, different marking on prisms? Speaking of prisms, are they high index or BK7? Any difference in methods of clamping prisms or the characteristic of holding the  prism to it's shelf? Never had a german bin so I'm interested from the standpoint of understanding the internals from a disassembly/cleaning standpoint.  Regards, Pat

I've had two of these Zeiss Oberkochen 8x30's and a distinguishing feature of them is a flexible rubber sleeve sealing the eyepiece assembly to the eyepiece barrel to prevent ingress of moisture or dust when focusing. As noted in the BirdForum link referenced in Post #9 there were several variations of this binocular manufactured so I can't be sure that they all had this rubber sleeve in the oculars but I suspect they may have. If your binocular has them it would be evidence that it is genuine. However, the rubber sleeve cannot be detected without some disassembly (i.e. removal of the bridge containing the eyepiece assemblies) except for the presence of a small notched retaining ring at the base of each eyepiece assembly which secures the sleeve to the assembly.


Edited by FrankL, 25 January 2020 - 08:30 PM.

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#38 shredder1656

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 08:45 PM

I've had two of these Zeiss Oberkochen 8x30's and a distinguishing feature of them is a flexible rubber sleeve sealing the eyepiece assembly to the eyepiece barrel to prevent ingress of moisture or dust when focusing. As noted in the BirdForum link referenced in Post #9 there were several variations of this binocular manufactured so I can't be sure that they all had this rubber sleeve in the oculars but I suspect they may have. If your binocular has them it would be evidence that it is genuine. However, the rubber sleeve cannot be detected without some disassembly (i.e. removal of the bridge containing the eyepiece assemblies) except for the presence of a small notched retaining ring at the base of each eyepiece assembly which secures the sleeve to the assembly.

This is not the retaining ring to which you are referring, is it?

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#39 FrankL

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 09:54 PM

It looks like it. If it is it should have two notches on opposite sides from each other in order to unscrew it so that the rubber sleeve can be released in order to remove the ocular assembly. A special tool would have been required to do this and lacking this tool removal of this retaining ring is difficult.

 

There are not many binoculars which have this rubber sleeved ocular, and actually, the only other one I've encountered is rather unexpectedly a Polish PZO. 


Edited by FrankL, 25 January 2020 - 09:57 PM.

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#40 opticchase

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 12:01 AM

The rubber eyecups were made to roll down. Try that for fit.


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#41 SMark

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 01:17 AM

Thank you Stan for your slur on my integrity. I firmly believe this bino to be a fake and have no interest in buying them at any price. As a fellow CN member i felt i should contact Scott and express my concern, i also advised him to ask the question and post his pics here on CN. I have several pairs of Zeiss bino's and for you information all are very cleanly stamped, not engraved,  and filled with white paint,no over runs or wobbly figures anywhere.

Zeiss did not and do not hand engrave,if they did i'm sure such poor engraving would never have passed their

quality control. I base my opinion on the basis of the quality of the bino's in front of me,i notice you don't show

any Zeiss in your list of equipment, as don't most of the others who voiced their opinions.

Halleluyah indeed.

Frank.

Is it possible that this particular binocular has been previously refurbished, and perhaps painted? 


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#42 fsphotography

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 02:30 AM

SMarK anything is possible. It appears to me that you have had more experience with binos than most on this forum,what do you think? Doe's that logo really appear correct to you?

Frank.


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#43 opticchase

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 02:32 AM

These are  Zeiss West German.  Mine look exactly like that as do my 8x50s, 10x50s and 15x60s from that exact era..  Cases all match yours and the serial number is in the right range.  Marking is exact. Not likely that a fraud as accurate as this would be the only one I have seen in my 40 years of collecting.  Also some company that went to the trouble to replicate this glass  would have tried to make his expense pay off by making a few i would think.

One change to my post.  The 8x30 Zeiss has the focus knob in the traditional position on the bridge near the eyepieces while The other 3 Zeiss I mention have the focus wheel at the front of the bridge.

 

The B version of the 8x30 was introduced to allow for eyeglass users to focus with glasses on by rolling the rubber eyecups down.  Try that , you may find them comfortable to use.

 

Good luck


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#44 SMark

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 03:04 AM

SMarK anything is possible. It appears to me that you have had more experience with binos than most on this forum,what do you think? Doe's that logo really appear correct to you?

Frank.

