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What OS to install on your new AMD Ryzen Threadripper

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#1 D_talley

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 08:28 PM

Here is a comparison between Windows 10 and Linux and how they scale up from 16 to 128 threads.  Interesting review and it clearly shows that linux spanks Windows for using all of your motherboard/cpus.  

 

This is a great reason to use Linux for your astronomy process work. Pixinsight has been shown to really take Linux and run.

 

 

https://www.phoronix...ows-linux&num=1

 

 

 

 


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#2 Ishtim

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 08:43 PM

Linux for sure, but If I can afford a Threadripper to run PI, I'd dual or even tri boot OSes to cover all bases.



#3 MikiSJ

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 09:12 PM

I read the comparison at the provided link and it is obvious to me, that if you are comfortable using LINUX (I am not) then that is the OS to use.

 

But Ishtim's recommendation of multiple OSes bears heeding to as some stuff won't work on LINUX.


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#4 ccs_hello

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 10:48 PM

Run a VMware workstation on host OS (Linux) and any guest OS (such as Windows.)



#5 bobzeq25

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 12:16 AM

A different take.  Trying to get fancy here with dual booting, virtual machines, etc. is risking trouble.  It can get really bad, read the whole thread referenced at the end of this.

 

I built a PI processing machine with a Threadripper.  The system was clean and new.  I loaded Ubuntu 18.04LTS, as mainstream as it gets.  Then PI.  And I was immediately processing.  My PI benchmark was near the top of the charts.  Simple has considerable virtue.  _Especially_ if this is your first Linux experience.

 

I have another machine I use for Windows 10, and general work.  The only other thing I do on the PI machine is PI, Internet browsing/downloading PI updates and other things relevant to PI processing.

 

You _really_ don't want to go here.  This guy has spent many frustrating hours on this, and still isn't processing.  As I said there, he might more profitably have just used Windows.  There's no real advantage to using one Linux distro over another, once you're running PI, it _really_ doesn't matter.

 

https://www.cloudyni...nix-to-install/


Edited by bobzeq25, 15 February 2020 - 12:16 AM.

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#6 Dan Finnerty

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 12:37 AM

I'm that guy. I was about to log in to my thread to report success at last, but I saw this thread first and just could not not read it. I had some serious lessons to learn and I'm still walking on egg shells, but I got PI installed and ran my first benchmark with it. Using the Mint 19.3 distribution, and not letting myself do any software updates. That seems to be the kiss of death for this motherboard/chipset. I'll report status and benchmarks on the original thread.

 

Bob is right that as far as PI is concerned, I'm better off just running PI in windows. But there are other "benefits" to fighting this install. I've learned a lot installing linux, starting to learn to operate linux and fighting through the intricacies of the problems I'm having is very very frustrating educational.

 

So it can be done. The biggest problem for me is the Aorus Xtreme motherboard being so  new, there are still s/w or driver incompatibilities. Your mileage may vary depending on what MB you got for your system.

 

(and if you hear an earth-shattering scream tonight, its just me suffering another failed reboot)


Edited by Dan Finnerty, 15 February 2020 - 12:45 AM.

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#7 dpastern

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 07:15 AM

Here is a comparison between Windows 10 and Linux and how they scale up from 16 to 128 threads.  Interesting review and it clearly shows that linux spanks Windows for using all of your motherboard/cpus.  

 

This is a great reason to use Linux for your astronomy process work. Pixinsight has been shown to really take Linux and run.

 

 

https://www.phoronix...ows-linux&num=1

Linux has been spanking Windows for many, many years in terms of hardware performance.  I remember running counterstrike on Linux and getting more FPS (using WINE lol) than running it natively in Winblows...



#8 dpastern

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 07:20 AM

A different take.  Trying to get fancy here with dual booting, virtual machines, etc. is risking trouble.  It can get really bad, read the whole thread referenced at the end of this.

