Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

What OS to install on your new AMD Ryzen Threadripper

  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#26 bobzeq25

bobzeq25

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 21,525
  • Joined: 27 Oct 2014

Posted 23 February 2020 - 11:01 PM

Thanks! 

I looked at the benchmark scores from the top scoring setup, a 32 core (easily a $4000+ rig) in which they appear to do an apples to apples comparison.  The column labeled "total time" for the Linux rig is about twice as fast as the windows rig (10.6s to 20.4s). waytogo.gif

When I looked at next lower tier of Threadripper setups with comparable amount of RAM the "overall" timings are MUCH closer (Linux vs Windows). confused1.gif

16 core (17s to 19s)

12 core (19s to 22s)

There are obviously more benchmark scores for the "mainstream" level Ryzen CPUs and the scores are close (not large delta like the 32 core machine scores), BUT the details (RAM disk usage/swap space) are not always well documented with the scores, making it difficult (for me anyway) to draw any conclusions. 

 

I'm still looking...  It would be nice to see more direct hardware comparisons before making a wholesale pitch for one OS over another.   Just my  penny.gif penny.gif

For goodness sake.  "More"?  There are _many_ examples there.  I doubt if you've looked at half of them, you couldn't possibly have in the 2 hours since I sent you the site. 

 

Yes, it would be much work to examine and analyze the whole database.  But, a large majority of us are convinced.  I'm reluctant to recommend things I'm not sure about.  I'm sure Linux is worth the effort for PI, and equally sure Windows is not horrible. 

 

But, building a PI specific machine is good.  And there's absolutely no reason to run Windows on it, either as a main or a secondary OS.  Use a separate computer for that.


Edited by bobzeq25, 23 February 2020 - 11:03 PM.

  • dpastern likes this

#27 dpastern

dpastern

    Surveyor 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 1,614
  • Joined: 01 Jan 2009
  • Loc: Brisbane, Australia

Posted 24 February 2020 - 04:12 AM

By definition, your choice to vehemently show dislike towards Windows makes that a false statement.

If you say so.  I just came back to Windows (Windows 10) after basically a 8-9 year hiatus (and Windows then was only used for Six or so weeks anyway!) and I'm over it.  Having used pretty much every major operating system since the late 90s (BEOS, Solaris, AmigaOS, freeBSD, openBSD, many distros of GNU/Linux, MS Windows from 3.1 and above, including some server O/S like Windows Server 2000), Mac from 8.x up to Mojave, and that's in a home environment.  I've been a sysadmin for a small ISP for 8 years and it was my job to manage the Windows and Linux web and Email servers, DNS servers, SQL servers (MS SQL and mysql v4 and v5) and I can honestly tell you that from an administration point of view, Linux murdered Windows.  

 

I get your happy with Windows.  I am not.  That your happy with Windows doesn't invalidate my negative experiences with it.  

 

For some things, Windows will perform better, take this interesting video as a brief example:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=HRitBdb0rIw

 

note that Windows talks direct to dx9, whereas linux talks to dx9 (under wine) then to open gl 3, then the hardware.  So, not really an entirely fair comparison.  

 

PixInsight is a bit different of course, in that it runs natively on Linux & Windows.  As I said, Juan has personally told me that PI will run better on Linux as it is both developed on it (Kubuntu) and has been optimised for Linux. 

 

Thanks! 

I looked at the benchmark scores from the top scoring setup, a 32 core (easily a $4000+ rig) in which they appear to do an apples to apples comparison.  The column labeled "total time" for the Linux rig is about twice as fast as the windows rig (10.6s to 20.4s). waytogo.gif

When I looked at next lower tier of Threadripper setups with comparable amount of RAM the "overall" timings are MUCH closer (Linux vs Windows). confused1.gif

16 core (17s to 19s)

12 core (19s to 22s)

There are obviously more benchmark scores for the "mainstream" level Ryzen CPUs and the scores are close (not large delta like the 32 core machine scores), BUT the details (RAM disk usage/swap space) are not always well documented with the scores, making it difficult (for me anyway) to draw any conclusions. 

 

I'm still looking...  It would be nice to see more direct hardware comparisons before making a wholesale pitch for one OS over another.   Just my  penny.gif penny.gif

well...16 core...that's a 2s differential, 2/17 is roughly 1/8, or 12.5% - not to be sneezed at.  12 core has an even larger percentage advantage (3/19, roughly 1/6 or 16%)...that's a very nice performance buff imho, for simply changing your running O/S.  



