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Starbase Orthos First Light

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#1 BillP

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 09:53 PM

I just acquired the 20mm, 14mm, 9mm, and 8mm Starbase Orthos, some of which are included with the relatively new Takahashi 80mm Achromat that is meant for beginners.  Note that the 20mm Starbase comes in both the Plossl-type two doublet configuration labeled as "Orthoscopic" and also in a three element Kellner configuration.  I decided to get them because I wanted an inexpensive classic eyepiece with a good build that was single coated as I like single coats for double star observing and it is getting hard to find many of the old classics that were only single coated. 

 

Their build is very nice, although I would have liked no undercut on the barrels.  I did not disassemble any but viewing the elements through the eyepiece it is apparent that it is indeed an asymmetrical doublet Plossl-type.  So not the standard Symmetricals we see today marketed as Plossls.  The spacer between the doublets looked rather large so the doublets appear to be spaced widely.

 

While examining the inside wall of the eyepiece I noticed that the lens edges do not appear to be blackened, and both the spacer between the doublets and the retaining tube that has the field stop in it are smooth gloss black.  I was not so concerned about the spacer but that retaining tube that has the field stop at the end can be problematic on bright targets but had to wait for a field test before jumping to conclusions.

 

Tonight it was luckily clear out and the Moon high near the zenith so I took out my f/8 TSA-102 to test these eyepieces.  Takahashi mates these eyepieces with their new beginner Achromat which is f/10, so while I was not expecting perfect off-axis performance I was expecting respectable for these 45 degree AFOV Plossls labeled as "Orthoscopic" (not an ABBE design).

 

Here's what I saw through these using the Moon, Sirius, Rigel, and M42 as test subjects:

 

20mm -- On the Moon the central 75-80% of the AFOV showed sharp lunar features.  The Lunar features in the last 20-25% were blurry and could not be refocused to sharp.  Overall the contrast and crispness of the Lunar features in the central 75% was quite outstanding.  When moving to Sirius the issue with the last 20-25% was astigmatism.  As far as astigmatism goes, it was not all that bad so the star points, while deformed, were only slightly so in my f/8 TSA.  Not great, but not annoyingly bad either.  As I suspected, those smooth black walls also took their toll when a bright star was very near the field stop as you could see reflections of them in the black space outside the field stop.  Similarly for the Moon when it's bright surface was at the field stop if you moved your gaze to observe the black region outside the field stop it showed the bright Moon reflected.  With proper eye position it was not an issue so only when my eye was to a side a little to better catch the region outside the field stop.  Using a Tele Vue 2x Barlow cleaned up the off-axis performance almost to the very edge.  Eye relief was comfortable.

 

14mm --  Not parfocal with the 20mm but very close.  Similar to the 20mm, the central 75-80% of the 14mm was sharp and showed high perceived contrast.  The amount of astigmatism present in the outer 20-25% was still there, but less pronounced than the 20mm.  This one did NOT show any reflections outside the field stop though.  Using a Tele Vue 2x Barlow cleaned up the off-axis performance to the very edge.  Eye relief was comfortable.

 

9mm -- Not parfocal with the 14mm or 20mm and very far off from those.  Slight astigmatism was still present in the last 15-20% of the AFOV but more very mild compared to the 14mm.  The central 80% of the 9mm was sharp and showed high perceived contrast.  Like the 20mm, if stars or the Moon were at the field stop then you could see their reflection outside the field stop on that smooth black retaining tube wall if you looked for it.  This eyepiece also showed a small dim circular green hued ghost in the center of the AFOV if the limb of the Moon was in the FOV but not near the center, or a bright star like Sirius (no Rigel).  The spacing between the doublets for the 9mm must be such that the single coatings are not sufficient for backscatter between the doublets is what I conjecture is probably the culprit.  It was very noticeable with the Moon and Sirius, but not there with dimmer stars.  Using a Tele Vue 2x Barlow cleaned up the off-axis performance to the very edge.  Eye relief was tight but not overly difficult.

 

6mm -- Not parfocal with the 20mm, 14mm or 9mm and very far off from those.  This eyepiece showed a crisp high perceived contrast view and it did NOT show any reflections outside the field stop though.  Optically the best performer of the bunch having no issues in the off-axis and not light artifacts of any kind.  Eye relief however was the tightest and while not difficult, not comfortable but expected.  It was not what I personally consider overly difficult or uncomfortable.  I felt it was just a little easier than the 5mm XO in comparison.  Barlowed very well with the Tele Vue 2x.

 

Summary

 

Overall a well build and handsome set of eyepieces.  The 20-14-9-6mm of the series is a nice set of focal lengths as they are all close to a 1.5x jump in magnification from each other.  They were designed for an f/10 Achromat that Takahashi markets so while their performance in my f/8 scope was acceptable, I would expect their off-axis to be a bigger issue in faster focal ratios.  The smooth black reflective walls of the internal spacer and field lens retaining tube with field stop showed light artifacts in my test with the 4" TSA Apo, as well as a central ghost with the 9mm.  While these issues were not show stoppers for me with my 4" aperture scope since my primary goal for them is for general double star observing instead of bright objects like the Moon,  I would expect these light artifact issues might be more annoying as the main objective of the telescope gets much larger than 4".  Finally, given that the lenses are also just single coated, there was also a tendency for eyeball glint to occur infrequently (i.e., a bright star point reflects off your eye and back onto the surface of the eye lens causing a rapid moving transient point of light in the FOV).


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#2 sunnyday

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 09:58 PM

(quote ) I would have liked no undercut. 

What is it exactly ?

can you show me on a photo?
excuse my ignorance. 
thank you



#3 BillP

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 10:19 PM

It is the indented area on the chrome barrel shown in second eyepiece from left.  A useless safety feature to help stop eyepiece from falling out of focuser when an inexperienced (or bungling) user improperly operates their equipment and forgets to tighten the set screw or compression ring to secure the eyepiece.  Mostly what it does is make the eyepiece difficult to insert or remove.

 

https://stargazerslo...d04b296154.jpeg


Edited by BillP, 02 April 2020 - 10:21 PM.

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#4 sunnyday

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 10:35 PM

thank you very much for taking the time to answer me, very much appreciated.


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#5 greenstars3

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 10:53 PM

Bill

 

Thanks for the review, the Taks I will be looking at will be the TAO's, but I was thinking of these. The TAO's are on sale now.

 

Robert 



#6 SandyHouTex

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Posted 03 April 2020 - 11:05 AM

Thanks for the review BillP.  I’ve been mostly using the 9mm on the Starbase 80.  It gives me around 100X, which is very comfortable for me when I’m looking at various objects.  I think they’re really good eyepieces, and excellent when you consider the value.


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#7 Starman1

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Posted 03 April 2020 - 01:00 PM

As I read the review, performance is commensurate with the price.

I'm not sure the world needed more cheap eyepieces.


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#8 MartinPond

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Posted 03 April 2020 - 02:44 PM

I think running the 20mm with a quality Barlow might clean up the edges quite nicely,

   even starting at F/8.

 

Still, I have seen some moderately-priced Plossls and Orthos with crisp edges working with F/8.

Something's not right...


Edited by MartinPond, 03 April 2020 - 02:46 PM.

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#9 SandyHouTex

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Posted 03 April 2020 - 05:02 PM

I think running the 20mm with a quality Barlow might clean up the edges quite nicely,

   even starting at F/8.

 

Still, I have seen some moderately-priced Plossls and Orthos with crisp edges working with F/8.

Something's not right...

Which moderately priced Plossls and Orthos have you seen that are crisp to the edges?



#10 BillP

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Posted 03 April 2020 - 10:03 PM

As I read the review, performance is commensurate with the price.

I'm not sure the world needed more cheap eyepieces.

I hear you.  But you know, there is just something different about any eyepiece that makes it unique, and sometimes lovable.  Yes, their performance is not perfect, but just something about them that I like.  And with a TV 2x almost everything about them is cleaned up.  So tonight was out with the f/7.7 Vixen 81S and using them all with the TV Barlow since observing the Moon so didn't want very long focal lengths.  And they all performed just fantastic.  Even the 6mm Barlowed to 3mm in the Vixen (that's 208x for the 81mm or 0.4mm exit pupil) shows extremely crisp and defined view.  So something endearing about them for me.  Maybe it is the very small form factor and nicely contrasted view?  I don't know.  But being an observer who really does not give a hoot about what is going on in the outer 25% as long as it does not grossly deform star points (which these do not), then I am perfectly satisfied.  As I like to say, I'm not an FSO (field stop observer) lol.gif

 

Yes, not the quintessential superbly controlled sharp to the edge, massively sized, and massively priced eyepiece for the connoisseur in the quest for that experience of optical nirvana in every scope down to f/2.  But unlike those monsters these are instead, endearing, small, cute, nice heft, good build, really nice contrasty views, satisfying for me performance un-Barlowed, really good performance un-Barlowed in the central 75, and superb overall Barlowed, down-to-earth simple, and I can carry all 4 out to the scope in the palm of one hand!  Had a blast with them tonight!  So anyway, I sure am glad they produced them! smile.gif


Edited by BillP, 03 April 2020 - 10:10 PM.

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#11 BillP

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Posted 03 April 2020 - 10:08 PM

UPDATE

 

Made an error in my original write up.  The Barlowed behavior of the 20 and 14 I had reversed in the write up.  It should have been this:

 

20mm -- Using a Tele Vue 2x Barlow cleaned up the off-axis performance to the very edge.

 

14mm --  Using a Tele Vue 2x Barlow cleaned up the off-axis performance almost to the very edge.

 

Basically all except the 14mm were sharp to the field stop with the TV 2x.  And the region not sharp in the 14mm Barlowed was maybe the outer 10-15%.


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#12 MartinPond

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 01:45 AM

Which moderately priced Plossls and Orthos have you seen that are crisp to the edges?

 Note that I claim the use of 'quiet' multipliers on mid to long FLs....

 

On the commercial front----------

 

The convex-outer-surface version of the Meade 4000, 26mm  looks like 85%@F5, but 100%@F10

It's stripped to 'mesa' configuration so I can use it with glasses.

 

The Astro-Tech High Grade Plossl, 17mm  (this is on-symmetric, with a negative face looking at

   the objective)  looks like ~95%@F5 , 100%@F8 and up.

It's a real 'sleeper'..

 

 The Orion 17mm Explorer-II is an assymetric Plossl (like a Clave):

  I see 95%@F5 , and 100% with a Burgess 1.9x OCA screwed directly on,

   which actually only pushes it to 14mm fl.

 

The  Kokusai Kohki 25mm Abbe seems to go all the way with the OCA for 1.3x,

   or quiet 2X and 3X...    I moved it  on due to the 43 degrees.

 

B&L 10mm "Ortho".....45-deg   100% F5  ...

 

 

 

-----From the 'pillaged oculars' (actually these are thick kellner oculars):

 

23mm / 50 deg / 100% crisp at F5 , from a pair of premium Jasons

   (wish I took down the model #)

 

2,1 30mm  53 deg  95%@F5  100%w/burgess for 1.3x..(and all 2x and 3x)

   from Tasco #440 "Bright View"..

 

  

-----Custom-made:

 

2,2,2  all-weak , 48 degrees , 100%@f4,  F5, and beyond.

 

1.2 (Konig-1 , extra-thick)  27mm, field trimmed to 54-deg

    85%@F5,  100%@F10


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#13 MartinPond

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 01:50 AM

UPDATE

 

Made an error in my original write up.  The Barlowed behavior of the 20 and 14 I had reversed in the write up.  It should have been this:

 

20mm -- Using a Tele Vue 2x Barlow cleaned up the off-axis performance to the very edge.

 

14mm --  Using a Tele Vue 2x Barlow cleaned up the off-axis performance almost to the very edge.

 

Basically all except the 14mm were sharp to the field stop with the TV 2x.  And the region not sharp in the 14mm Barlowed was maybe the outer 10-15%.

That makes sense...for most 2X ...

The extra goodness of the TV being low scattering.



#14 SandyHouTex

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 08:58 AM

I hear you.  But you know, there is just something different about any eyepiece that makes it unique, and sometimes lovable.  Yes, their performance is not perfect, but just something about them that I like.  And with a TV 2x almost everything about them is cleaned up.  So tonight was out with the f/7.7 Vixen 81S and using them all with the TV Barlow since observing the Moon so didn't want very long focal lengths.  And they all performed just fantastic.  Even the 6mm Barlowed to 3mm in the Vixen (that's 208x for the 81mm or 0.4mm exit pupil) shows extremely crisp and defined view.  So something endearing about them for me.  Maybe it is the very small form factor and nicely contrasted view?  I don't know.  But being an observer who really does not give a hoot about what is going on in the outer 25% as long as it does not grossly deform star points (which these do not), then I am perfectly satisfied.  As I like to say, I'm not an FSO (field stop observer) lol.gif

 

Yes, not the quintessential superbly controlled sharp to the edge, massively sized, and massively priced eyepiece for the connoisseur in the quest for that experience of optical nirvana in every scope down to f/2.  But unlike those monsters these are instead, endearing, small, cute, nice heft, good build, really nice contrasty views, satisfying for me performance un-Barlowed, really good performance un-Barlowed in the central 75, and superb overall Barlowed, down-to-earth simple, and I can carry all 4 out to the scope in the palm of one hand!  Had a blast with them tonight!  So anyway, I sure am glad they produced them! smile.gif

Well said BillP.  Not to mention, they’re made in Japan as well. waytogo.gif


Edited by SandyHouTex, 04 April 2020 - 09:01 AM.


#15 lylver

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 09:42 AM

/.../

 

They were designed for an f/10 Achromat that Takahashi markets so while their performance in my f/8 scope was acceptable.

This is an old design that existed before 1980, Vixen use the same design when sold them in 24.5mm except for the 4mm.

They are abbe duplet, f/10 minimum for 40° correct AFOV.

We talked about that 7month ago.

https://www.cloudyni...ssls/?p=9693083


 



#16 BillP

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 10:52 AM

This is an old design that existed before 1980, Vixen use the same design when sold them in 24.5mm except for the 4mm.

They are abbe duplet, f/10 minimum for 40° correct AFOV.

We talked about that 7month ago.

https://www.cloudyni...ssls/?p=9693083

 

Unfortunately, none of those designs reflect the Starbase.  I took the 20mm apart today.  SURPRISE SURPRISE -- It is NOT an Asymmetrical doublet as it appeared to me when gazing thru the lens stack of the assembled eyepiece.  Instead it is another Symmetrical variant, so the diagrams on that Japanese store showing an asymmetrical doubles as what they call a "PL-Type" Orthoscopic is not what these are!  The spacing between the elements is quite wide, and both external surfaces of each doublet are convex-convex, so not convex-plano as is most typical, and convex-concave as is typical for TV and a few others.  The eye lens and field lens surfaces are very mildly convex.  Hard to tell when looking at them but when you place them face down on a flat surface the doublet rocks a little so not plano.  FWIW, the TAL Plossls are also convex-convex, but the outward facing convex surfaces are more strongly convex than these.

 

20mm Lenses.jpg


Edited by BillP, 04 April 2020 - 10:58 AM.

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#17 Starman1

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 11:28 AM

Unfortunately, none of those designs reflect the Starbase.  I took the 20mm apart today.  SURPRISE SURPRISE -- It is NOT an Asymmetrical doublet as it appeared to me when gazing thru the lens stack of the assembled eyepiece.  Instead it is another Symmetrical variant, so the diagrams on that Japanese store showing an asymmetrical doubles as what they call a "PL-Type" Orthoscopic is not what these are!  The spacing between the elements is quite wide, and both external surfaces of each doublet are convex-convex, so not convex-plano as is most typical, and convex-concave as is typical for TV and a few others.  The eye lens and field lens surfaces are very mildly convex.  Hard to tell when looking at them but when you place them face down on a flat surface the doublet rocks a little so not plano.  FWIW, the TAL Plossls are also convex-convex, but the outward facing convex surfaces are more strongly convex than these.

 

attachicon.gif20mm Lenses.jpg

I presume you blackened the lens edges, barrel (filter threads. bottom barrel edge, top of the upper barrel near the eye) and spacers/retaining rings before reassembling?


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#18 BillP

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 02:25 PM

No I did not.  While reflections can be seen on those shiny surfaces, it is only when you move your eye to the side to try and look past the field stop.  If you observe normally then you never see them.  I might try all that on the 9mm to see if it alleviates that dim ghost but doubt it will.  I have a little suction tube to pull elements out and Plossls are easiest of all so not an issue taking in and out.  Right now all my observing with them has been on nights with Moon and they are performing, contrast and brightness wise, as good as anything else under those conditions.  Will wait for some Moonless nights to see how they fare before I decide to make any improvements.  But for right now don't think the effort is justified as they perform plenty good as is.


Edited by BillP, 04 April 2020 - 02:27 PM.

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#19 desertlens

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 03:06 PM

Bill, Thanks for your efforts. Now I'm curious about whether or not the 9mm is the same design. I have the two Starbase Kellners and find them to be surprisingly good. I love my modern oculars but I'm still fascinated by these simple, vintage designs.


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#20 BillP

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 05:51 PM

Not easy to take the 9mm apart.  They use a dab of sealer to hold the retaining ring in place.  With the 20mm the retaining tube or sleeve screwed into the housing so was easy to put some acetone on the laquered spots to loosen it up.  With the 9mm the retaining ring instead screws over top pf the housing so the lacquer spot they put on is all the way at the bottom (towards top of eyepiece from underneath) and unreachable.  I do not have a rubber grip tool to try to force that sleeve to open and it will not open by hand.  So the 9mm will have to remain a mystery.  However, I doubt it is different because the primary consideration in manufacture is always cost, so likely a Symmetrical as well.


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#21 MartinPond

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 07:15 PM

So..just a common symmetrical.

The main difference is often the internal baffling/absorption.


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#22 SandyHouTex

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 08:48 PM

So..just a common symmetrical.

The main difference is often the internal baffling/absorption.

Not really.  Symmetricals have the doublets almost touching.  I was going to ask BillP what he thought they were.


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#23 MartinPond

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 08:52 PM

Not really.  Symmetricals have the doublets almost touching.  I was going to ask BillP what he thought they were.

The doublets on my Orion 17 and Meade 26   are fairly far off from touching.

Others are very close. This is not a universal thing.


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#24 BillP

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 10:14 PM

I would not call it a "common" symmetrical simply because it does not have the convex-plano design for the doublets that I see in the every day symmetricals.  So appears the prescription is a little different from that standpoint, like TV, TAL, Sterling, others all differ slightly.  If the off-axis performs better at f/10 then probably designed with that in mind since marketed with an f/10 scope.  Will have to see just how "orthoscopic" the FOV is though.  Have not tested any of that yet.  All other Plossl-types I have had and tested are far from orthoscopic, typically with a good amount of RD in the off-axis (although a good number of modern ABBEs also show it as well).  In the end, IMHO, no single attribute of an eyepiece makes it uncommon.  Instead it is how all its attributes work together that makes it uncommon or not.  Gestalt.


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#25 MartinPond

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 11:57 PM

"Instead it is how all its attributes work together that makes it uncommon or not."

 

  That really does seem to be born out in the way many here notice there are excellent and

     not-so-great eyepieces within the same line. There are tweaks, and maybe also 

     manufacturing issues, esp. with small sizes.

 

Many   dimensions and shapes that were assumed in the textbook formulas

    vary.  I have a flat-faced Orion Plossl, but two 26mm Meade 4000s,

    one 'slightly concave faced' and the other 'slightly convex faced'

    The concave faces seem to correspond with the push to 53 degrees,

      but the veiling glare acts up.   The convex faces  seem to give glare resistance

      but adds a bit of SAEP..   I like the more clean, striking field though, so I

     put up with some of that. 

 

In making symmetricals, I have to deal with thicker doublets.

They can be  hard to space and have less ER, but many are 

60-65-degree 'late bloomers', one being 15mm/65degrees,

 60%@F5 , 85%@F10 , 100%%@F15...pretty neat if

  you want a 5mm and have a nice 3X multiplier.   

  Like any other wides, though, geometry of angles

    means nothing is really orthoscopic past 50-55 degrees.

    You can't have focally flat and geometrically flat then.

 

With more normal doublets,  you can get a tradeoff for

   field 'orthoscopic' qualities vs. field width.  Seems 45 degree

   is more than cutting off the field...the spacing is pushed.

 

It's interesting to see how much eye relief varies at the same FL...

brand to brand.. 

 

Tweaking the design off canon proportions is a lot easier when

  you have have  higher index and longer FL, so you can fiddle

  away some eye relief and still  have enough for glasses.

 

But for one reason or another, the observations seem to bear you out:

   the "attributes work together" great on some, and not so much in others.

    

I consider the "High Grade" Plossls to be not really Plossl:

  the long lower doublet and the steep concave end on that side

  make them more like a Plossl with a little Smyth...that's how they

  do better at F5 than others.


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