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Classic orange tube C8 - arrived in a bad way

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#1 Brollen

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Posted 19 March 2020 - 10:02 PM

So I'm writing this wondering what my options are and hoping the collective experience and wisdom on this forum can help me out.

 

I very recently purchased a classic orange tube C8 here on CN classifieds, that was shipped to me via UPS. As I've often read and now experienced, it looks like UPS totally mistreated this package. The owner sent the C8 and related pieces unfortunately in a rather flimsy box and attempted to pad the C8 with thick foam. I also believe that the diagonal and EP were loaded into the VB for shipping. The whole thing was taped up securely with some extra bags and padding thrown in - but still the box was flimsy and thin walled - the type of box whose walls shift depending on how it is grabbed.

 

When I received the package, I was amazed at how light it was. I got a little sick when I heard the sound of something sliding as I hoisted the box up and swung around with it.

 

Upon opening the box, and pulling the scope up, my horror and disappointment where realized. The inside of the tube had bits of broken glass laying in the tube, close to the corrector. The secondary mirror was sitting in the tube. Close inspection of the primary showed it to be in pretty good shape except for approximately 3 edge chips where I assume the secondary had slammed into it. The owner seemed to have shipped the scope with the original diagonal and kellner EP loaded up. Near as I can tell, the package was dropped on the VB side as the diagonal was completely shattered - the prism and bits of the diagonal strewn freely in the box as was the EP. Lastly the threaded lip of the VB had been shorn and partially peeled out in one place, from the trauma of the drop on the diagonal which I imagine caused the tear in the VB's threaded end.

 

What a disappointment. 

 

I have entered a claim with UPS for the cost of the scope and that claim is being processed now.

 

My questions - many questions - are as follows:

 

1. What are people's experiences with UPS claims? Do they own up or is it like pulling teeth?

2. If UPS does pay up, do they request the busted merchandise?

 

On question #2 I'm curious because I am wondering if the scope is salvageable?

 

1. As I said, the primary looks to be in good shape other than the chips on the edge, which aren't very big.

2. The corrector also looks to be in good shape, I see a few scratches from the secondary, I feel like, but it also is potentially workable.

3. All the broken glass is a mystery as one piece of glass looks much bigger than any of the mirror chips. It may be from the secondary but from what I can see, the secondary looks ok.

4. Is it possible the glass is from the diagonal? Is there glass in these old diagonals in addition to the prism? When that diagonal exploded, maybe some of that glass went through the baffle into the tube.

 

I haven't opened it up pending the UPS claim resolution - I want them to see it as is if they come out.

 

So will UPS allow me to keep this classic C8 even if they pay out?

 

Does it sound salvageable if they leave it with me or is it a fool's errand to pursue? I've read here on CN of people using C8s with cracked correctors or having issues with the mirror and still claiming to have enjoyable views. My biggest concern is the secondary.

 

What tricks are there in re-attaching the secondary mirror? If it is the secondary mirror that produced the broken glass, am I then screwed? The secondary is mirrored surface up in the tube and from what I can tell that mirrored surface appears to be unscathed. Clearly I will need to pull of the front corrector and remove all the broken glass and finally get the secondary. Once I do that I'll have a better idea of what's going on...

 

Thanks for any feedback and advice as I am really hoping to keep this C8 and nurse it back to life.

 

Roger


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#2 Augustus

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Posted 19 March 2020 - 10:20 PM

Seller was an idiot for shipping the scope with the VB on let alone the diagonal... the VB allows the force of an impact to be localized to one point and Celestron recommends shipping with it detached for this reason. Honestly, I'd blame the seller and not UPS here. UPS won't want to keep it - it's of no use to them - so filing a claim would be fine, but I would emphasize that this seems to be more poor thinking on the seller's end than UPS beating the hell out of it.

As for the scope itself - remove the corrector, dump the glass bits out and it really should be just fine. I would guess the floating glass is mostly the diagonal, which is replaceable and cheap by comparison. The secondary is easy to reinstall, just use clear silicone (no need for spacers though). Maybe blacken the chips on the primary with a Sharpie or mask them off with paper/cardboard. I'm sure it'll be a fine performer.

Edited by Augustus, 19 March 2020 - 10:54 PM.

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#3 dmcnally

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Posted 19 March 2020 - 10:24 PM

Sorry to hear about your experience.  Several years ago I shipped an 8" f/5 Newtonian using UPS.  It was double boxed with foam padding between the boxes and around the OTA.  The box looked like it was poked by the fork of a forklift.  Both boxes were punctured and the tube and mirror cell were damaged. 

 

The buyer contacted me.  I suggested that he take lots of pictures and file a claim.  UPS, to their credit, settled the claim for the full amount (scope + shipping) within 48 hours and let the buyer (claim filer) keep the pieces.

 

Good luck,

Dave


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#4 D_talley

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Posted 19 March 2020 - 10:25 PM

Next time a SCT is shipped or any scope for that matter, it should be double boxed.  People do not realize the forces that a package has to deal with. Double boxing will help protect that scope.  

 

I have seen people try to ship using wadded newspaper as packing. That does not work either.  


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#5 Augustus

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Posted 19 March 2020 - 10:33 PM

Next time a SCT is shipped or any scope for that matter, it should be double boxed. People do not realize the forces that a package has to deal with. Double boxing will help protect that scope.

I have seen people try to ship using wadded newspaper as packing. That does not work either.


I have shipped a couple dozen SCTs in single boxes with no problems. The key is just competent packing, which most folks struggle with.
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#6 ShaulaB

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Posted 19 March 2020 - 10:44 PM

So sorry to hear about this. Hope you can rescue this fine classic. flowerred.gif


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#7 cookjaiii

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Posted 19 March 2020 - 10:46 PM

Sorry to hear about your experience.  Several years ago I shipped an 8" f/5 Newtonian using UPS.  It was double boxed with foam padding between the boxes and around the OTA.  The box looked like it was poked by the fork of a forklift.  Both boxes were punctured and the tube and mirror cell were damaged. 

 

The buyer contacted me.  I suggested that he take lots of pictures and file a claim.  UPS, to their credit, settled the claim for the full amount (scope + shipping) within 48 hours and let the buyer (claim filer) keep the pieces.

 

Good luck,

Dave

In the case where a fork lift speared the box, it was clear that UPS was at fault.  No surprise they took responsibility, because if they didn't, they would lose in court.  The OP's case sounds different.  A reasonable argument can be made for shared responsibility - the packer and the shipper, and sorry to say that UPS probably won't pay - at least not full cost.  

 

I assume the seller arranged the shipping with UPS.  If so, the insurance coverage would belong to him, and he is the one who must file the claim.  The seller should refund your money and deal with his problem himself. I don't see how you should be responsible for anything other than providing photos of the damage.


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#8 aa6ww

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 02:04 AM

I had a forklift jam into a small 4" william optics scope years ago, that I sold to a CN person. When he received the scope, it was damaged beyond repair. Even shattered the hard case it came in.

Since I had it insured, I was the one who had to file a claim. I went to the place I shipped it from. It was one of the UPS Store outlets. The owner there was excellent. He did all the processing, and only asked me for a copy of the advertisement I bought it from. I also gave him a copy of what it would have cost new. I gave him the receipt also.

I contacted the buyer who was very upset, and told him he will have to surrender the package for inspection. UPS was going to pick it up. He wouldn't give it up and I told him that's the only way he will get reimbursed. 

The process was, hey would surrender the package, they would assess the damage. Then they would issue me a check, I would have to then cash the check and have another check made out to him, then send him the check.

 

He wouldn't do it, so I said you have a time limit on surrendering the scope. I told him give me a time and i will set up a pick up, through the UPS store.  I think he was giving about 2 weeks. I don't remember the actual time line. I told him this is how the insurance works.

I was going to send him the money myself, but only after he surrendered the scope, but he was a jerk so I didn't care if this dragged out for a year or more.

 

Finally, he contacted me and said ok so i had them pick up the scope. About 10 days later, the UPS Store contacted me and said they had a check for the price of the insurance, which was more then what I sold him the scope for.  

 

I let him know I had the check and cashed it, and sent him another check for the entire amount in a registered letter. 

I never heard from him but that's ok. The whole process took less then a month, mostly because of his reluctance to surrender the scope to UPS.

 

This was about a dozen years ago. 

 

...Ralph


Edited by aa6ww, 20 March 2020 - 02:12 AM.

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#9 Littlegreenman

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 03:05 AM

The seller has a responsibility to adequately pack any item they are shipping. This seller did not do that. It could be a lack of giving a darn on the seller's part,or ignorance of the risks involved, or wishful thinking. If they operate a motor vehicle and get into an accident as a result of any of those attitudes, they are still responsible.

Time is of the essence. I would file claims with:

 

  • UPS
  • The seller (see below)
  • Paypal or a credit card company if you paid with either one

I've had a few similar situations, which is why I recommend pursuing a claim with all 3. By the time UPS, Paypal, or a credit card company makes a decision, the window to claims with the one might expire.

 

Contact the seller, informing them of the problem, and politely bring up the subject of a refund or a partial refund. If the seller does not act honorably, please leave them factual feedback with an appropriate.

 

Consider that with vintage items like this, even slight cosmetic damage can lower the market value by 50% or more. A tiny chip on the corrector may not affect the view, but will have big affect on trying to sell it. There are a lot of undamaged vintage C8's out there, and I see several a month coming up for sale these days. If I were looking to buy one, I would just skip any with a ding or a chip of glass. And, it will take longer to find a buyer.

Consider also that cosmetic damage may turn out to also include functional damage. Something may be bent or misaligned interfering with the operation of the focuser or collimation.


Edited by Littlegreenman, 20 March 2020 - 03:08 AM.

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#10 CHASLX200

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 05:39 AM

UPS will do whatever it takes not to pay out. No wonder i got out of this game with the high shipping prices and damage.


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#11 mfalls

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 06:17 AM

From my somewhat limited experience:

1. UPS will not pay a claim unless:

    a) UPS store did the packing

    b) UPS store inspected and approved your packing. Still a chance they will not pay.

 

From my understanding the seller should be responsible for filing UPS claim.

 

Any insurance purchased from UPS may just cover them losing the package, not rough handling on their part.  


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#12 Brollen

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 07:35 AM

Wow ... I appreciate all the feedback, especially regarding what to expect from UPS. I'll contact the seller, who has gone "silent" on me, regarding filling a UPS claim - maybe mine can be transferred to him. It seems odd to me though that the seller files the claim, as I am the one who paid out the money and it is I that possess the package and contents related to the claim. If he gets the money, he is doubly paid and I am left to hope that I get reimbursed.

 

Here is a photo I took this morning showing the trifecta of issues - glass inside the tube near the corrector, the secondary mirror sitting halfway up the tube, and the primary mirror having small chips in the mirror's edge can be seen at the bottom and to the left.

 

I'll also pursue the PayPal claim option.

 

Regarding reattaching the secondary - is its orientation critical, i.e., are there alignment marks for positioning it or can I just reattach it? Also, something that puzzles me is, if I reattach it say with a silicone adhesive, etc., how is it that the collimation screws work? Are they pressing against the back of whatever the secondary attaches to and that holder pivots around a center point, based on the pressure from the 3 screws?

 

Thanks again

Roger

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#13 G-Tower

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 08:15 AM

Unless it was shipped by a UPS store it will be virtually impossible to collect anything. They will always use the "insufficient packing" reason. At least that has been my experience. 


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#14 Augustus

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 08:33 AM

Wow ... I appreciate all the feedback, especially regarding what to expect from UPS. I'll contact the seller, who has gone "silent" on me, regarding filling a UPS claim - maybe mine can be transferred to him. It seems odd to me though that the seller files the claim, as I am the one who paid out the money and it is I that possess the package and contents related to the claim. If he gets the money, he is doubly paid and I am left to hope that I get reimbursed.

Here is a photo I took this morning showing the trifecta of issues - glass inside the tube near the corrector, the secondary mirror sitting halfway up the tube, and the primary mirror having small chips in the mirror's edge can be seen at the bottom and to the left.

I'll also pursue the PayPal claim option.

Regarding reattaching the secondary - is its orientation critical, i.e., are there alignment marks for positioning it or can I just reattach it? Also, something that puzzles me is, if I reattach it say with a silicone adhesive, etc., how is it that the collimation screws work? Are they pressing against the back of whatever the secondary attaches to and that holder pivots around a center point, based on the pressure from the 3 screws?

Thanks again
Roger


Secondary sits on a support that the screws push on. Orientation is irrelevant
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#15 Littlegreenman

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 09:33 AM

If you paid via Paypal using a credit card you can file claims with both.

By the way, if you win a Paypal claim Paypal will likely be able to "take back" the money from the seller. If that makes a difference.

Take pics of the packing. That is very important.


Edited by Littlegreenman, 20 March 2020 - 09:34 AM.

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#16 oldmanastro

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 10:07 AM

Wow ... I appreciate all the feedback, especially regarding what to expect from UPS. I'll contact the seller, who has gone "silent" on me, regarding filling a UPS claim - maybe mine can be transferred to him. It seems odd to me though that the seller files the claim, as I am the one who paid out the money and it is I that possess the package and contents related to the claim. If he gets the money, he is doubly paid and I am left to hope that I get reimbursed.

 

Here is a photo I took this morning showing the trifecta of issues - glass inside the tube near the corrector, the secondary mirror sitting halfway up the tube, and the primary mirror having small chips in the mirror's edge can be seen at the bottom and to the left.

 

I'll also pursue the PayPal claim option.

 

Regarding reattaching the secondary - is its orientation critical, i.e., are there alignment marks for positioning it or can I just reattach it? Also, something that puzzles me is, if I reattach it say with a silicone adhesive, etc., how is it that the collimation screws work? Are they pressing against the back of whatever the secondary attaches to and that holder pivots around a center point, based on the pressure from the 3 screws?

 

Thanks again

Roger

After all claims are settled and if you keep the telescope, reattaching the secondary in its correct orientation with the corrector plate and collimating should return the telescope to full operation if there is no damage to the focusing system. I think that the secondary is the culprit behind those chips in the primary edge. They should not have any effect on the optical performance. Your secondary holder has Bob's knobs which makes collimation easier. They are attached to the secondary base. There are many threads on how to collimate an SCT on CN that will explain the procedure. It is not difficult and will only involve moving those three knobs in the secondary holder while looking at a defocused star image.

 

If I remember well UPS requires specific packing material thickness around the item being shipped. This is a horrible experience to have to go through and I hope that you are fully refunded. 


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#17 unitron_man

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 01:33 PM

The secondary is glued to an aluminum disk that has 3 threaded holes to accept the alignment screws.

 

Perhaps this glue joint failed?  Do the adjustment screws seem to get tight when turning clockwise?  This would indicate the aluminum disk is still there.

 

Orientation matters.  There is a line on the back of the aluminum disk.  It should point away from the focus knob.

 

You will have to look for patterns in the failed glue joint to re-orient the secondary.

 

Also note there is a number written on the secondary which is in the direction of the line on the aluminum disk.

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Edited by unitron_man, 20 March 2020 - 01:36 PM.

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#18 Brollen

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 01:40 PM

The secondary is glued to an aluminum disk that has 3 threaded holes to accept the alignment screws.

 

Perhaps this glue joint failed?  Do the adjustment screws seem to get tight when turning clockwise?  This would indicate the aluminum disk is still there.

 

Orientation matters.  There is a line on the back of the aluminum disk.  It should point away from the focus knob.

 

You will have to look for patterns in the failed glue joint to re-orient the secondary.

Great information, thank you. 

 

I've heard from the seller and he has started a claim on his side - so this is good news. He seems like a good guy so I want to give him the benefit of any doubt.


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#19 aa6ww

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 02:12 PM

You should file a claim with Paypal and UPS and start getting something in motion. The longer you wait, the worse off you will be. If the seller has gone silent we should know who this is so we can all avoid them.

 

 

 

...Ralph


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#20 G-Tower

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 03:20 PM

By the looks of the damage you'd be better off working something out with the seller. I doubt UPS will refund anything in this case. Good luck thoug



#21 Brollen

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 03:55 PM

By the looks of the damage you'd be better off working something out with the seller. I doubt UPS will refund anything in this case. Good luck thoug

I'm hoping the damage looks worse than what it really is. Won't know until I get into the tube - once the claims process is over.

 

Its funny, I'm feeling more-so attached to this OTA rather than repulsed by it or wanting to get rid of it. Maybe it is the challenge of doing something new and different, especially during these strange times when I'm really house bound. I guess that feeling could change, if given the chance to fix it, it turns out to be a dumpster fire...


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#22 G-Tower

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 05:53 PM

I had a C8 that was perfectly packed and the secondary came loose and spent the trip smacking the primary. May scratches and minor chips. I was surprised how good the views were after I assembeled it.


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#23 CHASLX200

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 06:24 PM

2ndary's can come loose like a moose for no reason it seems. One nite i was looking up with a 10" F/9.6 Newt and heard something banging it's way down the metal tube and crash on the main mirror.  That was a long trip down that tube.


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#24 starman876

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 06:27 PM

I had a C8 that was perfectly packed and the secondary came loose and spent the trip smacking the primary. May scratches and minor chips. I was surprised how good the views were after I assembeled it.

Lucky for me I have only repaired other people's SCT's that got damaged in shipping.  Never had one of my own get damaged in shipping.


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#25 CHASLX200

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 06:28 PM

Maybe you can find another 2ndary if that one is broken.


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