Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Borg F4 Super Reducer - $1300+!?

  • Please log in to reply
7 replies to this topic

#1 Simon B

Simon B

    Apollo

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,067
  • Joined: 16 Jan 2017
  • Loc: Vancouver, BC

Posted 14 February 2020 - 07:17 PM

So I have a Borg 77EDII, which has been working pretty well for me for visual - I'm now in the process of converting it to AP, and my Vixen A80M is now my main visual refractor

 

I've fallen in love with the Borg system - lightweight, and very very versatile. You can basically 'build' your own scope any way you want, with a variety of extension tubes, drawtubes, helical focusers, R&P focusers, filter slides, reducers - the list goes on, and the possibilities are endless. You end up with a scope that is uniquely your creation, and you can add/swap out little bits and pieces as you go along, and as your setup changes. As a fellow CN member once said to me, 'it's like scope lego' : )

 

Anyway, since the Borg 77EDII is discontinued, they no longer sell a reducer for it. There were a number of reducers compatible with the 77EDII back when it was in production, including the 7878, 7870, and 7866... I'm trying to see if I can pick one up used, but no luck so far... I've been keeping an eye out on Yahoo Auctions (Japanese auction site) as that's the most likely place they'd crop up.

 

So I see a 7704 'Borg F4 Super Reducer' appear, and the starting bid is about $180. I'm thinking okay, there's 6 days left, no rush - maybe I can put in a bid for say $300 in a couple of days, and see what happens. But as the days go by, it becomes clear to me that I will NOT be getting this reducer....

 

The bids climbed to $300, then $400, then $500, with 1 day left..... okay wow. The bids were beginning to reach the cost of the reducer when it was new: ¥65,000, or approx $590. Too rich for my blood, and even at this point I'm thinking, boy, someone must really want this reducer, surely it'll just go the end of the auction without any 'sniper' bids; someone's already staked their claim.

 

Saddened by my failure to secure a reducer for my scope, and my naivety of thinking I could possibly nab it for $300, I went to bed. The next day, just out of curiosity, not really expecting the price to have risen too much, if at all, I check the final sale price of the auction.

 

 

 

¥150,000, or approximately 1365 US dollars.

 

I..... wait, WHAT!?!?  That can't be right.  I am stunned, flabbergasted.  $1365 dollars for a focal reducer.  That is a colossal amount of money.

 

I mean....... maybe, it just about makes sense if someone out there has a very expensive setup with one final piece missing, a setup that cannot work without this specific hard-to-find item... maybe two guys with Borg 125s, who had no other alternative for a reducer, were desperately trying to outbid each other. But still, $1365 for a reducer! incredible.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to share my dismal failure to get a reducer for my 77EDII, and share my disbelief at the price someone was willing to pay for the Borg 7704 Super Reducer. Maybe I'll just try a different brand reducer, like William Optics or Televue or something

 

 

EDIT: link to the auction:  https://page.auction...tion/w368619011


Edited by Simon B, 14 February 2020 - 07:21 PM.

  • eros312 likes this

#2 bobzeq25

bobzeq25

    Hubble

  • *****
  • Posts: 18,564
  • Joined: 27 Oct 2014

Posted 14 February 2020 - 07:22 PM

So I have a Borg 77EDII, which has been working pretty well for me for visual - I'm now in the process of converting it to AP, and my Vixen A80M is now my main visual refractor

 

I've fallen in love with the Borg system - lightweight, and very very versatile. You can basically 'build' your own scope any way you want, with a variety of extension tubes, drawtubes, helical focusers, R&P focusers, filter slides, reducers - the list goes on, and the possibilities are endless. You end up with a scope that is uniquely your creation, and you can add/swap out little bits and pieces as you go along, and as your setup changes. As a fellow CN member once said to me, 'it's like scope lego' : )

 

Anyway, since the Borg 77EDII is discontinued, they no longer sell a reducer for it. There were a number of reducers compatible with the 77EDII back when it was in production, including the 7878, 7870, and 7866... I'm trying to see if I can pick one up used, but no luck so far... I've been keeping an eye out on Yahoo Auctions (Japanese auction site) as that's the most likely place they'd crop up.

 

So I see a 7704 'Borg F4 Super Reducer' appear, and the starting bid is about $180. I'm thinking okay, there's 6 days left, no rush - maybe I can put in a bid for say $300 in a couple of days, and see what happens. But as the days go by, it becomes clear to me that I will NOT be getting this reducer....

 

The bids climbed to $300, then $400, then $500, with 1 day left..... okay wow. The bids were beginning to reach the cost of the reducer when it was new: ¥65,000, or approx $590. Too rich for my blood, and even at this point I'm thinking, boy, someone must really want this reducer, surely it'll just go the end of the auction without any 'sniper' bids; someone's already staked their claim.

 

Saddened by my failure to secure a reducer for my scope, and my naivety of thinking I could possibly nab it for $300, I went to bed. The next day, just out of curiosity, not really expecting the price to have risen too much, if at all, I check the final sale price of the auction.

 

 

 

¥150,000, or approximately 1365 US dollars.

 

I..... wait, WHAT!?!?  That can't be right.  I am stunned, flabbergasted.  $1365 dollars for a focal reducer.  That is a colossal amount of money.

 

I mean....... maybe, it just about makes sense if someone out there has a very expensive setup with one final piece missing, a setup that cannot work without this specific hard-to-find item... maybe two guys with Borg 125s, who had no other alternative for a reducer, were desperately trying to outbid each other. But still, $1365 for a reducer! incredible.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to share my dismal failure to get a reducer for my 77EDII, and share my disbelief at the price someone was willing to pay for the Borg 7704 Super Reducer. Maybe I'll just try a different brand reducer, like William Optics or Televue or something

Note that real people bid it up to that price.  It's very unlikely they're idiots.


  • Simon B likes this

#3 Littlegreenman

Littlegreenman

    Aurora

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,778
  • Joined: 08 May 2005
  • Loc: Southern California

Posted 14 February 2020 - 07:44 PM

Note that real people bid it up to that price.  It's very unlikely they're idiots.

Couple of possibilities.

1. Two or a few people really wanted the item, and got into a bidding war.

2. Supply/demand: more than a few people want this item, and they rarely show up for sale.

 

If the #1 is true, then if any others come up for sale in the future, the price should go down. If #2 is true, then the price will not go down.

Focal reducers are made in smaller numbers than the matching OTAs, and are only useful with some OTAs.  And people who paid extra for them when new tend to keep them, so they are an item that does not come up for sale often.

 

I recently found a focal reducer for a Vixen 114mm SS f/5.3 ED scope, which was made around 20 years ago. I found it when someone fairly active on the CN Classic Scopes forum posted the OTA with focal reducer for sale here on CN.

Another CN member very active on the Classic Scopes Forum posted that she had the bought the scope but she had no need for the focal reducer. I sent her a message, and a week later had the reducer in my hands, and at a lower price than when new. It helps that the Classic Scopes community on CN is rather small, and we all (well, many of us) know or know about each other.

 

I don't know if there is a Borg Telescopes forum or site somewhere. I think Yahoo groups had one but Yahoo groups recently closed and the groups migrated elsewhere. If one could track that down that might be a place to score one.

 

Another way to acquire one is to look for someone selling the OTA with one, and then sell off the OTA. And with Borg I can see you also getting some other parts you might want to keep. (This is from someone who once bought a Celestron Ultimate C8 setup, and the deciding factor was to get the included hard to find 30mm Celestron Silvertop eyepiece, so...)


Edited by Littlegreenman, 14 February 2020 - 08:05 PM.

  • Simon B likes this

#4 Simon B

Simon B

    Apollo

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,067
  • Joined: 16 Jan 2017
  • Loc: Vancouver, BC

Posted 14 February 2020 - 08:09 PM

Note that real people bid it up to that price.  It's very unlikely they're idiots.

No I agree - probably makes total sense to the buyer, from their point of view and their needs / budget etc.... I was just shocked at the price. Probably means I'll have to go with an off-brand reducer, and see how it performs with an APS-C chip



#5 H-Alfa

H-Alfa

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 523
  • Joined: 21 Sep 2006
  • Loc: Spain

Posted 15 February 2020 - 09:35 AM

I have it and it's very special. It is made in two pieces that fit on the Borg helical focuser and is not longer available. I used with an APS-C and the field was well corrected, so...I really don't think it's too expensive. Another reducers like Taka are very expensive too...