I don't really know the particulars of vintage Zeiss binoculars enough to say. But I do know that Cory Suddarth can do a real bang-up job refurbishing vintage binoculars. And I know that getting the lettering right after a paint job is as much an art as it is a science. He told me that lettering a SARD Mark 43 was a significant challenge due to the shallow lettering originally used, and the typical corrosion and pitting found on the majority of used samples. He didn't do the lettering my Mark 43 since he didn't want to do a less than perfect job of it. I don't know how the lettering on the Mark 43 compares with the Zeiss in question here, but it seems entirely possible that it would be enough of a challenge that someone doing a refurbishment could have performed a less than perfect job re-lettering after a new paint job.


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#45 Ant1

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 04:58 AM

Hi,

 

 

I've had two of these Zeiss Oberkochen 8x30's and a distinguishing feature of them is a flexible rubber sleeve sealing the eyepiece assembly to the eyepiece barrel to prevent ingress of moisture or dust when focusing. As noted in the BirdForum link referenced in Post #9 there were several variations of this binocular manufactured so I can't be sure that they all had this rubber sleeve in the oculars but I suspect they may have.

I think the rubber sleeves were added in 1956, the first two years of manufacture were without ocular sealing

 

 

There are not many binoculars which have this rubber sleeved ocular, and actually, the only other one I've encountered is rather unexpectedly a Polish PZO.

The romanian IOR 7x40 has this feature, too.

 

 

 

I agree that the marking with those over-runs does not look correct, but in all other respects the binocular looks perfectly like an original and I still think it is. I believe that somebody for some reason tried to enhance or redo the Carl Zeiss marking by tracing inside the original marking with a finely pointed sharp instrument and hence, the overruns.

 

I would suggest the engravings were made using a pantograph engraving machine to duplicate and shrink a bigger pattern. Any worn or loose joint in these will result in overruns looking exactly like the ones pictured above. It's possible that QC let them through.

 

Regards,

Ant1


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#46 shredder1656

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 07:27 AM

It looks like it. If it is it should have two notches on opposite sides from each other in order to unscrew it so that the rubber sleeve can be released in order to remove the ocular assembly. A special tool would have been required to do this and lacking this tool removal of this retaining ring is difficult.

 

There are not many binoculars which have this rubber sleeved ocular, and actually, the only other one I've encountered is rather unexpectedly a Polish PZO. 

There is a notch on the other side too.  Not that finding this is definitive, but it does firm up some of the evidence for legitimacy.  That engraving is just about the only thing, at this point, that gives me pause.

 

The rubber eyecups were made to roll down. Try that for fit.

I would roll them down, but, due to age and previous use, the cups are brittle.  They already have some cracks, and I do not want to destroy them.  When I bought these, a few folks commented that these eyecups are usually gone from use. 

 

 

One change to my post.  The 8x30 Zeiss has the focus knob in the traditional position on the bridge near the eyepieces while The other 3 Zeiss I mention have the focus wheel at the front of the bridge.

 

The B version of the 8x30 was introduced to allow for eyeglass users to focus with glasses on by rolling the rubber eyecups down.  Try that , you may find them comfortable to use.

 

Good luck

Are you saying that my 8x30 has the focus knob in the wrong place, or just that the 8x30s (plural) have the focus knob in a different place than the other Zeiss models? 

 

SMarK anything is possible. It appears to me that you have had more experience with binos than most on this forum,what do you think? Doe's that logo really appear correct to you?

Frank.

I appreciate you alerting me in the first place.  I wondered if the coverplate might be a replacement, or if something else had happened.  There are myriad possibilities, I think. 

 

Thank you, again.
 



#47 shredder1656

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 07:33 AM

As always, everyone is helpful on this forum.  Thanks.



#48 opticchase

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 11:30 AM

The 8x30 and B version are considerably smaller than my other porros of this era.  Placement of the knob in the traditional location required this.  .



#49 PJ Anway

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 04:37 PM

If this will add to the discussion - here is a pic off the cover of a 24 page 1964 Zeiss binocular brochure I have. The brochure shows printed in West Germany on the back cover. This front cover  picture shows "made in Germany" on the hinge. Same for my 8x30's and 10x50's.

 

bino catalog.jpg


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#50 MartinPond

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 05:48 PM

Seems you would have to get at least a dozen details right to

make them look so real.  It would take a lot of work.  

In addition to the very-authentic-looking markings, 

 there is that small focuser thumbwheel,

and the wear on it that seems to be from real use.

 

They also seem to have the right reflected shades for the 

  early Zeiss multi-coating.




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