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First Mono Setup

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#1 Lostone

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 10:22 PM

Hello Friends,
I ordered me a ASI1600MM Pro camera along with the 7 position filter wheel.  I'm wanting to move  from a OSC to  Mono in my imaging and have a couple of questions. 

The  filter wheel comes with LRGB, HA, Oiii & Sii filters.  I've seen people do post with using just the LRGB and maybe adding HA to the mix.  Here are the questions.

 

1. When shooting LRGB,  what is the Luminance  filters purpose?

 

2. I've seen people post images using LRGB + HA for details.  But I don't thing I've seen anyone use LRGB+HA+Oiii and Sii.  I'm gathering that when shooting LRGB you don't really use the other 3 and vice versa when shooting HA, Oiii & Sii your don't shoot or need to shoot with the other 4 filters.  Am I assuming correctly.

 

3. Does anyone have any sound advice for someone starting to shoot Mono that won't make there head spinning in 5 directions at once?

 

Thanks in advance.



#2 DSOs4Me

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 10:39 PM

LRGB for galaxies and clusters - Ha SIII OII for Nebula. Start with that, it will keep you busy for awhile.



#3 Lostone

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 11:34 PM

LRGB for galaxies and clusters - Ha SIII OII for Nebula. Start with that, it will keep you busy for awhile.

Thanks,  i'll keep that in mind



#4 bobzeq25

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 11:50 PM

Hello Friends,
I ordered me a ASI1600MM Pro camera along with the 7 position filter wheel.  I'm wanting to move  from a OSC to  Mono in my imaging and have a couple of questions. 

The  filter wheel comes with LRGB, HA, Oiii & Sii filters.  I've seen people do post with using just the LRGB and maybe adding HA to the mix.  Here are the questions.

 

1. When shooting LRGB,  what is the Luminance  filters purpose?

 

2. I've seen people post images using LRGB + HA for details.  But I don't thing I've seen anyone use LRGB+HA+Oiii and Sii.  I'm gathering that when shooting LRGB you don't really use the other 3 and vice versa when shooting HA, Oiii & Sii your don't shoot or need to shoot with the other 4 filters.  Am I assuming correctly.

 

3. Does anyone have any sound advice for someone starting to shoot Mono that won't make there head spinning in 5 directions at once?

 

Thanks in advance.

1.  Luminance is the main part of the image.  Your eyes see detail in black and white.  The RGB are basically used to "paint" the luminance.  Advanced processing will process the L differently.  It may be sharpened, and other things.  The RGB data can be noise reduced more, your eye will ignore the reduced sharpness.  It gets more complicated than that, obviously.

 

The reason LRGB works so well is that, when you take the L frames, you are using all the pixels on all the light, all the time.  That greatly improves signal to noise ratio, allowing for things like more sharpening.

 

The downside is that L inevitably decreases color (simple math), so you have to boost it, and the process is not perfect.  Straight RGB is preferred for the best color, but it takes _much_ more total imaging time.

 

2.  There's no reason you can't add other narrowband channels, but the processing gets very complicated.

 

3.  Start with simple LRGB, no narrowband.  Use either the tutorials of your choice, or better, a book like this one (the best I know, and my bookshelf is extensive).

 

https://www.amazon.c...d/dp/0999470906

 

I'd use APP at the start.  The book above uses PixInsight and Photoshop for examples of processing, but the basic material also applies to APP.  This is much simpler than adding learning PI to your load.  If/when you do go with PI, this book.

 

https://www.amazon.c...y/dp/3319976885

 

Don't sweat the time differences with L,R,G,B, too much.  The RGB filters will require about the same subexposure as your OSC did.  The L, about half that.  For total imaging time 3:1:1:1 is a good place to start.

 

When you've got it working, the postgraduate course in processing can be found here.

 

https://www.amazon.c.../dp/1138055360/


Edited by bobzeq25, 14 February 2020 - 11:55 PM.


#5 SeymoreStars

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 11:53 PM

Alternatively start with Ha filter only, this can be done successfully during moonlit nights.



#6 Lostone

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 12:37 AM

1.  Luminance is the main part of the image.  Your eyes see detail in black and white.  The RGB are basically used to "paint" the luminance.  Advanced processing will process the L differently.  It may be sharpened, and other things.  The RGB data can be noise reduced more, your eye will ignore the reduced sharpness.  It gets more complicated than that, obviously.

 

The reason LRGB works so well is that, when you take the L frames, you are using all the pixels on all the light, all the time.  That greatly improves signal to noise ratio, allowing for things like more sharpening.

 

The downside is that L inevitably decreases color (simple math), so you have to boost it, and the process is not perfect.  Straight RGB is preferred for the best color, but it takes _much_ more total imaging time.

 

2.  There's no reason you can't add other narrowband channels, but the processing gets very complicated.

 

3.  Start with simple LRGB, no narrowband.  Use either the tutorials of your choice, or better, a book like this one (the best I know, and my bookshelf is extensive).

 

https://www.amazon.c...d/dp/0999470906

 

I'd use APP at the start.  The book above uses PixInsight and Photoshop for examples of processing, but the basic material also applies to APP.  This is much simpler than adding learning PI to your load.  If/when you do go with PI, this book.

 

https://www.amazon.c...y/dp/3319976885

 

Don't sweat the time differences with L,R,G,B, too much.  The RGB filters will require about the same subexposure as your OSC did.  The L, about half that.  For total imaging time 3:1:1:1 is a good place to start.

 

When you've got it working, the postgraduate course in processing can be found here.

 

https://www.amazon.c.../dp/1138055360/

Thanks for the advice.  I'll be looking at the books you suggest.



#7 petert913

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 12:55 AM

You can see from the replies that moving from OSC to mono is kind of a big undertaking......



#8 Marcelofig

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 01:07 AM

Alternatively start with Ha filter only, this can be done successfully during moonlit nights.

+1

 

Yes, with Ha you can get fantastic images with almost zero effort and without bothering about light pollution.

 

The closest thing to instant satisfaction you'll find in this hobby.


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#9 Stelios

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 03:06 AM

I'm not much for monochrome images, so "just Ha" doesn't do it for me. But everyone's tastes are different.

 

I always seek to produce a color image. With that in mind:

 

For emission nebulae (optionally planetary nebulae as well) I tend to shoot Ha, Sii and Oiii only. 

 

For *spiral* galaxies I shoot LRGBHa--the Ha to enhance the star-producing regions, blended with red. There's a great tutorial in Light Vortex Astronomy when you get to that.

 

For other galaxies, globs and star clusters I shoot LRGB. Most of the detail comes from L, but you can create a super-luminance by blending RGB with L before combining with RGB. Detail comes from L, color from RGB. *But*, unless you shoot enough RGB, you may have too much color noise. 

 

For emission nebulae, in addition to narrowband, you can shoot them in LRGB, or in HaRGB (with Ha substituting for L to provide the detail). This results in a more "natural" look.


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#10 TareqPhoto

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 07:53 AM

You have amazing setup really, so you should know what you are doing, and you should already know about those filters you've got even before you get them, i don't buy something until i know enough about it before i buy, so when i bought those filters of LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII i was sure about how and where or when to use them, and i spent time getting busy with them.

 

I found out that LRGB can be used for all targets, nebula, galaxies, clusters, but the problem is when or where, under LP sky LRGB will have more issues, so that many are just focusing on nebulae to use NB filters only, and i try to use Ha more as this is the strongest signal for most targets, followed by OIII, but i started to get more of Ha/OIII/SII to produce that "Hubble Palette" results, almost there, so you just write down which target you like to do and focus on that for a while to get more understanding of how to image it and which filter, once done move to another target with another filters for experimenting, by the time you will have a better idea what you are doing or how to use those filters.


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#11 fewayne

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 11:01 AM

One of the big advantages to narrowband imaging is that it is relatively insensitive to light pollution, even from the Moon. It depends on the filter -- OIII is much more vulnerable to LP. But it means that you can acquire high-quality data when it would be otherwise very difficult. The downside is that the bandpasses on the most abundant, brightest elements in emission nebula don't map well to primary colors, since sulfur and hydrogen are both pretty red. So color narrowband images are always "false" color, frequently with bands assigned to primaries in wavelength order, the Hubble palette: SII to red, Ha to green, and OIII to blue.

You might also be interested in going back to some of your previous images and reprocessing them using newly-acquired, high-res low-noise Ha data for luminance. Adds detail and pop while potentially reducing the visible noise. Pete_XL has been doing a bit of that and the results have been amazing.
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#12 Madratter

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 02:04 PM

1. When shooting LRGB,  what is the Luminance  filters purpose?

 

You will get multiple answers on this because there are multiple purposes:

Bob talked about how L is the main part of the image - the lightness part and you kind of paint it with the RGB information. However, it leaves the questions about why use one at all instead of just not using a filter.

a) It cuts out some of the Infrared and Ultraviolet light. This is especially important when using a refractor.

b) It helps because if you had no filter, it would focus in a different place than if you had one of the R,G, or B filters.

c) Because it is allowing all the visible light through, it captures information much more quickly than using just a color filter.

 

2. I've seen people post images using LRGB + HA for details.  But I don't thing I've seen anyone use LRGB+HA+Oiii and Sii.  I'm gathering that when shooting LRGB you don't really use the other 3 and vice versa when shooting HA, Oiii & Sii your don't shoot or need to shoot with the other 4 filters.  Am I assuming correctly.

 

This really depends on what you are trying to accomplish. It would be rare to use both L and the narrowband filters at the same time. Some people do use RGB with narrow band filters in order to get more natural star colors. The penalty is more time capturing data and more difficult processing. Most people don't bother. The most common mix of narrowband and RGB is using Ha with RGB or even just with GB. Here is an example:

 

get.jpg?insecure

 

3. Does anyone have any sound advice for someone starting to shoot Mono that won't make there head spinning in 5 directions at once?

 

Learn to shoot and process just Ha or L well before you do LRGB or HaRGB. Learn to shoot and process RGB well before trying to add L or Ha with it.

 

While Open Clusters don't generally have the wow factor of other objects, they are excellent training grounds on learning how to do RGB imaging and processing. An excellent one to try this time of year that is also visually pleasing is M35 along with NGC 2158.

 

get.jpg?insecure

 

Globular clusters are also excellent training objects, but not so much for the color processing side as for proper focus, proper guiding, etc.


Edited by Madratter, 15 February 2020 - 02:05 PM.

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#13 fewayne

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 10:23 AM

+1 to MadRatter there. I personally DO enjoy mono images, but even if they're not really your cup of tea you can revel in pretty simple acquisition and processing for now, and merely sigh because they're not in color.

 

But it's not time wasted: You can go back later, when you've mastered the whole multichannel acquisition/processing workflow, and use those same mono Ha data again to enhance detail and tonality in your color images.


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#14 Lostone

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 11:35 AM

1. When shooting LRGB,  what is the Luminance  filters purpose?

 

You will get multiple answers on this because there are multiple purposes:

Bob talked about how L is the main part of the image - the lightness part and you kind of paint it with the RGB information. However, it leaves the questions about why use one at all instead of just not using a filter.

a) It cuts out some of the Infrared and Ultraviolet light. This is especially important when using a refractor.

b) It helps because if you had no filter, it would focus in a different place than if you had one of the R,G, or B filters.

c) Because it is allowing all the visible light through, it captures information much more quickly than using just a color filter.

 

2. I've seen people post images using LRGB + HA for details.  But I don't thing I've seen anyone use LRGB+HA+Oiii and Sii.  I'm gathering that when shooting LRGB you don't really use the other 3 and vice versa when shooting HA, Oiii & Sii your don't shoot or need to shoot with the other 4 filters.  Am I assuming correctly.

 

This really depends on what you are trying to accomplish. It would be rare to use both L and the narrowband filters at the same time. Some people do use RGB with narrow band filters in order to get more natural star colors. The penalty is more time capturing data and more difficult processing. Most people don't bother. The most common mix of narrowband and RGB is using Ha with RGB or even just with GB. Here is an example:

 

get.jpg?insecure

 

3. Does anyone have any sound advice for someone starting to shoot Mono that won't make there head spinning in 5 directions at once?

 

Learn to shoot and process just Ha or L well before you do LRGB or HaRGB. Learn to shoot and process RGB well before trying to add L or Ha with it.

 

While Open Clusters don't generally have the wow factor of other objects, they are excellent training grounds on learning how to do RGB imaging and processing. An excellent one to try this time of year that is also visually pleasing is M35 along with NGC 2158.

 

get.jpg?insecure

 

Globular clusters are also excellent training objects, but not so much for the color processing side as for proper focus, proper guiding, etc.

Thank you very much.  This is some great info to has out.  This will be a challenge going from a DSLR to OSC and now Mono.  Each one has its own learning curve.  My brain keep going back to my DSLR knowledge  which is peanuts compared  to the others in my brain.  Especially since my roots are as a landscape photographer.  Astrophotography is another from of landscape photography with a LOT more moving parts to the puzzle to figure out and learn.



#15 Lostone

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 11:42 AM

You have amazing setup really, so you should know what you are doing, and you should already know about those filters you've got even before you get them, i don't buy something until i know enough about it before i buy, so when i bought those filters of LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII i was sure about how and where or when to use them, and i spent time getting busy with them.

 

 

 

I have done a butt load of research, I'm coming from using a DSLR to OSC, and now am working my way to Narrowband.  When I started my venture down this road it was just with my DSLR and Lens. Than got a scope that I liked after review (WO 51),  Than upgraded to SW Esprit 100ED.  Added a OSC after that.  Now it's time for the next step that I didn't know I was willing to take till a friend of mine let me play with some of his raw data.  I was blow away with what I was able to do with that compared to my DSLR & OSC.



#16 TareqPhoto

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 10:42 PM

I have plenty of DSLRs, even a digital medium format and film cameras [medium and large format], i do all kind of photography from landscape to sports to portraits to macro, so i also came from photography background, but when i got into astronomy in 2017 i never touched my cameras to test or experience with them for long, i tried it once and no longer tried it again, so i saved to get the mount first then saved again very much to get the mono cooled camera and then i never looked back, so i forced myself to forget about my photography gear background to receive knowledge with astro gear and i am happy i did it, just taking time and i already took enough time since 2017 anyway.




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