#28 dpastern

dpastern

    Surveyor 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 1,614
  • Joined: 01 Jan 2009
  • Loc: Brisbane, Australia

Posted 24 February 2020 - 04:24 AM

 

If I could all afford a $4000 USD processor along with the latest hardware and loaded PixInsight to process my images, 

 

well, I'm strongly considering going for a Ryzen 7 2700x + 64GB RAM and a Samsung NVME 970 EVO 240GB (split into 4 for tempfs/parallel processing).  

 

Ryzen 7 2700x - https://www.amazon.c...pcmagcontent-20

 

USD $170 (AUD $250)

 

I found a suitable motherboard locally for AUD $145...RAM is $105 (AUD) for 16GB...Samsung NVME SSD is AUD $130...

 

starting with 16GB RAM, the total cost is $630 AUD...for me, it'll be pricier, as I'll be buying a new GPU, case, optical disc drive and PSU...you may be able to use an existing computer to grab those parts and save money.  

 

It doesn't have to cost the Earth for a fast PI computer.  And the 2700x is like 8th on the PI benchmarks...don't underestimate the swap size - comparing the 3 benchmarked 2700x chips you can see clear correlations between swap and performance.  

 

The above suggested setup, with the EVO NVMED split into 4 lots of 60GB swap should scream!!!!!  Especially with 64GB RAM.  


Edited by dpastern, 24 February 2020 - 04:25 AM.


#29 bobzeq25

bobzeq25

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 21,525
  • Joined: 27 Oct 2014

Posted 24 February 2020 - 10:08 AM

well, I'm strongly considering going for a Ryzen 7 2700x + 64GB RAM and a Samsung NVME 970 EVO 240GB (split into 4 for tempfs/parallel processing).  

 

Ryzen 7 2700x - https://www.amazon.c...pcmagcontent-20

 

USD $170 (AUD $250)

 

I found a suitable motherboard locally for AUD $145...RAM is $105 (AUD) for 16GB...Samsung NVME SSD is AUD $130...

 

starting with 16GB RAM, the total cost is $630 AUD...for me, it'll be pricier, as I'll be buying a new GPU, case, optical disc drive and PSU...you may be able to use an existing computer to grab those parts and save money.  

 

It doesn't have to cost the Earth for a fast PI computer.  And the 2700x is like 8th on the PI benchmarks...don't underestimate the swap size - comparing the 3 benchmarked 2700x chips you can see clear correlations between swap and performance.  

 

The above suggested setup, with the EVO NVMED split into 4 lots of 60GB swap should scream!!!!!  Especially with 64GB RAM.  

Looks like a good setup.  Consider the 1920X, 12 cores, 24 threads.  PI is effectively multithreaded in most operations.  About $US250.  It uses an X399 motherboard which has quad channel memory instead of dual.

 

The price increase could be worth it, if it's still within your budget.


  • dpastern likes this

#30 dpastern

dpastern

    Surveyor 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 1,614
  • Joined: 01 Jan 2009
  • Loc: Brisbane, Australia

Posted 24 February 2020 - 05:29 PM

Looks like a good setup.  Consider the 1920X, 12 cores, 24 threads.  PI is effectively multithreaded in most operations.  About $US250.  It uses an X399 motherboard which has quad channel memory instead of dual.

 

The price increase could be worth it, if it's still within your budget.

Thank you for the recommendation!  I haven't really kept on top of CPU developments for a long while, so wasn't even aware of that chip.  Having a look at some rough benchmarking:

 

https://cpu.userbenc...700X/3934vs3958

 

it looks a better option for a workstation setup, but far worse for gaming.  This PC would be PI only, so gaming isn't an issue.  Since I've been out of the hardware loop for so long, I have a few questions:

 

1.  Can I forgo an external GPU and just use the on board graphics?  I presume that this is a yes.

 

2.  cooling.  I don't want to really go with water cooling (don't understand it, afraid of it, and concerned with leaks).  Can the threadripper 1920x use a normal air heatsink?  As far as I know, threadripper CPUs do not ship with a heatsink cooler, so you have to buy a 3rd party one...which one would be best recommended?

 

3.  I might as well save a bit more for the AMD Ryzen 7 3700x, which comes with a stock cooler, and has 16 cores...

 

What are your thoughts?