Only cos Winblows doesn't play nice with other operating systems and refuses to acknowledge them...

 

pro tip, install Windows first, then install Linux and let it have the bootloader so you can choose which O/S to boot.  If you do Linux first and Windows 2nd, you're in for a tonne of trouble.  

 

Speaking from personal experience here and currently going through a nightmare trying to upgrade win 7 to win 10 on my dual booting system...Windows is just an absolute p.o.s in every way possible.  Has been since Windows 1.0


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#9 Steve Cox

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 07:56 AM

Only cos Winblows doesn't play nice with other operating systems and refuses to acknowledge them...

 

pro tip, install Windows first, then install Linux and let it have the bootloader so you can choose which O/S to boot.  If you do Linux first and Windows 2nd, you're in for a tonne of trouble.  

 

Speaking from personal experience here and currently going through a nightmare trying to upgrade win 7 to win 10 on my dual booting system...Windows is just an absolute p.o.s in every way possible.  Has been since Windows 1.0

Yes, either install Windows first, or run a bootable utility like Partition Magic to reset the MBR on the desired drive, and make sure only one physical drive has the MBR set. I was reading your other post on your Win10 upgrade struggle and agree on wondering why MS doesn't include a boot record utility for setup or recovery purposes. 


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#10 dpastern

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 08:27 AM

Yes, either install Windows first, or run a bootable utility like Partition Magic to reset the MBR on the desired drive, and make sure only one physical drive has the MBR set. I was reading your other post on your Win10 upgrade struggle and agree on wondering why MS doesn't include a boot record utility for setup or recovery purposes. 

I just updated that post Steve.  Windows is just CRAP.  When I built my first PC way back in '97, I wanted to go with OS2/Warp 4, but a mate talked me out of it and into using Windows 95....oh the regret!  2 years later I did my first install of Linux (Redhat).  I dabbled with Linux until 2002 until I went pretty much full time to Redhat and very shortly after, Debian.  I've used OS X since late 2009 as my daily desktop (MacBook Pro).  But hey, I've used an awful lot of operating systems in my time (AmigaOS, BEOS, Solaris, freeBSD, openBSD, etc).  I just really hate Windows, it's a terrible system in every aspect.  



#11 D_talley

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 09:59 AM

As for dual booting, I never attempt to put both operating systems on a single drive. I load Windows on one and Linux on another and decide when the system is booting on which to run. No hassles with MBR. Why deal with the headache. 

 

I would have loved to see BEOS take off but the developers were not serious about their software and it went the way of the others. I had forgotten about OS2/Warp.  I will need to find a distro of it.



#12 dpastern

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 10:21 AM

As for dual booting, I never attempt to put both operating systems on a single drive. I load Windows on one and Linux on another and decide when the system is booting on which to run. No hassles with MBR. Why deal with the headache. 

 

I would have loved to see BEOS take off but the developers were not serious about their software and it went the way of the others. I had forgotten about OS2/Warp.  I will need to find a distro of it.

I've had 4 systems on the same drive before (NT4, XP, 2 lots of Linux - Slackware and Redhat).  No issues.  Just install Windows first...then Linux.  That way Windows doesn't screw up the bootloaders (this was back in the day of LILO too, which is far inferior to GRUB).  And using fips as the partitioning manager...wow that was a long time ago lol!


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#13 bobzeq25

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 12:36 PM

Only cos Winblows doesn't play nice with other operating systems and refuses to acknowledge them...

 

pro tip, install Windows first, then install Linux and let it have the bootloader so you can choose which O/S to boot.  If you do Linux first and Windows 2nd, you're in for a tonne of trouble.  

 

Speaking from personal experience here and currently going through a nightmare trying to upgrade win 7 to win 10 on my dual booting system...Windows is just an absolute p.o.s in every way possible.  Has been since Windows 1.0

Pro tip.  Just install Linux on a clean machine, and be done with it.  As they say.   It.        Just.       Works.        <grin>     I built the computer, loaded Linux and PI, and was immediately up and running.   Running very fast, with no issues.  I had zero previous Linux experience.