Enviado desde mi Mi 9 Lite mediante Tapatalk

Edited by H-Alfa, 15 February 2020 - 09:36 AM.

  • psandelle likes this

#6 eastwd

eastwd

    Mariner 2

  • -----
  • Posts: 231
  • Joined: 21 Aug 2011
  • Loc: Nashville

Posted 16 February 2020 - 10:05 AM

It’s a great piece of kit that converts a Borg 125SD with Pentax objective to an f/3.9 5” widefield Petzval astrograph with a wonderfully flat field. With the 7704 reducer, tube rings, a big 16” dovetail plate, and a 50mm Borg guide scope with guide camera attached (that is, everything but the main camera), my 125SD astrophotography rig weighs just 16 pounds. Amazing portability for a five inch scope. If it had enough back focus to allow an OAG instead of requiring a guide scope, it would be just about perfect. That’s why the now-discontinued 7704 is so expensive on the used market.  Before they were discontinued, the price of a new 7704 reducer kit at Hutech was $1095.  I’m pretty sure that’s what I paid. Notably, the Takahashi 645 reducers sell for over $2000 new.


Edited by eastwd, 16 February 2020 - 10:42 AM.


#7 Simon B

Simon B

    Apollo

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,067
  • Joined: 16 Jan 2017
  • Loc: Vancouver, BC

Posted 17 February 2020 - 05:06 AM

It’s a great piece of kit that converts a Borg 125SD with Pentax objective to an f/3.9 5” widefield Petzval astrograph with a wonderfully flat field. With the 7704 reducer, tube rings, a big 16” dovetail plate, and a 50mm Borg guide scope with guide camera attached (that is, everything but the main camera), my 125SD astrophotography rig weighs just 16 pounds. Amazing portability for a five inch scope. If it had enough back focus to allow an OAG instead of requiring a guide scope, it would be just about perfect. That’s why the now-discontinued 7704 is so expensive on the used market.  Before they were discontinued, the price of a new 7704 reducer kit at Hutech was $1095.  I’m pretty sure that’s what I paid. Notably, the Takahashi 645 reducers sell for over $2000 new.

 

That's true, the Takahashi reducers are approaching $2K....  but the Borg 7704 was in fact ¥65,000 when new, in Japan at least, so ¥150,000 is almost 3x the original price! I'm sure it is an excellent reducer, especially with your 125SD : )   apparently the reducer has 2 ED elements, and when coupled with the 77EDII not only flattens the field but also reduces the CA inherent in the 77. Do you find it reduces CA in the 125SD?



#8 eastwd

eastwd

    Mariner 2

  • -----
  • Posts: 231
  • Joined: 21 Aug 2011
  • Loc: Nashville

Posted 17 February 2020 - 10:32 AM

That's true, the Takahashi reducers are approaching $2K....  but the Borg 7704 was in fact ¥65,000 when new, in Japan at least, so ¥150,000 is almost 3x the original price! I'm sure it is an excellent reducer, especially with your 125SD : )   apparently the reducer has 2 ED elements, and when coupled with the 77EDII not only flattens the field but also reduces the CA inherent in the 77. Do you find it reduces CA in the 125SD?

Yes, in my view, CA isn't a problem with the 7704 and the 125SD at f/3.9. The base telescope with no accessories is just a doublet at a native focal ratio of f/6, and CA is more obvious. I was able to find a couple of old Astromart classified ads, and a used 7704 sold for $995 US in 2009, which is what the seller said he had paid for it new. Another of these sold on Astromart for $1000 US in 2017. I’m confident I paid $1095 US to Hutech for a new 7704 sometime during the last 5 or 6 years.  I can’t speak to original pricing in Japan, but you’re correct that historical currency rates alone wouldn’t explain the delta you’re describing.  With the 7704 reducer, the 125SD at f/3.9 has a 45mm image circle and an effective mechanical back focus of 44mm, based on my own measurements. For comparison, according to a chart of telephone specs and accessory options put out by Takahashi, the FSQ-106EDX with the 645 reducer (currently priced at $2310 in the U.S and  often out of stock) produces a 60mm image circle and has 73.5mm of back focus in that configuration.


Edited by eastwd, 17 February 2020 - 03:08 PM.

  • H-Alfa and Simon B like this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics