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Classic orange tube C8 - arrived in a bad way

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#26 G-Tower

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 06:51 PM

In C8's I've seen glued secondaries and double sided tape secondaries. Your secondary base shows insufficient glue marks


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#27 Brollen

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 07:32 PM

2ndary's can come loose like a moose for no reason it seems. One nite i was looking up with a 10" F/9.6 Newt and heard something banging it's way down the metal tube and crash on the main mirror.  That was a long trip down that tube.

Ouch! Thinking of that hurts.



#28 Brollen

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 07:35 PM

Maybe you can find another 2ndary if that one is broken.

Aren’t they a matching pair with primary or is that the corrector?



#29 Bill Griffith

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 07:40 PM

Brollen,

Sorry for your unfortunate experience.
I had a similar experience (too similar).

A C-8 was shipped to me UPS with the same insult to the OTA. Very poor packaging from someone pretty famous in the Celestron circle. (No I will never get over it!!)

I filed a claim with UPS. UPS interestingly sends the package back to the point of origin to be evaluated. Upon inspection a determination is made. (Makes no sense)

Important point is that the person who shipped the instrument. They are the person who may have made the initial payment to UPS to have it shipped they are the client.

If the contents are deemed damaged and a decision made that instrument will likely be back at the point of origin of shipment,

Payment is made by UPS of the insured value. The telescope is now their property. UPS is not in the market for telescopes so they will salvage sell it. I had to outbid the sender (previous owner) for the OTA. Crazy!!

I wasn't going to give that satisfaction away.

This happened many years ago so maybe the process has changed.

This situation eliminated ever buying any large item sight unseen that needed shipped!

OK off the soap box now!

Good Luck

Bill

Edited by Bill Griffith, 20 March 2020 - 07:53 PM.

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#30 starman876

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 07:41 PM

Getting just another secondary will not work as easily as one thinks.   All the corrections for the optics are made on the secondary.   If you do find another one you will need to have it refigured to match the optics of the SCT.


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#31 Brollen

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 07:55 PM

Brollen,

Sorry for your unfortunate experience.
I had a similar experience (too similar).

A C-8 was shipped to me UPS with the same insult to the OTA. Very poor packaging from someone pretty famous in the Celestron circle. (No I will never get over it!!)

I filed a claim with UPS. UPS interestingly sends the package back to the point of origin to be evaluated. Upon inspection the determination is made. (Makes no sense)

Important point is that the person who shipped the instrument. They are the person who may have made the initial payment to UPS to have it shipped they are the client.

If the contents are deemed damaged and a decision made that instrument will likely be back at the point of origin of shipment,
Payment is made by UPS guess what they have paid the insured value. The telescope is now their property. UPS is not in the market for telescopes so they will salvage sell it.

This happened many years ago so maybe the process has changed.

This situation eliminated ever buying any large item sight unseen that needed shipped!

OK off the soap box now!

Good Luck

Bill

Interesting read... I hope they have changed that procedure of sending it back.

 

That is odd to me - the package is with me and I am the owner of the damaged items. Hopefully I’ll find out soon.

 

To those that went through a claims process with UPS, how long did it take for UPS to arrive at a decision and then payout if they did decide in your favor?



#32 Augustus

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 08:08 PM

OP, if you are not comfortable with re-installing the secondary yourself I'd be happy to do it, I've reinstalled 3 C8 secondaries before (including the one in my '72 unit). 


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#33 Brollen

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 09:07 PM

OP, if you are not comfortable with re-installing the secondary yourself I'd be happy to do it, I've reinstalled 3 C8 secondaries before (including the one in my '72 unit). 

Thanks for the offer - I'm fairly certain I can pull this off but I'll keep it mind. Right now I have to get final resolution before I open things up - this wait is killing me.



#34 Brollen

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 09:14 PM

The secondary is glued to an aluminum disk that has 3 threaded holes to accept the alignment screws.

 

Perhaps this glue joint failed?  Do the adjustment screws seem to get tight when turning clockwise?  This would indicate the aluminum disk is still there.

 

Orientation matters.  There is a line on the back of the aluminum disk.  It should point away from the focus knob.

 

You will have to look for patterns in the failed glue joint to re-orient the secondary.

 

Also note there is a number written on the secondary which is in the direction of the line on the aluminum disk.

I've been looking at this picture and thinking - it finally struck me. The back of this secondary has a center hole, which appears unthreaded, and three threaded holes for the collimation screws. I would think this secondary is not glued or fixed to some cell, correct? In this case it looks like the screws directly pull or push the secondary itself, which pivots on the center support?

 

Whereas my secondary is glued into a cell or retaining holder and the collimating screws press against the back of that cell. Is this correct? 


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#35 Old Man

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 09:18 PM

Don't forget, if you used PayPal or a credit card do not put off filing claims with them or you just might be the one left out in the cold.


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#36 Brollen

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 09:20 PM

Don't forget, if you used PayPal or a credit card do not put off filing claims with them or you just might be the one left out in the cold.

Yes thank you, I'm trying to work with the seller on the resolution. The seller is promising restitution.



#37 Brollen

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 09:35 PM

I found this old thread on reattaching an SCT secondary, but it only confuses me: https://www.cloudyni...condary-mirror/

 

The use of spacers and the issues around centering, etc., are confusing. I would think the secondary is a perfect if not snug fit in the housing and the key thing is its alignment as dictated by any markings, etc.



#38 orion61

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 03:13 AM

I can help, ask anyone here I know those old girls inside and out, my help is free and only a phone call away. I serviced these scopes for years, don't re-glue anything until you talk to me, those parts need to be in precise alignment. OK? I will send my phone number in a private message, Again ask the knowledge base of regulars here, if it is Orange and grey I can fix it and you cannot beat my prices, free, why free? it is because I love these old tubes, and while we have it opened we might as well service it.. You sound like a very competent person so let's get the old girl dolled up and working up to her abilities, you will need some flat black paint and a fine tipped brush, that is about it, along with some silicone adhesive... BY the way, my offer is good for anyone here in need of a friend for your old C8 or Meade 2080, 2120 10" lx5 lx6 or Classic LX200;s B&L or Criterion DX6 or 8" My fee is ZERO for the love of these scopes and their owners OK? Is this ok Moderators? I offer my services completely free of charge, no catches or hidden fees, I love this hobby and the wonderful eyes behind the eyepieces. 


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#39 dave brock

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 06:19 AM

I've been looking at this picture and thinking - it finally struck me. The back of this secondary has a center hole, which appears unthreaded, and three threaded holes for the collimation screws. I would think this secondary is not glued or fixed to some cell, correct? In this case it looks like the screws directly pull or push the secondary itself, which pivots on the center support?

Whereas my secondary is glued into a cell or retaining holder and the collimating screws press against the back of that cell. Is this correct?

In the picture the secondary is face down and the backing plate is glued to it. The backing plate is what has the holes and is used to collimate and becomes part of the cell. Your backing plate is still in the cell on the corrector.

Edited by dave brock, 21 March 2020 - 06:23 AM.


#40 G-Tower

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 07:28 AM

I can help, ask anyone here I know those old girls inside and out, my help is free and only a phone call away. I serviced these scopes for years, don't re-glue anything until you talk to me, those parts need to be in precise alignment. OK? I will send my phone number in a private message, Again ask the knowledge base of regulars here, if it is Orange and grey I can fix it and you cannot beat my prices, free, why free? it is because I love these old tubes, and while we have it opened we might as well service it.. You sound like a very competent person so let's get the old girl dolled up and working up to her abilities, you will need some flat black paint and a fine tipped brush, that is about it, along with some silicone adhesive... BY the way, my offer is good for anyone here in need of a friend for your old C8 or Meade 2080, 2120 10" lx5 lx6 or Classic LX200;s B&L or Criterion DX6 or 8" My fee is ZERO for the love of these scopes and their owners OK? Is this ok Moderators? I offer my services completely free of charge, no catches or hidden fees, I love this hobby and the wonderful eyes behind the eyepieces. 

The scope can be further damaged in shipping.....shocked.gif 



#41 CHASLX200

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 07:29 AM

Aren’t they a matching pair with primary or is that the corrector?

Not sure. I think another would work.



#42 Brollen

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 08:04 AM

Sorry to hear about your experience.  Several years ago I shipped an 8" f/5 Newtonian using UPS.  It was double boxed with foam padding between the boxes and around the OTA.  The box looked like it was poked by the fork of a forklift.  Both boxes were punctured and the tube and mirror cell were damaged. 

 

The buyer contacted me.  I suggested that he take lots of pictures and file a claim.  UPS, to their credit, settled the claim for the full amount (scope + shipping) within 48 hours and let the buyer (claim filer) keep the pieces.

 

Good luck,

Dave

Awesome - I’m hoping for the same outcome!



#43 Brollen

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 08:06 AM

In the picture the secondary is face down and the backing plate is glued to it. The backing plate is what has the holes and is used to collimate and becomes part of the cell. Your backing plate is still in the cell on the corrector.

Ok that makes sense.



#44 Brollen

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 08:11 AM

I can help, ask anyone here I know those old girls inside and out, my help is free and only a phone call away. I serviced these scopes for years, don't re-glue anything until you talk to me, those parts need to be in precise alignment. OK? I will send my phone number in a private message, Again ask the knowledge base of regulars here, if it is Orange and grey I can fix it and you cannot beat my prices, free, why free? it is because I love these old tubes, and while we have it opened we might as well service it.. You sound like a very competent person so let's get the old girl dolled up and working up to her abilities, you will need some flat black paint and a fine tipped brush, that is about it, along with some silicone adhesive... BY the way, my offer is good for anyone here in need of a friend for your old C8 or Meade 2080, 2120 10" lx5 lx6 or Classic LX200;s B&L or Criterion DX6 or 8" My fee is ZERO for the love of these scopes and their owners OK? Is this ok Moderators? I offer my services completely free of charge, no catches or hidden fees, I love this hobby and the wonderful eyes behind the eyepieces. 

Thanks orion61 - I appreciate the offer! This C8, and likely all, has a special aura to it that none of my prior and much newer C8s seemed to have. I would like to get it back in working order.

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#45 grif 678

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 09:19 AM

I have found out in my cases that USPS handles packages much more carefully that UPS.


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#46 DAVIDG

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 09:22 AM

  I got 40 years now of making and designing optics of all types including Schmidts. I think know why your secondary mirror came off  the mounting plate. Your scope has aftermarket collimation knobs on the secondary cell, These are most likely "Bob's Knobs"  The cell works by pivoting on the center bolt and the three outer bolts at 120° center allow it to be tilted by loosening  one and tightening another. The threaded holes  go all the way thru the metal plate.The original screws were of a length that they could not go all the way through the metal plate and touch the glass. The aftermarket ones are most likely longer. The center pivot needs to be adjusted so with the new screws in place you can not thread them in enough so they can go all the way through the metal plate and push on the glass. So my guess in that this was done and the owner tighten them down either to try the secure the secondary for shipping or when he first installed them tighten them too much.  One of them came all the way through, and was pushing on the glass and  that pressure caused the glue joint to fail. 

   So my advice is before you glue the secondary back in place, check the length  of the bolts to be sure they are not too long, or you may have the same problem again.

 

                      - Dave 


Edited by DAVIDG, 21 March 2020 - 09:30 AM.

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#47 starman876

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 10:13 AM

Aren’t they a matching pair with primary or is that the corrector?

The secondary is figured to correct for the errors in the primary and corrector.   You will need to have the new secondary refigured to match the primary and corrector.   If you do not the scope will not perform very well.  


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#48 CHASLX200

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 10:40 AM

  I got 40 years now of making and designing optics of all types including Schmidts. I think know why your secondary mirror came off  the mounting plate. Your scope has aftermarket collimation knobs on the secondary cell, These are most likely "Bob's Knobs"  The cell works by pivoting on the center bolt and the three outer bolts at 120° center allow it to be tilted by loosening  one and tightening another. The threaded holes  go all the way thru the metal plate.The original screws were of a length that they could not go all the way through the metal plate and touch the glass. The aftermarket ones are most likely longer. The center pivot needs to be adjusted so with the new screws in place you can not thread them in enough so they can go all the way through the metal plate and push on the glass. So my guess in that this was done and the owner tighten them down either to try the secure the secondary for shipping or when he first installed them tighten them too much.  One of them came all the way through, and was pushing on the glass and  that pressure caused the glue joint to fail. 

   So my advice is before you glue the secondary back in place, check the length  of the bolts to be sure they are not too long, or you may have the same problem again.

 

                      - Dave 

I have heard of that same thing before.
 



#49 Brollen

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 10:50 AM

  I got 40 years now of making and designing optics of all types including Schmidts. I think know why your secondary mirror came off  the mounting plate. Your scope has aftermarket collimation knobs on the secondary cell, These are most likely "Bob's Knobs"  The cell works by pivoting on the center bolt and the three outer bolts at 120° center allow it to be tilted by loosening  one and tightening another. The threaded holes  go all the way thru the metal plate.The original screws were of a length that they could not go all the way through the metal plate and touch the glass. The aftermarket ones are most likely longer. The center pivot needs to be adjusted so with the new screws in place you can not thread them in enough so they can go all the way through the metal plate and push on the glass. So my guess in that this was done and the owner tighten them down either to try the secure the secondary for shipping or when he first installed them tighten them too much.  One of them came all the way through, and was pushing on the glass and  that pressure caused the glue joint to fail. 

   So my advice is before you glue the secondary back in place, check the length  of the bolts to be sure they are not too long, or you may have the same problem again.

 

                      - Dave 

Dave - thanks for that insight. The scope did come with Bob's Knobs - a controversial product on this site from some of the threads I have seen. I'd be surprised if the replacement knob-screws didn't match the length of the originals, but I suppose that is possible. Looking at the secondary sitting in my tube, it appears to be just the mirror without the backing plate. That would lead me to believe that the glue/adhesive holding the mirror to the plate simply gave way as a result of the blunt force and jolt the box received on the VB end - which totally obliterated the diagonal and ruined the VB as well.


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#50 tim53

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 10:51 AM

With Tinky (https://www.cloudyni...l= tinky tim53), I had the opposite problem with UPS.  The seller packed the fully-assembled scope, with tabletop stand, in a single thin-walled cardboard box and filled the space around the scope with styrofoam peanuts.  It was taped reasonably well, but still was more of a cardboard "bag" than a box when it arrived.  I heard the UPS truck coming up the hill, so I was out at the end of the driveway to meet him when he stopped.  He actually warned me of the packing, and waited while I opened the box in front of him before driving away.  Amazingly, there was no damage.

 

[edit:  It's been a long time since this shipped, and I had forgotten about the foam-filled bags that were in the box around the scope.  So it wasn't as bad as I thought I had remembered it.  

 

In other news, if you really want to know how best to pack a scope for shipping, buy something from Chip sometime.  I bought his 8" Schmidt camera a while back.  It was by far and away the best packed item I've ever seen.  Ever!]

-Tim.


Edited by tim53, 21 March 2020 - 10:54 AM.

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