 

Yes, you can make dual booting work.  It's far easier to have two computers.

 

My Windows 10 machine has also been troublefree.  It doesn't require the horsepower to do image processing, with hundreds of subs.  No conflicts with other OSes, because there aren't any.

 

Consider it "nightmare-proofing".  What's that worth to you?


Edited by bobzeq25, 22 February 2020 - 12:42 PM.


#14 MikiSJ

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 02:06 PM

I hate religious wars.

 

I started with MS in 1983 with an IBM XT PC with an Intel 8088 CPU, 640 Kb of RAM and a 10 Mb hard drive. I have been with MS ever since. Windows 10 is not a piece of CRAP. It works for me and runs every program that I want/need on the five+ systems I have at my home.

 

I wish IBM had bought the 32 bit API from MS as OS/2 was a much better OS than the first Windows. I used to run AutoCAD on a MS DOS machine. OS/2 DOS was noticeably faster. Alas, IBM gave up too soon on the PC and OS/2.


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#15 dpastern

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 06:36 PM

I hate religious wars.

 

I started with MS in 1983 with an IBM XT PC with an Intel 8088 CPU, 640 Kb of RAM and a 10 Mb hard drive. I have been with MS ever since. Windows 10 is not a piece of CRAP. It works for me and runs every program that I want/need on the five+ systems I have at my home.

 

I wish IBM had bought the 32 bit API from MS as OS/2 was a much better OS than the first Windows. I used to run AutoCAD on a MS DOS machine. OS/2 DOS was noticeably faster. Alas, IBM gave up too soon on the PC and OS/2.

how can you make that claim when you haven't used anything else?  I find that rather amusing.  

 

Please explain to me why Windows needs to muck around with a drive that has another O/S on it, that has nothing to do with the install on the current drive in question?  It doesn't need to boot it.  It doesn't need to install files to it.  So, why does it have a massive dummy spit and screw up then?  Why does Linux not even remotely care and it just gets on with the job, efficiently, and does it, without stuff ups?  Please answer that to me...



#16 dpastern

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 06:39 PM

Pro tip.  Just install Linux on a clean machine, and be done with it.  As they say.   It.        Just.       Works.        <grin>     I built the computer, loaded Linux and PI, and was immediately up and running.   Running very fast, with no issues.  I had zero previous Linux experience.

 

Yes, you can make dual booting work.  It's far easier to have two computers.

 

My Windows 10 machine has also been troublefree.  It doesn't require the horsepower to do image processing, with hundreds of subs.  No conflicts with other OSes, because there aren't any.

 

Consider it "nightmare-proofing".  What's that worth to you?

In these days of VMs, dual booting O/S is mostly a dead art.  But hey, how do you get that VM to run when its parent host O/S is dead *wink wink*.  

 

The issue isn't dual booting, the issue is that Windows wants to have full control over every single drive in your system, even drives that have nothing to do with the installation of Windows.  And that is a massive issue.  How come other operating systems coexist nicely with other operating systems, but Windows can't?  

 

I mean, I was doing an upgrade.  The Windows devs should be smart enough to program the upgrade process to recognise the drive its upgrading, and simply upgrade that.  There's no need to look at anything else.  



#17 Steve Cox

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 06:57 PM

how can you make that claim when you haven't used anything else?  I find that rather amusing.  

 

Please explain to me why Windows needs to muck around with a drive that has another O/S on it, that has nothing to do with the install on the current drive in question?  It doesn't need to boot it.  It doesn't need to install files to it.  So, why does it have a massive dummy spit and screw up then?  Why does Linux not even remotely care and it just gets on with the job, efficiently, and does it, without stuff ups?  Please answer that to me...

While I agree with many of your views and feel for your struggles, I've actually used all currently available OS's at some point and currently am quite happy living on Win 10.  In fact, Win 10 is what got me off MacOS and back to Windows.  Mac under Tim Cook IMO has been getting progressively worse with each new revision.  Linux is fine, but there are some things I cannot find software for in Linux that I have in Windows, mostly in media creation/copying/duplication.  I've yet to find any DVD or Blu-Ray rippers or duplicators which support all the new current disk Codecs encryption formats, esp Disney disks.  To date, only WinX DVD and MacX DVD software can support what I'm doing.  If it weren't for that, then I might likely be on Mint. 

 

Also, at least for me, I've yet to find office software that can meet my needs regarding simplicity of document formatting and compatibility with work documents like MSOffice Home & Student (no, I refuse to pay subscriptions for any software).  LibreOffice, though workable, always comes up short for me and leaves me feeling wanting and frustrated.

 

Last from me on this thread tonight, don't discount Win 10 security, it ranks up with the others and among the best.  All OS's have their vulnerabilities, and my strong belief these days is the only reason Linux and Mac (BSD) are perceived as "less vulnerable" is simply due to the smaller user base.  Win 10 is worlds better on security than older Win versions and it's unfair to use WinXP as a reference for Win 10 security.


Edited by Steve Cox, 22 February 2020 - 07:00 PM.

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#18 dpastern

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 07:15 PM

While I agree with many of your views and feel for your struggles, I've actually used all currently available OS's at some point and currently am quite happy living on Win 10.  In fact, Win 10 is what got me off MacOS and back to Windows.  Mac under Tim Cook IMO has been getting progressively worse with each new revision.  Linux is fine, but there are some things I cannot find software for in Linux that I have in Windows, mostly in media creation/copying/duplication.  I've yet to find any DVD or Blu-Ray rippers or duplicators which support all the new current disk Codecs encryption formats, esp Disney disks.  To date, only WinX DVD and MacX DVD software can support what I'm doing.  If it weren't for that, then I might likely be on Mint. 

 

Also, at least for me, I've yet to find office software that can meet my needs regarding simplicity of document formatting and compatibility with work documents like MSOffice Home & Student (no, I refuse to pay subscriptions for any software).  LibreOffice, though workable, always comes up short for me and leaves me feeling wanting and frustrated.

 

Last from me on this thread tonight, don't discount Win 10 security, it ranks up with the others and among the best.  All OS's have their vulnerabilities, and my strong belief these days is the only reason Linux and Mac (BSD) are perceived as "less vulnerable" is simply due to the smaller user base.  Win 10 is worlds better on security than older Win versions and it's unfair to use WinXP as a reference for Win 10 security.

I hate going back to Windows.  Sleep?  It 's crap compared to OS X (lift lid up on Macbook Pro, and instantly, I have where I left off showing).  Windows 10?  Login screen and it is laggy as hell...why Windows why?  

 

I agree that OS X (MacOS if you must call it that) is getting worse under Tim Cook.  Apple products across the board have been in strong decline from a quality point of view since Steve Jobs passed imho.  My iPhone 6 is garbage (I hate the phone that much I want to seriously throw it).  

 

You can't blame Linux for having issues with proprietary standards.  Proprietary standards are BAD, always have been.  Most commercial software vendors are afraid of Linux and this shows in their lack of support for it.  Great for the company in question, terrible for the consumer.  

 

The smaller userbase argument has been around for a long time, and it's simply just not true.  Microsoft Windows was never, from day 1, designed with security in mind.  NEVER.  Whilst I would agree that Win 10 security is better than its predecessors, it's still weak compared to any Linux kernel based system (let alone something like openBSD).  Security by obscurity has never been a good way to develop software.  Security flaw on Linux?  There's usually a same day fix...try that on Windows or any other commercial software where the flaw is typically hidden by the vendor to save face, and they fumble to apply a fix in anything resembling timeliness.  

 

Already after 2-3 weeks of usage of Windows 10 on my 2nd hand Lenovo t430 that I purchased off Ebay, it has shown the typical Microsoft Windows "slowdown".  I said this to a mate a few days ago and he laughed and agreed (he also works in IT).  

 

I do admit that I have an open hatred of Microsoft (how is office not a monopoly and in breach of anti-trust laws?).  Remember ODF?  Yeah, Microsoft politically interfered with that One, yet the US DOJ did nothing...I guess when you have billions, you can afford to bribe US senators to do your will...



#19 Ishtim

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 08:28 PM

Here is a comparison between Windows 10 and Linux and how they scale up from 16 to 128 threads.  Interesting review and it clearly shows that linux spanks Windows for using all of your motherboard/cpus. 

Interesting article.  Thanks for sharing!  

Looks like this thread has become (for whatever reason) an OS fanboy discussion.

While I agree that Linux usually tops for performance numbers in certain areas and I use it at work for simulation & number crunching with some pretty cool hardware (stuff that I could never afford), but what about the real world? 

Those of us that process images as part of a hobby? 

What kind of time is it gonna save me if load Linux vs Windows? 10, 30, 60 mins of processing time for a given image set?

If I could all afford a $4000 USD processor along with the latest hardware and loaded PixInsight to process my images,  is Linux going shave minutes, days, months or maybe a year off my processing time vs Windows?

Surely someone has run a "real world" side by side comparison of OSes using PixInsight doing "soup to nuts" processing...

If Linux or some other OS is the clear winner in terms of time savings (saves me days, etc) for image processing, can it also be utilized efficiently for data acquisition and capture?


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#20 dpastern

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 08:58 PM

Interesting article.  Thanks for sharing!  

Looks like this thread has become (for whatever reason) an OS fanboy discussion.

While I agree that Linux usually tops for performance numbers in certain areas and I use it at work for simulation & number crunching with some pretty cool hardware (stuff that I could never afford), but what about the real world? 

Those of us that process images as part of a hobby? 

What kind of time is it gonna save me if load Linux vs Windows? 10, 30, 60 mins of processing time for a given image set?

If I could all afford a $4000 USD processor along with the latest hardware and loaded PixInsight to process my images,  is Linux going shave minutes, days, months or maybe a year off my processing time vs Windows?

Surely someone has run a "real world" side by side comparison of OSes using PixInsight doing "soup to nuts" processing...

If Linux or some other OS is the clear winner in terms of time savings (saves me days, etc) for image processing, can it also be utilized efficiently for data acquisition and capture?

it's not an OS fanboy discussion. Juan @ PI recommends Linux over Windows or Mac.  PI is developed natively on Linux btw (if you didn't know).  

 

Linux will typically install easily and quickly as a rule.  Long gone are the days of difficult installs (as a rule).  You'll typically just need the initial install disc/usb and the a network connection (ethernet is much preferred to wireless, since a wireless setup will typically require proprietary drivers).  

 

I don't have the time or patience to test Linux vs Windows IO performance.  I could probably do a base comparison without any tempfs setup involved (just base SSD/software performance) if you wanted to compare the 2 systems (using same RAM/CPU etc).  



#21 D_talley

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 10:02 PM

There have been numerous side by side test of Linux vs Windows based PI on CN.  Linux clearly wins and over time the savings would be substantial.  


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#22 bobzeq25

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 10:17 AM

Interesting article.  Thanks for sharing!  

Looks like this thread has become (for whatever reason) an OS fanboy discussion.

While I agree that Linux usually tops for performance numbers in certain areas and I use it at work for simulation & number crunching with some pretty cool hardware (stuff that I could never afford), but what about the real world? 

Those of us that process images as part of a hobby? 

What kind of time is it gonna save me if load Linux vs Windows? 10, 30, 60 mins of processing time for a given image set?

