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the time has come to order my tak.

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#26 Hesiod

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Posted 03 March 2020 - 12:51 PM

Once a certain level is past, I doubt we can see real differences so, if have already an almost-perfect refractor, do not expect miracles.

 

Said so, in my small experience each telescope has its "personality", with minor differences in tones/hues which may cause the observer to prefer it over equally good alternatives.

I use more often the DF because it is easier to handle, but personally prefer the views in the rather "unwieldy" DL: both can show exactly the same features, and rank them as very proficient to have a "mere" 100mm aperture but like more the DL's rendition of some features/structures, e.g. yellow/red stars.

How worth to you may be these subtle difference could be the question should try to answer to judge if "need" the Takahashi (of course there may be other reasons, but I tired to focus on the performance aspect, leaving out considerations about collectability etc...).

 

I have noticed that several people list the DL as still available: did Takahashi revised their plans and opted to keep crafting it? Were this the case would be indeed a good news!


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#27 mikeDnight

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Posted 03 March 2020 - 01:07 PM

I've not used the SV triplet you speak of Steve. Is there any chance you could compare the SV alongside a FC? The DL is superb as a planetary scope, and all the Tak's have amazing power capabilities under the right conditions. Would a DZ cover all bases, allowing you to perhaps sell the SV to help cover some of the cost?



#28 coopman

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Posted 03 March 2020 - 02:29 PM

Surely you can also use your 2" accessories with the SV102, correct? Unless you have a spare $3,000 laying around, it would probably be best to sell the SV102 to help pay for the Tak. That's what I would have to do anyways.

#29 Lookitup

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Posted 03 March 2020 - 02:49 PM

With faster cooling to boot. IMO comparing 4" scopes can get tedious. Do it a lot with Tak DF and Orion ED100. While it's fun with different focal lengths, the Tak takes the crown in everyday use.  



#30 kmparsons

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Posted 03 March 2020 - 03:03 PM

Coopman, 

 

Yes, I can use my 2" accessories with my SV 102. Sorry if I did not make that clear. I mentioned it because I also would want to use them with a TAK, and I have seen some people express reservations about using 2" accessories with some of the TAKs. I am  a professor of philosophy, so, no, I do not have $3000 lying around. I make extra money in the summer, and I might swing it then. My concern with the SV 102 is that it is excellent, and I am afraid that a TAK with an f/7 ratio would pretty much reproduce the capabilities of the scope I already have. Therefore, I am thinking about getting the longer-focus TAK for planets and Moon. Getting a TAK to complement rather than replace my SV, in other words. 


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#31 bobhen

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Posted 03 March 2020 - 03:34 PM

I am in a similar situation. I want to buy a TAK 100mm with two considerations: (1) I want to use my 2" diagonal and 2" eyepieces. (2) I already have The SV 102 mm f/7 triplet, and I am very pleased with its performance and do not see how the view could be significantly improved. So, should I get the long-focus TAK DL for planetary and lunar while using the SV for wide-angle and lower power observing? I am strictly a visual observer. Thanks. 

You might want to consider selling the SV 102 F7 and use the funds to help purchase a Takahashi TSA 120. The performance boost with the added 18 mm aperture of the Tak TSA 120 will be noticeable in the eyepiece. But the Tak TSA 120 at 13-pounds bare OTA is portable enough to use on an AVX-class mount or on one of the many alt/az mounts out there.

If you still want ultra wide field viewing, pick up a simple and inexpensive Sky Watcher 102 mm F5 achromatic refractor. At the lowish powers used for wide field observing, you will be hard-pressed to see any color. And at F5, the views will be even wider than your 102 F7 refractor.

Bob


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#32 AZStarGuy

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Posted 03 March 2020 - 05:40 PM

For your intended purpose, you really can't go wrong with either the DL or the DZ.  If it were up to me, I'd get the DL at F9.  I'm also thinking that you don't need another scope for wide field.  The DL with a 31mm Nagler would yield ~2.8 degrees and have a 3.4mm exit pupil which is very usable, especially from a less-than-dark sky site like a suburban backyard.  If you want anything wider, just use binos.  

 

Regarding the subtle differences between the models, IMO the differences are bigger on paper and moot in application.  There are very very few people on here who would ever be able to see the difference between Taks running at F9, F8 or F7.5 I'm also willing to bet that your seeing in Ottawa 364 of 365 days would prevent that level of analysis from happening anyway...  That doesn't stop the armchair opticians from weighing in though.  That's the fun of CN!  Lots of opinions and plenty of input to peruse in your downtime, just don't loose sight of reality.  

 

If your mount can handle the F9 with a Nagler 31, I'd go with that.  If it can't or you can't find a DL and there's a good deal on a DZ, I'd grab that and not look back.  Taks are very good.  You will smile at the eyepiece!  


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#33 DeanD

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Posted 03 March 2020 - 07:03 PM

Coopman, 

 

Yes, I can use my 2" accessories with my SV 102. Sorry if I did not make that clear. I mentioned it because I also would want to use them with a TAK, and I have seen some people express reservations about using 2" accessories with some of the TAKs. I am  a professor of philosophy, so, no, I do not have $3000 lying around. I make extra money in the summer, and I might swing it then. My concern with the SV 102 is that it is excellent, and I am afraid that a TAK with an f/7 ratio would pretty much reproduce the capabilities of the scope I already have. Therefore, I am thinking about getting the longer-focus TAK for planets and Moon. Getting a TAK to complement rather than replace my SV, in other words. 

Hi Keith, I agree with Alberto's comment (#26 above) that above a certain level of optics you effectively achieve near perfection. I doubt therefore that you could see any difference between your SV and an f7 Tak doublet: maybe a very slight difference in perceived colour hue. For example I have read elsewhere that the old Tak FS might have been marginally better than the TSA for observing at the red end of the spectrum, so this may give slightly better contrast on Mars; but I think that would be about all.

 

So, if you want to complement your SV, then I believe that the f9 Tak is the way to go.

 

Personally though I suspect that the SV will give you near perfect high power views anyway, and any difference even with with the Tak f9 would be marginal at best. If you don't have a bottomless wallet, then my thought would be to keep the SV and invest in a Nagler 3-6mm zoom eyepiece instead of a new scope: this enables you to adjust magnification for the best high-power views on any given night with respect to the seeing. I find this to be a magical eyepiece, and it is brilliant with my TSA 102.

 

All the best,

 

Dean


Edited by DeanD, 03 March 2020 - 07:04 PM.

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#34 kmparsons

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Posted 03 March 2020 - 07:23 PM

Dean, 

 

Wow. This is excellent advice. Sounds like the Nagler zoom is the way to go. My wife will also be happier with one less telescope in the house. 


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#35 DeanD

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Posted 03 March 2020 - 08:00 PM

Dean, 

 

Wow. This is excellent advice. Sounds like the Nagler zoom is the way to go. My wife will also be happier with one less telescope in the house. 

As a wise real estate agent once said to me when we were contemplating different housing locations: "Happy wife, happy life!"  ;)
 



#36 sunnyday

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Posted 03 March 2020 - 08:12 PM

For your intended purpose, you really can't go wrong with either the DL or the DZ.  If it were up to me, I'd get the DL at F9.  I'm also thinking that you don't need another scope for wide field.  The DL with a 31mm Nagler would yield ~2.8 degrees and have a 3.4mm exit pupil which is very usable, especially from a less-than-dark sky site like a suburban backyard.  If you want anything wider, just use binos.  

 

Regarding the subtle differences between the models, IMO the differences are bigger on paper and moot in application.  There are very very few people on here who would ever be able to see the difference between Taks running at F9, F8 or F7.5 I'm also willing to bet that your seeing in Ottawa 364 of 365 days would prevent that level of analysis from happening anyway...  That doesn't stop the armchair opticians from weighing in though.  That's the fun of CN!  Lots of opinions and plenty of input to peruse in your downtime, just don't loose sight of reality.  

 

If your mount can handle the F9 with a Nagler 31, I'd go with that.  If it can't or you can't find a DL and there's a good deal on a DZ, I'd grab that and not look back.  Taks are very good.  You will smile at the eyepiece!  

thank you i thought i read somewhere that the dz was for photography.
as for the mount well, I'm going to put this on a very good mount, like this SkyWatcher AZ-EQ5 GT PRO.



#37 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 12:00 AM

I hope daniel will see my tread.

 

I must say that it is quite difficult to get a good idea, with all these dl, dz, fc fs ...

Yes, I've been reading your thread but I should tell you that you'll do fine without my detailed opinion. The guys here have done a wonderful job with their suggestions and they deserve credit. With regard the the DL's, yes I've compared a number of samples but held off posting too much because I wasn't ready to make another big shootout just yet. Regardless, the others in this thread really have made some wise comments. You can't go wrong with any of these Taks. They are all absolutely wonderful and if it makes you feel any better, I'm using a DC and it's portable. I hope to finalize another 4" hyper shootout part II with some newer scopes this planet season with the guys. Thank you all for being so supportive. 


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#38 Sky Muse

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 01:31 AM

I have one of the "old ones", an FS-102, at f/8, and in later years, to this day, I wish it were an f/10, at least.  Not for further suppression of false-colour, but for greater ease in reaching the higher powers, and to me, what a telescope is all about.  The mysterious mating-element, the "flint", and right behind the fluorite, was not "eco-friendly" as that of the current models, not by a long shot.  In fact, it was solely responsible for the advent of eco-glass for the mating-elements of the current models.  The only way to see the element is by either separating the doublet, or via this chance shot of my PC's blue led passing through...

 

fluorite doublet7.jpg  

 

It was during the manufacturing of the mating-elements that was hazardous, and deadly even I had read.  Otherwise, it's inert. 

 

Ah, but the views; they make my heart race each and every time.  Eventually, I won't be able to observe through it as a result, and all of my general-purpose eyepieces are nothing special...

 

fluorite doublet.jpg

 

It's all the refractor I'll ever need or want, and beyond.  Incidentally, I chose it over the Tele Vue TV102 at the time, and for its reduced light-scattering; and boy did it pay off when I split Sirius back in the early 2000s. 


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#39 25585

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 02:05 AM

Keeping Japanese, if you have a 100 already, a Vixen SD115S will be an excellent doublet. It's not fluoride lensed, but Vixen SD lenses are some of the best.    



#40 Erik Bakker

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 07:13 AM

My choice would be the DZ.

The sliding dew shield and shorter focal ratio make it more portable and manageable than the DL. 

 

I've tested the DL in person and it's lengthy thin tube reminded me of my old 76mm f/12 achromat. In comparison with my stubby and much shorter FS-102 NSV, the difference was striking. Optically it was very good, with a tad less color out of focus, but with my sample of the FS-102 having slightly better spherical correction. Hence I did not by the DL. I am tempted to get a DZ though.

 

Slightly higher powers with a given eyepiece are an advantage of the DL if you don't mind the longer tube and fixed dew shield.


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#41 25585

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 09:13 AM

My choice would be the DZ.

The sliding dew shield and shorter focal ratio make it more portable and manageable than the DL. 

 

I've tested the DL in person and it's lengthy thin tube reminded me of my old 76mm f/12 achromat. In comparison with my stubby and much shorter FS-102 NSV, the difference was striking. Optically it was very good, with a tad less color out of focus, but with my sample of the FS-102 having slightly better spherical correction. Hence I did not by the DL. I am tempted to get a DZ though.

 

Slightly higher powers with a given eyepiece are an advantage of the DL if you don't mind the longer tube and fixed dew shield.

Also longer FL eyepieces can be used with a 900mm. 100x with a 9mm, 200x with a 4.5mm. But also at wider views with a 40mm, exit pupil is kept below 5mm.

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#42 m9x18

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 11:57 AM

Thank you 25585 for this most useful and helpful field of view visual aid. As for the FC-100DL, I find my DL to be a thing a beauty that delivers things of beauty. The 900mm focal length may be an issue to some individuals but is recognized by others for its inherent advantages. In my case, this is not my only telescope. I also have other quality instruments to deliver even wider low power fields of view while still delivering sharp high magnification images. But for lunar, planetary and double star observing, on a good night, it's hard to beat the many wonderful gifts that the DL brings to the table. It's even hard to best it with low magnification sweeps of the night sky. I am very happy with mine and recommend it highly. That said, the DZ is the new kid on the block and brings much to the table too. Especially if one is likely to pursue astrophotography as a prime interest.       


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#43 25585

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 12:06 PM

There's a used Tak DL in the CN classifieds with some extras for $1,875

 

There's a used Tak TSA 102 in the CN classifieds with a lot of goodies for $3,500. Note that there is a typo in the copy stating the scope is a TOA but it’s a TSA as stated in the list of extras and TSA is printed on the dew shield in the image.

 

All of the Tak 4" doublet refractors are top quality and you will "love" whatever one you pick.

 

The TSA 102 is a triplet and TSA optics (in the 102 and the 120 mm size) are some of the best optics produced for the amateur market. You cannot do better than a TSA 102.

 

Bob

If its still there, go for the TSA. Heavier but its 4" triplet perfection. 


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#44 sunnyday

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 01:12 PM

Also longer FL eyepieces can be used with a 900mm. 100x with a 9mm, 200x with a 4.5mm. But also at wider views with a 40mm, exit pupil is kept below 5mm.

thank you so much
very informative.


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#45 sunnyday

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 01:39 PM

My choice would be the DZ.

The sliding dew shield and shorter focal ratio make it more portable and manageable than the DL. 

 

I've tested the DL in person and it's lengthy thin tube reminded me of my old 76mm f/12 achromat. In comparison with my stubby and much shorter FS-102 NSV, the difference was striking. Optically it was very good, with a tad less color out of focus, but with my sample of the FS-102 having slightly better spherical correction. Hence I did not by the DL. I am tempted to get a DZ though.

 

Slightly higher powers with a given eyepiece are an advantage of the DL if you don't mind the longer tube and fixed dew shield.

what I read the dz seems to be for photography mainly.
from what I understand too.
maybe there is no difference after all.?



#46 NickWDavis

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 07:11 PM

Just pick one. The suspense is killing me.


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#47 sunnyday

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 08:12 PM

one thing is weird,
takahashi usa has them in stock the dl, dz, but can not respond to orders from other countries between 3 to 6 months of time and they say to prioritize orders from the usa, I understand, besides the usa they serve who?
in north america there are only 3 countries.

 

a chance, i still have to read something about them.



#48 Ihtegla Sar

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 08:31 PM

I think they may only sell through dealers.

I got my DL from Woodland Hills. Looks like they are still in stock.

https://telescopes.n...-refractor.html

They also have the DZ.

https://telescopes.n...-telescope.html

Edited by Ihtegla Sar, 04 March 2020 - 08:33 PM.

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#49 sunnyday

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 08:40 PM

I got my DL from Woodland Hills. Looks like they are still in stock.

https://telescopes.n...-refractor.html

thank you, if it ever takes too long of course, i will order it from the usa, but i prefer to do business with a canadian reseller, near me preferably, and there is one in my city.
this is purely a matter of doing business with a store near my home and encouraging it.


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#50 Lookitup

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 09:36 PM

one thing is weird,
takahashi usa has them in stock the dl, dz, but can not respond to orders from other countries between 3 to 6 months of time and they say to prioritize orders from the usa, I understand, besides the usa they serve who?
in north america there are only 3 countries.

 

a chance, i still have to read something about them.

One way would be just get the used Fc100DF with K-Aztec rings in the classifieds if still avail. Then use EP's to manage mag's. I use with 84 degrees EP's or 60 degrees, to compensate for FOV's differentiation.  


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