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So, should I continue to pile on data to Bodes?

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#1 Ballyhoo

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 02:06 PM

I have three hours about, of M81/82, and tonight is clear. I am going to pack up my rig and head to a dark-site.  But, the prospect of imaging a different object is also looming.  How do you balance that, desire to image something else, versus continuing to add data to a current image?

 

Incidentally, I really do enjoy imaging this target.  It is also interesting to compare my three hours with my mono; and in December I imaged 5.5 with my OSC (ASI 294)..

 

Clearly I think that mono is winning out.
 

https://www.astrobin...r0vq2y/?nc=usern    (MONO, Jan 2020)   3 hours

 

 

https://www.astrobin...vigo/E/?nc=user   (OSC, DEC 2019)  5.5 hours

 

Top attachment is Bodes with mono, from last week.

 

Bottom is my first attempt at this object, one year ago. Can we stipulate Ballyhoo has made progress?

Attached Thumbnails

  • BODES MONOsc.jpg
  • BODES JAN 6 2019 sc.jpg

Edited by Ballyhoo, 23 February 2020 - 02:08 PM.

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#2 bobzeq25

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 02:12 PM

So stipulated.  <grin>

 

How much time is simply a personal decision.


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#3 richorn

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 02:19 PM

I am in one a month mode...  I spent about 6 weeks on M42, and now have about 4/5 weeks on NGC 2244.

 

I feel like all the extra hours make processing out "issues" so much easier, not to mention all the extra nebulosity 40-50 hours of narrowband gets you.

 

Then again, I haven't finished processing either image yet lol!


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#4 OldManSky

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 02:39 PM

I will also so stipulate.  :)

 

I think you probably have enough time on it.  Now you can work on the processing some more.  Learn star masks, for example -- your image shows plenty of detail, but almost no star color.  But more data isn't going to change that -- some new processing expertise will!


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#5 dawziecat

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 02:44 PM

I never know when to stop! My camera is particularly noisy so I feel compelled to pile up totally unreasonable amounts of time on my targets! There is no objective rule that says "stop here!" 

 

"How much should we get?" Answer "more, more, more!" (Apologies to Credence!)



#6 DrGomer

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 03:23 PM

If you are not happy with the signal-to-noise, then you should get more time. But know that a S/N improvement of 2, which is enough to be noticeable, takes about 4x the current data. So...if you are not happy with the S/N of your image, then ask if you are ok imaging for another 9 and 16.5hrs respectively.  If that is too much time for you, then there you have it. 



#7 Ballyhoo

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 03:36 PM

If you are not happy with the signal-to-noise, then you should get more time. But know that a S/N improvement of 2, which is enough to be noticeable, takes about 4x the current data. So...if you are not happy with the S/N of your image, then ask if you are ok imaging for another 9 and 16.5hrs respectively.  If that is too much time for you, then there you have it. 

perhaps even 25% more SnR would be good too.



#8 Madratter

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 03:37 PM

IMO the big improvements to be had here are in better processing technique. Until you have that, adding much more time will help, but won't make a drastic difference.

 

You have made tremendous strides. And the mono version is clearly better. :)


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#9 Ballyhoo

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 04:08 PM

I am just wondering how much more mileage out of proccing can get and also maintaining  a sense of realism. I think there is where the real skill is. 



#10 Madratter

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 04:14 PM

I am just wondering how much more mileage out of proccing can get and also maintaining  a sense of realism. I think there is where the real skill is. 

It is more a matter of developing a style and then consistently delivering on that style. If your style happens to appeal to others, that is a nice perk.

 

There are some people on Astrobin with very refined styles requiring much skill to produce. And I don't care for their work one iota. I'm sure they don't care.


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#11 17.5Dob

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 05:04 PM

No IFN showing up yet, so keep on piling....


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#12 Ballyhoo

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 05:24 PM

No IFN showing up yet, so keep on piling....

yea?



#13 Stelios

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 08:22 PM

You have definitely made a lot of progress, and the mono image is very nice--but, although I understand it's a matter of taste, I'd want to get more color out of it. The ASI294 image, while good, is too rosy and doesn't quite have the detail.



#14 Ballyhoo

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 09:00 PM

You have definitely made a lot of progress, and the mono image is very nice--but, although I understand it's a matter of taste, I'd want to get more color out of it. The ASI294 image, while good, is too rosy and doesn't quite have the detail.

I am not sure what the gentleman means by IFN though. Inter f nebulosity.....?   So I am still new at this...

 

but  am presuming you are saying for me to get mo data.


Edited by Ballyhoo, 23 February 2020 - 09:02 PM.


#15 17.5Dob

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 09:02 PM

I am not sure what the gentleman means by IFN though. Inter f nebulosity.....?   So I am still new at this...

IFN= "Integrated Flux Nebula"

http://www.astro-pho...d-annotated.jpg

 


Edited by 17.5Dob, 23 February 2020 - 09:13 PM.


#16 SnowWolf

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 12:55 PM

One idea is maybe get some Ha data.  There's lots of Ha stuff in both M81 and M82. That'll also give you the project of learning how to integrate Ha into LRGB.  

 

Another possibility is to move on to your next target and come back to these later.  As they are so close to the NCP, you can do them almost anytime of the year. Your current data will still be there. Just don't sell your scope/camera/reducer between now and then.

 

I'm working on those two, as well, with the same scope/reducer as yours and the ASI183MM-Pro camera .  So far I've got 13 hours - 6.5 L, 1.5 each RGB and 2 hours Ha.  I'm just starting to see the IFN in the L.


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#17 Ballyhoo

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 01:06 PM

One idea is maybe get some Ha data.  There's lots of Ha stuff in both M81 and M82. That'll also give you the project of learning how to integrate Ha into LRGB.  

 

Another possibility is to move on to your next target and come back to these later.  As they are so close to the NCP, you can do them almost anytime of the year. Your current data will still be there. Just don't sell your scope/camera/reducer between now and then.

 

I'm working on those two, as well, with the same scope/reducer as yours and the ASI183MM-Pro camera .  So far I've got 13 hours - 6.5 L, 1.5 each RGB and 2 hours Ha.  I'm just starting to see the IFN in the L.

this is really an interesting point. I had no idea there was much HA there. is it like that for a lot of the galaxies in the messier catalog?



#18 Stelios

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 01:31 PM

this is really an interesting point. I had no idea there was much HA there. is it like that for a lot of the galaxies in the messier catalog?

Ha data (and you don't need a lot) helps show the star-producing regions in *spiral* galaxies. 

 

In my previous comment I simply meant you should increase your color saturation a bit, not get more data. 


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#19 SnowWolf

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 01:59 PM

this is really an interesting point. I had no idea there was much HA there. is it like that for a lot of the galaxies in the messier catalog?

As Stelios says, they are the star forming regions in galaxies, so I'm guessing most have them. I know M33 does.  I did it last fall with my DSLR (before I got the ASI183MM) and noted the absence of red/pink spots you see in many pictures of it:

 

M33
 
So, that's gonna be my project for late summer/early fall - re-do M33 with the 183.

 

If you think about it, those spots in other galaxies are the same as the big red/pink emission nebulae we see in our own galaxy, we're just seeing those much closer up. They show up much better in Ha.


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#20 jerahian

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 06:10 PM

this is really an interesting point. I had no idea there was much HA there. is it like that for a lot of the galaxies in the messier catalog?

Here is a great example of M101 shot in Ha:  https://www.astrobin...z7gzkl/?nc=user

 

Blending the Ha signal in with R produces some beautifully bejeweled areas of galaxy arms.  Of course, this is really mostly useful with the closest and largest of galaxies, where these strong star-forming regions can be distinguished.  It's what an amateur astrophotographer on a planet in a solar system in the Andromeda Galaxy would do to highlight the beautiful Orion Nebula in their image of the Milky Way :)



#21 nimitz69

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Posted 25 February 2020 - 12:29 PM

I have three hours about, of M81/82, and tonight is clear. I am going to pack up my rig and head to a dark-site.  But, the prospect of imaging a different object is also looming.  How do you balance that, desire to image something else, versus continuing to add data to a current image?

 

Incidentally, I really do enjoy imaging this target.  It is also interesting to compare my three hours with my mono; and in December I imaged 5.5 with my OSC (ASI 294)..

 

Clearly I think that mono is winning out.
 

https://www.astrobin...r0vq2y/?nc=usern    (MONO, Jan 2020)   3 hours

 

 

https://www.astrobin...vigo/E/?nc=user   (OSC, DEC 2019)  5.5 hours

 

Top attachment is Bodes with mono, from last week.

 

Bottom is my first attempt at this object, one year ago. Can we stipulate Ballyhoo has made progress?

The answer to your dilemma is simple:

 

are you happy with your image the way it is or not?

 

more total integration time will always result in an improved image (all else being equal) but only YOU can decide when enough is enough.  What’s the final disposition of your image? Large format print on your wall????  Better get a lot more data.  Add to your Astrobin shrine to yourself highlighting your AP skills for your adoring worldwide fans to envy?  Probably a few more hrs are needed.  Add to your astro pic files on your home computer for eventually showing to your non-astronomy friends at your next cocktail party?  Probably good enough & you can move on.  Trying to catalog 5,000 DSOs from your dark site as photos?  Better really get a move on to the next one .... dalek12.gif

 

Self validation is the only true path to AP enlightenment 


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