If I could all afford a $4000 USD processor along with the latest hardware and loaded PixInsight to process my images,  is Linux going shave minutes, days, months or maybe a year off my processing time vs Windows?

Surely someone has run a "real world" side by side comparison of OSes using PixInsight doing "soup to nuts" processing...

If Linux or some other OS is the clear winner in terms of time savings (saves me days, etc) for image processing, can it also be utilized efficiently for data acquisition and capture?

Real world.

 

There is no question that Linux saves significant time if you're using PI.  Using a CPU with many cores, and either a RAMDisk or fast SSD(s) for the swap files is even more important than Linux for PI.

 

There is no question that data acquisition does not require much consideration of computing power, it's realtime work, painfully slow for a computer.  I'd say every serious imager uses different computers for acquisition and for processing.


Edited by bobzeq25, 23 February 2020 - 10:18 AM.

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#23 Ishtim

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 02:53 PM

it's not an OS fanboy discussion. 

By definition, your choice to vehemently show dislike towards Windows makes that a false statement.

 

I am simply looking for a quantified, objective comparison of PI performance using identical hardware with the two OSes. 

 

There have been numerous side by side test of Linux vs Windows based PI on CN.  Linux clearly wins and over time the savings would be substantial.  

Seems to be the consensus, but I haven't been able to find any direct comparisons to isolate the operating systems.

Real world.

 

There is no question that Linux saves significant time if you're using PI.  

I understand, but surely there must be actual evidence that singles out the OS performance.  

 

I did find information here on CN as to why Linux might be faster.

 

 

juan develops PI under linux. the thing that enables PI to run on windows and OSX is the Qt gui toolkit which is cross-platform.

 

i'm not sure that PI is particularly optimized for linux, but it is of course heavily multithreaded and can really punish an I/O system when doing preprocessing tasks. i think in some instances the windows performance is than both OSX and linux, IIRC on I/O tasks. the differences between PI performance on different OSs probably comes down to thread models and scheduler policy.

  I'll keep digging, but if anyone finds such a comparison, please share.



#24 bobzeq25

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 08:32 PM

By definition, your choice to vehemently show dislike towards Windows makes that a false statement.

 

I am simply looking for a quantified, objective comparison of PI performance using identical hardware with the two OSes. 

 

Seems to be the consensus, but I haven't been able to find any direct comparisons to isolate the operating systems.

I understand, but surely there must be actual evidence that singles out the OS performance.  

 

I did find information here on CN as to why Linux might be faster.

  I'll keep digging, but if anyone finds such a comparison, please share.

Here a _ton_ of solid, quantitative data.  Look through it, it may take time (It's PI, after all <grin> ), you'll find all the proof you could possibly want.

 

https://pixinsight.com/benchmark/

 

Click on the top one, every Linux machine solidly beats every Windows machine.

 

You can keep looking as much as you like.  It won't be all as clear as that, but it will be clear.


Edited by bobzeq25, 23 February 2020 - 08:33 PM.

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#25 Ishtim

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 10:43 PM

Thanks! 

I looked at the benchmark scores from the top scoring setup, a 32 core (easily a $4000+ rig) in which they appear to do an apples to apples comparison.  The column labeled "total time" for the Linux rig is about twice as fast as the windows rig (10.6s to 20.4s). waytogo.gif

When I looked at next lower tier of Threadripper setups with comparable amount of RAM the "overall" timings are MUCH closer (Linux vs Windows). confused1.gif

16 core (17s to 19s)

12 core (19s to 22s)

There are obviously more benchmark scores for the "mainstream" level Ryzen CPUs and the scores are close (not large delta like the 32 core machine scores), BUT the details (RAM disk usage/swap space) are not always well documented with the scores, making it difficult (for me anyway) to draw any conclusions. 

 

I'm still looking...  It would be nice to see more direct hardware comparisons before making a wholesale pitch for one OS over another.   Just my  penny.gif penny.gif




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