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Classic Or Vintage...Is There A Difference?

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#1 RalphMeisterTigerMan

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 06:40 PM

Back in the day when I was going through my "Hot Rod" stage, Vintage meant that a Car had to be 25 years or older. Does this definition also apply to Vintage? Does this mean that my 1993 Celestron C5+ is Vintage and/or a Classic telescope? I certainly hope so because that would be pretty cool.

 

Or does Classic mean something else? That there is something special or unique about this particular telescope? Like it is no longer being built? Or that only a limited amount were produced? Or perhaps the original builder had his Wife/Girlfriend/Mistress "kiss" each OTA before it left the factory?

 

Please send in the proper definition of the term "classic". Or, let's make this kind of fun? Send in "your" definition or your "version" of what you think "classic" means. Let's see what happens?

 

Clear skies!

RalphMeisterTigerMan



#2 Terra Nova

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 06:54 PM

According to our Forum Mission Statement:

 

”Telescopes from an era gone by. The place to discuss older telescopes. Antiques, flea market finds, and scopes from grandpa's attic. From the 1780's to the mid-1990's - refractors, reflectors, and early SCT's. Discussing all aspects of restoring, collecting, and observing with older scopes. Discussion of 25-year-old scopes still in production is OK but please don't post newer examples of those, except for actual side-by-side comparisons to demonstrate detail changes.”

 

I don’t think we make a differentiation between Classic and Vintage so much as we do between Collectable and Antique.


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#3 Old Man

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 06:56 PM

  I always thought of the C5+ as a "classic", but now with the age of them, they might be to the point of being "vintage".

Either one is OK with me. I don't think anyone kissed them as they were packed for shipment, but I do think more care was taken on the assembly line and the whole manufacturing process back then.



#4 J A VOLK

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 07:04 PM

To me 'vintage' is on the order of 30 years old.  I interpret 'classic' as the original variant of a model, especially if it was a popular item (often copied by competitors).



#5 clamchip

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 07:04 PM

Most times when I do a search for something old, telescopes, radios, bicycles, motorcycles, etc. I

will place 'Vintage' before the subject and I get all oldie's, which I like because then I don't need to

surf through all the modern junk.  But, the good bad and the ugly appear, it's vintage, doesn't mean

it was good. Its up to me to decide if it's a 'Classic' well liked in it's day and sought after today.

 

Robert


Edited by clamchip, 26 January 2020 - 07:08 PM.

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#6 Kokatha man

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 07:23 PM

From one US source (& I believe it is similar in Oz) for vehicles:

 

<"Usually, the classic car moniker applies to vehicles over 20 years old. Antique cars are over 45 years old, and vintage cars are built between 1919 and 1930. But as with many subjects in the motoring world, not everyone can agree on a single definition. State DMVs, insurance companies, and classic car clubs classify each one differently. And some classifications overlap between classics and antiques...">

 

The same source says that:

 

<"The state of California has a very broad classification on what a "classic" car is, and they do not differentiate between classics, vintage, and antique cars. According to California DMV, if the vehicle was manufactured after 1922, and is at least 25 years old, it is a Historical Vehicle."

 

And for some local context here in South Oz:

 

<"But after many years of hard work, the SMASA team convinced the South Australian State Government that change was needed, and the new rules were passed last Thursday, coming into effect on 1 July.

The new scheme sees a move away from a fixed cut-off manufacture date of 1979 to a rolling 30-year vehicle age. It also allows owners to improve the ride, handling and safety of their vehicles, and make cosmetic enhancements. Motoring clubs will no longer be responsible for carrying out vehicle inspections, reducing their administrative burden. Rules for left-hand-drive vehicles that prohibited making safety improvements, such as updating brake systems, will also be relaxed.

To be eligible for the scheme, an owner just needs to be a financial member of a registered club, and their vehicle must be 30 years or older as of 1 January. The rules allow for 90 days’ use over a calendar year, and logbooks need to be filled out prior to a trip. Get caught out with no logbook entry and you can be pinged for driving unregistered.">

 

These are motor vehicles of course & Terra points out the guidelines for scopes on this forum - but in the spirit of Ralph's suggested "fun" thoughts, I'd be very worried if I had to establish some verification of who kissed what on the factory floor as far as any of my scopes are concerned..! rofl2.gif


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#7 Matty S

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 07:32 PM

I still find it odd that Meade ETX scopes qualify as classics, and are so popular. But then again, my Celestron 80wa was marketed about the same time that those were produced...hmm

#8 JIMZ7

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 08:37 PM

So in this Forum as Classic Telescopes.... is my mid-90s Orion

90mm f/5.6 Short Tube refractor  considered to be a classic scope? 

I would like to know who has one at the earliest date. This one is made in Taiwan.

Jim



#9 Wisconsin Steve

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 08:48 PM

To me "Classic" implies old and good, vintage just means old.

 

Steve


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#10 clamchip

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 08:50 PM

I still find it odd that Meade ETX scopes qualify as classics, and are so popular. But then again, my Celestron 80wa was marketed about the same time that those were produced...hmm

The ETX90 introduced in 1996 created a frenzy. Meade had cloned the Questar for a mere $495

I didn't like the plastic maggot back then just because of all that plastic! but today I cherish mine.

But then and now the plastic is accepted or overlooked because the optics are astounding.

 

Robert


Edited by clamchip, 26 January 2020 - 09:12 PM.


#11 ccwemyss

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 09:32 PM

So in this Forum as Classic Telescopes.... is my mid-90s Orion

90mm f/5.6 Short Tube refractor  considered to be a classic scope? 

I would like to know who has one at the earliest date. This one is made in Taiwan.

Jim

1995 is now 25 years ago. So it depends on what "mid-90's" means as to whether it fits the forum guideline. I still have to wait about 2 years before I can talk about one of my mid-90's scopes here. 

 

Chip W. 



#12 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 01:07 AM

According to our Forum Mission Statement:

 

”Telescopes from an era gone by. The place to discuss older telescopes. Antiques, flea market finds, and scopes from grandpa's attic. From the 1780's to the mid-1990's - refractors, reflectors, and early SCT's. Discussing all aspects of restoring, collecting, and observing with older scopes. Discussion of 25-year-old scopes still in production is OK but please don't post newer examples of those, except for actual side-by-side comparisons to demonstrate detail changes.”

 

I don’t think we make a differentiation between Classic and Vintage so much as we do between Collectable and Antique.

 

waytogo.gif

 

I have been following this forum since 2004. What's qualifies as a Classic has been a frequent topic. Recenty the 25 year old criteria was decided upon.. that was nice.

 

I recommend reading all previous threads before posting to this thread so you're up to speed.. smile.gif

 

Jon


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#13 Littlegreenman

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 03:10 AM

waytogo.gif

 

I have been following this forum since 2004. What's qualifies as a Classic has been a frequent topic. Recenty the 25 year old criteria was decided upon.. that was nice.

 

I recommend reading all previous threads before posting to this thread so you're up to speed.. smile.gif

 

Jon

I would prefer a cut-off date of 2000. Why? Simply because a lot of changes in the astronomy hobby started to occur around the late 1990s. 2000 is a nice round number. Yes, some of the changes started early and some later. 

 

Some of the changes are good, some not so good, some very good. But I think we can look back and see the "modern" astronomy era of the last 20 years is different in many ways than it was before 2000. Some that come to mind:

 

China. You don't have to read the next part.

Chinese companies started to make inroads and today make a high percent of astronomy items. It took them a few years to increase their quality.

Japanese manufactured scopes made in Japan started to fade, many companies are defunct. Today Vixen sells scopes made for them in China, and Vixen and Takahashi make higher end scopes in Japan.

Most SCT telescopes are currently made in China.

 

New companies, such as TMB, William Optics, APM, TEC appeared, and some I forget, focusing on high quality optics.

A plethora of other companies making high end mounts and other items came and some of them also went.

 

Over more years we have other companies and products, such a Ioptron, the Chinese equitorial mount.

You can now buy a variety of Parallelogram mounts and alt/as driven mounts. The choice of apo refractors before 1997-8 was limited to maybe 6 companies in around 10 sizes, and today you can choose ED, Triplet or 4 element scopes in many sizes from 50mm to over 200mm.

 

Newer offering in eyepieces have increased a bit   wink.png too.

 

The internet. You don't have to read the next part.

Retail stores are fewer; on-line buying or ordering is big. 

 

Communications was through Magazines, or face to face in clubs. With the rise of the internet communication about astronomy now includes forums like this where, the consumers and users now contribute a lot to the discussions of astro gear and amateur astronomy.

 

The list goes on, but I think you get the idea.


Edited by Littlegreenman, 27 January 2020 - 03:12 AM.

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#14 Kasmos

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 04:30 AM

Here we go again. The topic of "What's a Classic?" seems to come up all too often.

 

No matter what anybody thinks, as Terra pointed out in post#2, the statement at the top of this forum's home page states the guidelines.

 

FWIW, In the context of discussing older equipment, I think it's a fair definition.


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#15 AstroKerr

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 08:54 AM

For me 'classic' is more for reputable, generally above average scopes - 'vintage' covers any thing with a few years on it. So I may use 'vintage' in a search, but hope to find a 'classic' in the results. I don't dispute the forum def, tho'.

 

if it focuses, I generally like it =)


Edited by AstroKerr, 27 January 2020 - 08:55 AM.


#16 Chuck Hards

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 09:22 AM

The forum definition was deliberately worded so as to be as inclusive as possible, but the age factor simply must over-ride all other definitions.   Ultimately age is what gets a scope in this forum, rather than Refractors, Reflectors, or CATS.  Any other descriptors are secondary and unimportant, for our purposes.


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#17 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 09:38 AM

I guess my Vixen made SPC-102 achro from the late 1980s is now a classic?


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#18 Chuck Hards

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 09:40 AM

Yes.



#19 Terra Nova

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 10:09 AM

For me Classical is synonymous with vintage. It implies both a certain age and a look (associated with its age) that is distinct from the contemporary; and Classical scopes may possess certain features and be made of materials that are different from contemporary products. They may or may not be obsolete in terms of what is commonly used in the present day. 

 

I tend to make a distinction between Collectable and Antique, which are to me the most sensible and useful divisions of what is classic. In my mind I think of the boundary between the two periods as around when I was born (late 1949), but a less personal and more general and practical boundary would be the end of WWII. WWII is a good temporal boundary because it is something of a hiatus. A hiatus to a geologist (my field of work in my professional life) is a distinct temporal boundary between stratigraphic units that marks a time of no deposition or a time where the corresponding stratigraphic unit was erased by erosion before the overlying unit was deposited. It’s a gap in the temporal record (missing time, so to speak) that is seen as a stratigraphic contact known as an unconformity.

 

WWII makes a good hiatus in terms of amateur astronomy because the war effort created a significant shortage in construction materials and skilled workers were re-directed either into active service or defense-related industries. Few amateur-grade astronomical telescopes were manufactured and even ATM scopes were more scarcely produced during that time because of the shortages of materials and workers. Large professional/research telescope projects were largely defrayed as well. The same is true for automobiles, appliances, furniture, and houses. So I think of Collectable Classic telescopes as being mostly post WWII and Antique Telescopes were produced prior to WWII. With regard to materials used, Antique telescopes tend to use more brass and mirrors tend to be silvered rather than aluminized. Following WWII, we start to see more plastic (bakelite and fiberglass), aluminum, stainless steel, chrome plating, etc. 


Edited by Terra Nova, 27 January 2020 - 10:26 AM.

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#20 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 10:28 AM

The way I think about it:

 

I am definitely vintage and a classic PITA.  

 

I am definitely neither collectible nor antique...   smile.gif

 

Jon


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#21 RalphMeisterTigerMan

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 10:47 AM

Okay, good response so far. Thank-you. So what's the verdict, is my Celestron C5+ (it's a complete system that I purchased BTW) a "classic" telescope or a "vintage" telescope? If I am right, and I think that I am, my particular scope and many, many others have good to very good optics. Like I said, I have done a lot of research and read many owner's reports that their C5+ optics were quite exceptional. 

 

This, to me, is amazing because just 5 years earlier just after the bad old days of the Comet Halley horrible SCT optics, here come factory assembly line optics that are the exact opposite of what I experienced with my Meade 10" 2120 LX5 SCT. After that fiasco I vowed never to buy another SCT ever again. How things change! 

 

So I sincerely hope that my C5+ is a "classic", or vintage, as long as vintage means good!

 

So, how would you classify my C5+?

 

Thanks and clear skies!

RalphMeisterTigerMan



#22 Terra Nova

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 12:04 PM

I’ve never had one and always wanted one. To my knowledge tho, the white-tube, one-armed C5+ was as good as it gets when it comes to Celestron SCTs! And I would call it a Classic for sure!


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#23 Senex Bibax

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 12:29 PM

I know there are different definitions ion different jurisdictions and subject areas. Speaking personally, "vintage" should be reserved for whiskey and port, and "classic" is for other items that are desirable, collectible, iconic or have some other aesthetic or intrinsic value. "Antique" does not imply collectible or valuable.

 

Me, I'm just old.



#24 Terra Nova

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 01:04 PM

I know there are different definitions ion different jurisdictions and subject areas. Speaking personally, "vintage" should be reserved for whiskey and port, and "classic" is for other items that are desirable, collectible, iconic or have some other aesthetic or intrinsic value. "Antique" does not imply collectible or valuable.

 

Me, I'm just old.

True, most especially anything aged and derived from the grape! (Vin) ;)



#25 andycknight

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 01:23 PM

RalphMeisterTigerMan, on 27 Jan 2020 - 3:47 PM, said:

[snip...] So, how would you classify my C5+?

It's a vintage classic !

 

Regards

 

Andy.




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