#31 bobzeq25

bobzeq25

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 21,525
  • Joined: 27 Oct 2014

Posted 24 February 2020 - 05:50 PM

Thank you for the recommendation!  I haven't really kept on top of CPU developments for a long while, so wasn't even aware of that chip.  Having a look at some rough benchmarking:

 

https://cpu.userbenc...700X/3934vs3958

 

it looks a better option for a workstation setup, but far worse for gaming.  This PC would be PI only, so gaming isn't an issue.  Since I've been out of the hardware loop for so long, I have a few questions:

 

1.  Can I forgo an external GPU and just use the on board graphics?  I presume that this is a yes.

 

2.  cooling.  I don't want to really go with water cooling (don't understand it, afraid of it, and concerned with leaks).  Can the threadripper 1920x use a normal air heatsink?  As far as I know, threadripper CPUs do not ship with a heatsink cooler, so you have to buy a 3rd party one...which one would be best recommended?

 

3.  I might as well save a bit more for the AMD Ryzen 7 3700x, which comes with a stock cooler, and has 16 cores...

 

What are your thoughts?

1.  I have a 1950X on a X399 Taichi.  16 cores, 32 threads.  It's a hoot watching 32 subs preprocess at once.  <smile>  The 1920X is a better bargain.

There was no onboard graphics, I bought a $90 card.  PI really doesn't care, it doesn't do any processing on the graphics card.

 

https://www.amazon.c...ctronics&sr=1-4

 

2.  A good air cooler is fine.  I like quiet.  I use a Noctua, similar to this.  You need to check compatibility.  Stacking hundreds of subs, it's only warm.

 

https://www.newegg.c...&quicklink=true

 

3.  The 3700X is 8 cores, 16 threads.

 

See this post for more details.

 

https://www.cloudyni...s/#entry9110301


Edited by bobzeq25, 24 February 2020 - 05:59 PM.

  • dpastern likes this

#32 dpastern

dpastern

    Surveyor 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 1,614
  • Joined: 01 Jan 2009
  • Loc: Brisbane, Australia

Posted 25 February 2020 - 02:03 AM

1.  I have a 1950X on a X399 Taichi.  16 cores, 32 threads.  It's a hoot watching 32 subs preprocess at once.  <smile>  The 1920X is a better bargain.

There was no onboard graphics, I bought a $90 card.  PI really doesn't care, it doesn't do any processing on the graphics card.

 

https://www.amazon.c...ctronics&sr=1-4

 

2.  A good air cooler is fine.  I like quiet.  I use a Noctua, similar to this.  You need to check compatibility.  Stacking hundreds of subs, it's only warm.

 

https://www.newegg.c...&quicklink=true

 

3.  The 3700X is 8 cores, 16 threads.

 

See this post for more details.

 

https://www.cloudyni...s/#entry9110301

Many thanks for taking the time to reply and help Bob, greatly appreciated.

 

I think the 1920x it is then, but it is an older model and hard to get a hold of now in Australia (I can't find a place that even sells it anymore, but I only did a quick search via Google).  I'll probably just go with onboard graphics initially, and then get a Radeon 850 card for the old (current) PC, and swap it with One of the Nvidia GT460 cards that I have in SLI mode.  Best bang for buck, upgrades 2 computers for the price of One  :-)  

 

I will do more research on air cooler and compatibility etc.  My concern was that the higher core CPUs such as the 1920x require water cooling, and air cooling being a big no-no.  If I can air cool, that is my preferred method and it's great to hear that PI runs the CPU warm (only) when processing.   Warm is better than hot.  

 

My bad on the 3700x, I swear I'm losing the plot these days.  

 

By the time I have the spare $ to build a new PI rig, everything will probably have changed lol (lots of problems with my current employer at the moment - the joys of being casual and having hours cut cos it's convenient for the employer!!!).  


  • bobzeq25 likes this

#33 OldManSky

OldManSky

    Skylab

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,418
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2019
  • Loc: Valley Center, CA USA

Posted 26 February 2020 - 08:24 PM

For some things, Windows will perform better, take this interesting video as a brief example:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=HRitBdb0rIw

 

note that Windows talks direct to dx9, whereas linux talks to dx9 (under wine) then to open gl 3, then the hardware.  So, not really an entirely fair comparison.  

 

I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll comment and then shut up...

You're right, that's not a fair comparison.  However, there's a point there that I think you may have overlooked...and the point is the existence of DX9 in Windows.  DX is a super-thin layer between the OS and graphics hardware.  It essentially gets out of the way fast, and lets software talk almost directly to the super-fast graphics hardware.  Even without the unfairness of that test in using wine, DX would still wipe the floor over OpenGL direct on Linux.  And contrary to the mentions of same-day security fixes for Linux above, OpenGL is way behind in support of graphics hardware features/updates (and simply doesn't support at all many things graphics hardware can do, so it does it in software).  

 

To be on topic...that won't matter for PI.  At least it won't matter much or hardly at all.  So the ability of Linux to use more cores and threads (Windows is certainly behind there), and the fact that Linux has less overhead than Windows, makes Linux the clear winner for PI (at least when you're above 16 cores/threads).  No question about it.

But for software that makes extensive use of graphics acceleration hardware, Windows is the clear winner when the software uses DX.  No question about it.  Which is why non-console games are written for Windows, and not very often at all for Linux (in addition to the market share issue).

 

(full disclosure:  I was a game developer for 25+ years, was the CTO of a big game software company, and was part of the "Graphics Advisory Board" that MS put together from people in the industry to help develop the first and subsequent versions of DX.  So, yes, I'm biased. But I applauded MS for coming up with DX then, and I still do -- short of native coding on a game console, it's the best OS/graphics interface available, and it's given companies other than MS the chance to make many billions selling games/graphics apps on Windows)


  • Ishtim likes this

#34 dpastern

dpastern

    Surveyor 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 1,614
  • Joined: 01 Jan 2009
  • Loc: Brisbane, Australia

Posted 26 February 2020 - 08:58 PM

I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll comment and then shut up...

You're right, that's not a fair comparison.  However, there's a point there that I think you may have overlooked...and the point is the existence of DX9 in Windows.  DX is a super-thin layer between the OS and graphics hardware.  It essentially gets out of the way fast, and lets software talk almost directly to the super-fast graphics hardware.  Even without the unfairness of that test in using wine, DX would still wipe the floor over OpenGL direct on Linux.  And contrary to the mentions of same-day security fixes for Linux above, OpenGL is way behind in support of graphics hardware features/updates (and simply doesn't support at all many things graphics hardware can do, so it does it in software).  

 

To be on topic...that won't matter for PI.  At least it won't matter much or hardly at all.  So the ability of Linux to use more cores and threads (Windows is certainly behind there), and the fact that Linux has less overhead than Windows, makes Linux the clear winner for PI (at least when you're above 16 cores/threads).  No question about it.

But for software that makes extensive use of graphics acceleration hardware, Windows is the clear winner when the software uses DX.  No question about it.  Which is why non-console games are written for Windows, and not very often at all for Linux (in addition to the market share issue).

 

(full disclosure:  I was a game developer for 25+ years, was the CTO of a big game software company, and was part of the "Graphics Advisory Board" that MS put together from people in the industry to help develop the first and subsequent versions of DX.  So, yes, I'm biased. But I applauded MS for coming up with DX then, and I still do -- short of native coding on a game console, it's the best OS/graphics interface available, and it's given companies other than MS the chance to make many billions selling games/graphics apps on Windows)

Who's fault is it that opengl doesn't support hardware?  I'd say manufacturers, who withhold information.  

 

I'll also say that opengl is cross platform, DX is wait for it...Microsoft only.  Far more difficult to develop for, but you should know this.  

 

Disk I/O, Linux smacks Windows hard.  Always has, even back in the 2.0 kernel days.  

 

DX pretty much applies to games only too btw, whereas opengl can be used for games, apps, you name it.  Big difference.  

 

Microsoft also knows that DX means more games, which means more Windows software sold (users buy Windows cos the games only run on Windows, and people who buy Windows usually buy Office, which is actually where the *real* monopoly is imho).  Force Microsoft to release Office for Linux and see how many people drop Windows for Linux...edit: Apple has nicely eating into the desktop market over the past 10 years and would be even stronger if they didn't have some bad hardware designs (see Louis Rossman, YouTube for more on that), and being way over priced...not to mention poor post sales customer service support (see Louis Rossman on that point too).  

 

But anyway, in regards to PI, Linux wins hands down on all accounts.  Remember that PI is developed natively on Linux.  That means any other version is a port, and ports always suffer performance issues from my experiences when not running on their native platform.  


Edited by dpastern, 26 February 2020 - 09:38 PM.

  • mikefulb and Jii like this

#35 MikiSJ

MikiSJ

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,189
  • Joined: 24 Feb 2006
  • Loc: San Jose, CA

Posted 27 February 2020 - 12:08 AM

how can you make that claim when you haven't used anything else?  I find that rather amusing.  

Oh, but I have. I have used several iterations of LINUX, a version of Unix to run SAP (I was certified in Financials), prior versions of Apple, a couple of versions of DOS (MS and Dr. DOS), IBM OS/2 and of course every version of Windows, including the current version of Windows 10 Version 1809 (Build17763.1039).

 

BTW, I was also reasonably competent running 1401 and 1440 emulation on IBM 360 Mods 20, 30, 40 & 50 and the original IBM 360 BPS natives BOS/TOS/DOS 360 (circa 1970). As a IBM CE I once broke two toes by dropping a 32kb core storage upgrade on my foot.

 

How 'bout you?



#36 dpastern

dpastern

    Surveyor 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 1,614
  • Joined: 01 Jan 2009
  • Loc: Brisbane, Australia

Posted 27 February 2020 - 07:04 AM

Oh, but I have. I have used several iterations of LINUX, a version of Unix to run SAP (I was certified in Financials), prior versions of Apple, a couple of versions of DOS (MS and Dr. DOS), IBM OS/2 and of course every version of Windows, including the current version of Windows 10 Version 1809 (Build17763.1039).

 

BTW, I was also reasonably competent running 1401 and 1440 emulation on IBM 360 Mods 20, 30, 40 & 50 and the original IBM 360 BPS natives BOS/TOS/DOS 360 (circa 1970). As a IBM CE I once broke two toes by dropping a 32kb core storage upgrade on my foot.

 

How 'bout you?

well, to be fair to me, your prior post, that I quoted and replied to, you did say:

 

 

I have been with MS ever since.

(1983).  Computers were certainly not main stream prior to that date, not even remotely close, not even in business.  Given the wording of your post, it was easy to understand that you had only used MS Windows since 1983.  

 

You also have an unfair advantage in age over me -  I was born in 1969...pretty hard to use computers as a 1 year old ;-)  And, they were obsolete by the time I was a teen too.  That said, I didn't get into computers until a mate pushed me in '97.  Up until then, I thought computers were a geek thing and had zero interest in them, despite having multiple opportunities.  

 

But, I digress - now knowing your full history, I'm impressed and apologies too.  I still disagree that Windows is better than anything else on the market, at least based on my personal experiences, interpretations and likes/dislikes.  Windows works the of a good UNIX operating system and that just...irks me!


Edited by dpastern, 27 February 2020 - 07:04 AM.


#37 guyroch

guyroch

    Vendor (BackyardEOS)

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 3,682
  • Joined: 22 Jan 2008
  • Loc: Under the clouds!

Posted 29 February 2020 - 07:39 PM

I'm that guy. I was about to log in to my thread to report success at last, but I saw this thread first and just could not not read it. I had some serious lessons to learn and I'm still walking on egg shells, but I got PI installed and ran my first benchmark with it. Using the Mint 19.3 distribution, and not letting myself do any software updates. That seems to be the kiss of death for this motherboard/chipset. I'll report status and benchmarks on the original thread.

 

Bob is right that as far as PI is concerned, I'm better off just running PI in windows. But there are other "benefits" to fighting this install. I've learned a lot installing linux, starting to learn to operate linux and fighting through the intricacies of the problems I'm having is very very frustrating educational.

 

So it can be done. The biggest problem for me is the Aorus Xtreme motherboard being so  new, there are still s/w or driver incompatibilities. Your mileage may vary depending on what MB you got for your system.

 

(and if you hear an earth-shattering scream tonight, its just me suffering another failed reboot)

I have to agree here, I have a Threadripper and it's running windows.

 

My take on this.... I don't really care if it takes me 60 minutes to run long WBPP process (on Windows) versus maybe 30'ish minutes for the same PI process under Linux. I process one, maybe two images per month. I may lose 2 x 30 minutes in one month, not a big deal.  Just my 2 cents.

 

Guylain


Edited by guyroch, 29 February 2020 - 07:40 PM.

  • Ishtim and tcchittyjr like this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics