Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Monolux 4384 (75/1600 f/21.3) Unboxing

  • Please log in to reply
65 replies to this topic

#26 semlin

semlin

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,897
  • Joined: 20 Jul 2009

Posted 30 May 2022 - 11:24 AM

I've been restoring the wooden case from this scope lately. The top and bottom were totally shredded and falling apart so I had them professionally replaced and reinforced. Unfortunately, the original paper inventory and packing map wasn't salvageable from the original top on the case. So tonight I decided to make a near pixel perfect copy of the original using MS Word and MS Paint. It actually turned out pretty good! I'll just get some nice vintage looking paper to print it on and it should be as good as new to attach to the new top panel. If anyone needs this in PDF format shoot me a message!

 

very nice!

 

fyi, the double underlining under "list of contents" on the original is just the "=" sign repeated.

 

List of Contents

============



#27 jragsdale

jragsdale

    Soyuz

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 3,584
  • Joined: 07 Dec 2015
  • Loc: Idaho

Posted 30 May 2022 - 11:36 AM

very nice!

 

fyi, the double underlining under "list of contents" on the original is just the "=" sign repeated.

 

List of Contents

============

Thanks! I'll try that. Couldn't get the double underline to work on an empty line. 


  • semlin likes this

#28 semlin

semlin

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,897
  • Joined: 20 Jul 2009

Posted 30 May 2022 - 11:56 AM

Thanks! I'll try that. Couldn't get the double underline to work on an empty line. 

long ago, i used to have to send and receive price lists on a telex machine for a job.  the "=" was great for defining tables.  

 

people were artists on telex machines.  you had to pre-plan and compose your message before typing it in with no mistakes.  



#29 Kasmos

Kasmos

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,976
  • Joined: 19 Aug 2015
  • Loc: So Cal

Posted 30 May 2022 - 03:39 PM

Sorry, I'm old school so would have re-traced it by hand.

Also, when I went to elementary school our teachers used Ditto machines for tests and handouts.

Ah, the smell the fresh purple prints.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=ccYLLzpeVnU


  • Terra Nova, Piggyback, mikerepp and 2 others like this

#30 jragsdale

jragsdale

    Soyuz

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 3,584
  • Joined: 07 Dec 2015
  • Loc: Idaho

Posted 30 May 2022 - 05:07 PM

Sorry, I'm old school so would have re-traced it by hand.

The original was definitely hand drawn originally. I didn't think I could do it justice though. But I basically digitally traced it as I used the original as a template and tried to stay as true to the original as I could.


Edited by jragsdale, 30 May 2022 - 06:01 PM.

  • Kasmos likes this

#31 eric_zeiner

eric_zeiner

    Voyager 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 11,407
  • Joined: 09 Dec 2006
  • Loc: Perry, GA USA

Posted 01 June 2022 - 11:05 AM

You Sir have an amazing scope and the documentation of your restoration efforts is first rate.  I wish you many clear skies with it and I look forward to seeing the end results.



#32 jragsdale

jragsdale

    Soyuz

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 3,584
  • Joined: 07 Dec 2015
  • Loc: Idaho

Posted 01 June 2022 - 08:16 PM

You Sir have an amazing scope and the documentation of your restoration efforts is first rate.  I wish you many clear skies with it and I look forward to seeing the end results.

Thank you! I'm embarrassed how long this has set in the corner of the garage just sitting in a pile. While I've had the scope deployed and in rotation, the mount/case/accessories hadn't received much of a 2nd look. Just now starting to dip my toes back into this restoration and the juices and excitement are flowing once again. Currently working on the case. Extensive work sanding, fabricating wooden parts, cutting felt, replacing straps, reattaching about 20 individual parts that came loose, some restaining. Lots of work but it'll be back to good as new when it's done.


  • Terra Nova, Kasmos and DouglasPaul like this

#33 Kasmos

Kasmos

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,976
  • Joined: 19 Aug 2015
  • Loc: So Cal

Posted 02 June 2022 - 02:22 AM

Thank you! I'm embarrassed how long this has set in the corner of the garage just sitting in a pile. While I've had the scope deployed and in rotation, the mount/case/accessories hadn't received much of a 2nd look. Just now starting to dip my toes back into this restoration and the juices and excitement are flowing once again. Currently working on the case. Extensive work sanding, fabricating wooden parts, cutting felt, replacing straps, reattaching about 20 individual parts that came loose, some restaining. Lots of work but it'll be back to good as new when it's done.

Don't sweat it. I often set things aside and then come back to them. Many times in the middle of a project I get distracted/lured by something else I shouldn't be working on. Something that at the time just seems more fun or stimulating.


  • GreyDay and jragsdale like this

#34 apfever

apfever

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,305
  • Joined: 13 May 2008

Posted 13 August 2023 - 11:21 AM

ASTROKERR, just go read a book. This is hoc.

 

Well finally a first for me. Here is the focuser label and lens cell print. One is block H.O.C., and the other is cursive HOC, both on the same Monolux 4384 scope. 

It would be nice to know what Tom's cell had for a mark.

The 75mm is interesting. The change in size makes me wonder about time frames. I doubt they were both made at the same time except for the transition period. 

 

It looks like someone fogged the lens with their breath and wiped it with newspaper. The circle in the haze is a contact area between the lens'. I think it has some fluid in there with a bit of debris, maybe oil or lube, maybe entrapped water. Clams by the hoc symbol and smaller around it. I couldn't open the cell. I'm not sure how it opens to get the lens out. 

 

OK, this is a little freaky but my previous comments in this string were before I ever knew about my scope. My previous comments were before my scope was listed in the "CL EB and other scope ads" string, and before the seller even posted on FB.  Maybe this disaster is meant to work out. Too strange. I'm pretty sure I have a hefty focuser issue. A hose clamp isn't good.  I could use another pinion shaft assembly, even a bent one not as bad as this. I need to open the focuser first to see what else is wrong. The draw tube is disengaged. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • P1010002.JPG
  • P1010003.JPG

Edited by apfever, 13 August 2023 - 11:56 AM.

  • Bomber Bob likes this

#35 deSitter

deSitter

    Still in Old School

  • *****
  • Posts: 18,645
  • Joined: 09 Dec 2004

Posted 13 August 2023 - 02:33 PM

I used a flat primer followed by an enamel gloss professional spray paint, then baked it in the oven at 200 degrees for an hour. I think the gloss is a little much, probably would go with semi-gloss next time, but it certainly pops and looks a million times better than it did before!

Rustoleum satin black is just a near perfect paint for telescopes.

 

-drl



#36 deSitter

deSitter

    Still in Old School

  • *****
  • Posts: 18,645
  • Joined: 09 Dec 2004

Posted 13 August 2023 - 02:34 PM

ASTROKERR, just go read a book. This is hoc.

 

Well finally a first for me. Here is the focuser label and lens cell print. One is block H.O.C., and the other is cursive HOC, both on the same Monolux 4384 scope. 

It would be nice to know what Tom's cell had for a mark.

The 75mm is interesting. The change in size makes me wonder about time frames. I doubt they were both made at the same time except for the transition period. 

 

It looks like someone fogged the lens with their breath and wiped it with newspaper. The circle in the haze is a contact area between the lens'. I think it has some fluid in there with a bit of debris, maybe oil or lube, maybe entrapped water. Clams by the hoc symbol and smaller around it. I couldn't open the cell. I'm not sure how it opens to get the lens out. 

 

OK, this is a little freaky but my previous comments in this string were before I ever knew about my scope. My previous comments were before my scope was listed in the "CL EB and other scope ads" string, and before the seller even posted on FB.  Maybe this disaster is meant to work out. Too strange. I'm pretty sure I have a hefty focuser issue. A hose clamp isn't good.  I could use another pinion shaft assembly, even a bent one not as bad as this. I need to open the focuser first to see what else is wrong. The draw tube is disengaged. 

That's doesn't look as bad as adumbrated. Should be fine. What on earth happened to the cap??

 

-drl



#37 apfever

apfever

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,305
  • Joined: 13 May 2008

Posted 13 August 2023 - 05:55 PM

Lens and cap are 180 from each other. The lens is worse in person. It's like turbulence, the air is always rougher than it looks. The clams will keep it from cleaning up great. I'm hoping for fine. Signs of scratches but hard to say with so much stuff between the glass. Glass photos can be made to look as nice as you want short of complete fractured destruction. 

The cap is great. I thought that was bubble rust extreme but it turns out to be a brittle deposit I can carefully scrape off. I did a little and the paint looks OK under it. Plastic scrapers. The cap's physical shape is good, no bashes and it fits with a perfect snug. The dew shield is another story with major paint fracture. I can reshape the dew shield to look undamaged but I don't like paint stuff. I'm gearing up for it. The hose clamp on the visual back is due to a crack that runs half the length it through the set screw hole. I can replace that and will go 1.25" anyway. Lots of issues like this but I think it will get there. Much to see still.

 

ANYBODY know how the cell comes apart so I don't put big torque where I shouldn't?

 

Dig this, I just now saw that lens cell crack in the dew shield photo and confirmed it is a through crack in the cell from the bottom, through the threads on up, stopping about where the photo shows. Now I have to know exactly how this cell comes apart in detail. That crack needs to be welded up, any ideas?  The new easy aluminum brazing rods are a big item now but I haven't tried them yet. I can reclaim the threads after brazing. 

 

It's not a depression, it's a scope. $138 shipping and $155 for the scope, and I've tossed a lot more on worse things in life....less than a few hundred bucks, I do that every year at the least somehow. It's more a matter of what it was and is now, and might (or might not) be again. I'm not done yet. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • P1010001.JPG
  • P1010008.JPG
  • P1010010.JPG

Edited by apfever, 13 August 2023 - 06:06 PM.

  • deSitter and jragsdale like this

#38 gelkin

gelkin

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • Joined: 22 Sep 2010
  • Loc: WV.

Posted 13 August 2023 - 08:51 PM

Neil your cell looks a lot like an 80mm Atco I restored. Maybe you can tell where it separates by these photos. After the cell came apart there was a set screw, seen at 7oclock locking the ring that was against the lens element. 
Hope this helps. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_1422.jpeg
  • IMG_1423.jpeg


#39 apfever

apfever

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,305
  • Joined: 13 May 2008

Posted 13 August 2023 - 11:44 PM

Thanks Gerald!

 

It's not the same cell at all but that helped. Probably wouldn't have got it without the micro set screw clue because mine wasn't discernable at all with the explicative (derogatory sense) cell condition. It took everything shown including the Leica StereoZoom 4 to dig out the set screw buried in a crater that looked like an unusually round depression in the threads. The main halves came apart at a location I didn't expect at all. I didn't bother with a cloth on a column. I just dropped the glass on my clean finger tips. The three spacers fell out on my hand. Two on my hand, one on the floor. They weren't installed between the lens'. I think the spacers were on the sides of the glass. The glass is stuck hard like the contact point might be glue. The glass was installed with the Crown forward so that was correct. The back of the Flint seems flat so that would be correct. The Crown might be flipped which would explain the sharp contact point between the lens'. The lens are stuck so hard they seem like a cemented doublet but it must be that contact point. Maybe someone put a dot of super glue in there? Maybe it's just an ancient dried liquid contamination?  Any ideas for a friendly approach to getting the glass apart?  What should I soak it in? I can force feed liquid between the glass with a hypodermic on one side and vacuum on the other.  

 

I took several photos of the ordeal.

Attached Thumbnails

  • P1010016.JPG


#40 apfever

apfever

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,305
  • Joined: 13 May 2008

Posted 13 August 2023 - 11:55 PM

Cracked cell and stuck achro glass. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • P1010009.JPG
  • P1010015.JPG
  • P1010011.JPG

  • deSitter, Bomber Bob and jragsdale like this

#41 deSitter

deSitter

    Still in Old School

  • *****
  • Posts: 18,645
  • Joined: 09 Dec 2004

Posted 14 August 2023 - 12:29 AM

Cracked cell and stuck achro glass. 

Removing Canada balsam cement.

 

https://www.cloudyni...ment/?p=2993324

 

-drl



#42 deSitter

deSitter

    Still in Old School

  • *****
  • Posts: 18,645
  • Joined: 09 Dec 2004

Posted 14 August 2023 - 12:37 AM

So likely that circle is just a botched cementing job. The sure way to get them apart is heat to 325 degrees slowly then shove them apart and allow to cool very slowly. Once exposed soak in acetone. You will know when it is melting because you will be able to smell it :)

 

-drl


  • Bomber Bob likes this

#43 Kasmos

Kasmos

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,976
  • Joined: 19 Aug 2015
  • Loc: So Cal

Posted 14 August 2023 - 02:12 AM

If it's Super Glue an acetone soak would likely get it unstuck.

 

As for aluminum brazing rods. My experience with it is that it's much harder than the material you're brazing. This makes it a bit of a challenge to file it down even with the part being repaired without damaging it, so it might be hard to cut new threads.



#44 apfever

apfever

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,305
  • Joined: 13 May 2008

Posted 14 August 2023 - 08:34 AM

I'll clean the exposed surfaces of the lens, then start with an acetone soak making sure I get the acetone through to the contact point. I'll also do a few flushes to get new fluid to the contact point.  I can let that sit in a sealed container which is a good idea for acetone soaks. Heat will be last if needed. I don't have an autoclave but I can control the rate safely. It won't be a toaster oven job.

 

The legs have been slathered in Scotts Liquid Gold and bagged since yesterday. One rail was a sponge for the SLG. All the wood is good. Final Evapo rinse on the hardware is this morning. Two treatments. A lot of paint came off so I'll be getting the best color match Rusto Fine Texture, probably the Dark Pewter (link). Looks like cranking up the media blaster considering the cell (gloss paint for that), so this will take a while. Maybe paint stripper if safe for the metal. I have some of that too, I'll have to check it. 

 

The trick to the threads is to use a regular small tap that has the right pitch specs and 'comb' the repair area. I've done that before on large pipe fittings. Clamp the threads in place and keep the repair just short of the threads. Do the threads last, easy on the rod. That's what I'm thinking at any rate. 

 

At this point I'm no longer only going step by step, ground up. I need to blow this thing apart all the way and see what lurks, OTA and mount. I will finish the tripod and mount which look good so far and should finish up nicely. Paint will add some days, not a week, hopefully show that much next weekend. The exploded view coming today. smile.png


Edited by apfever, 14 August 2023 - 08:45 AM.

  • Kasmos and jragsdale like this

#45 deSitter

deSitter

    Still in Old School

  • *****
  • Posts: 18,645
  • Joined: 09 Dec 2004

Posted 14 August 2023 - 08:49 AM

I'll clean the exposed surfaces of the lens, then start with an acetone soak making sure I get the acetone through to the contact point. I'll also do a few flushes to get new fluid to the contact point.  I can let that sit in a sealed container which is a good idea for acetone soaks. Heat will be last if needed. I don't have an autoclave but I can control the rate safely. It won't be a toaster oven job.

 

The legs have been slathered in Scotts Liquid Gold and bagged since yesterday. One rail was a sponge for the SLG. All the wood is good. Final Evapo rinse on the hardware is this morning. Two treatments. A lot of paint came off so I'll be getting the best color match Rusto Fine Texture, probably the Dark Pewter (link). Looks like cranking up the media blaster considering the cell (gloss paint for that), so this will take a while. Maybe paint stripper if safe for the metal. I have some of that too, I'll have to check it. 

 

The trick to the threads is to use a regular small tap that has the right pitch specs and 'comb' the repair area. I've done that before on large pipe fittings. Clamp the threads in place and keep the repair just short of the threads. Do the threads last, easy on the rod. That's what I'm thinking at any rate. 

 

At this point I'm no longer only going step by step, ground up. I need to blow this thing apart all the way and see what lurks, OTA and mount. I will finish the tripod and mount which look good so far and should finish up nicely. Paint will add some days, not a week, hopefully show that much next weekend. The exploded view coming today. smile.png

For the crack - superglue! The thin sort that can penetrate the crack. Robert Z. Clam can confirm. I just fixed a cracked boss with sg. Anything that is not stressed should be fixable with sg.

 

-drl



#46 jragsdale

jragsdale

    Soyuz

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 3,584
  • Joined: 07 Dec 2015
  • Loc: Idaho

Posted 14 August 2023 - 11:30 AM

I'm guessing the spacers slipped, allowing contact of the elements, then some condensation got in there and then dried, sticking them together. Acetone should do the trick, if not, put in room temp water in a double boiler and slowly heat to around 175° for about an hour, they should slide right apart.

 

(BTW, you know you're not posting these in your 4384 thread anymore, right?) 



#47 apfever

apfever

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,305
  • Joined: 13 May 2008

Posted 14 August 2023 - 11:50 AM

The spacers are large and couldn't come out with the lens installed. They literally fell out in my hand and on the carpet when I dropped the lens out. They show the bend where they slightly extruded out the side of the glass. They could have pulled out when the lens was installed but that should have been noticed. Who knows what was going on with this thing.

 

Yeah, I'm horrible with my strings. My apologies and I'll figure this out. I wish I had found this string to begin with as it consolidates the subject, follows beautifully from my entries on page one, and will keep this one out of the archives longer. I'll see about moving the new one here and deleting that one, later.  


  • jragsdale likes this

#48 deSitter

deSitter

    Still in Old School

  • *****
  • Posts: 18,645
  • Joined: 09 Dec 2004

Posted 14 August 2023 - 12:01 PM

I'm guessing the spacers slipped, allowing contact of the elements, then some condensation got in there and then dried, sticking them together. Acetone should do the trick, if not, put in room temp water in a double boiler and slowly heat to around 175° for about an hour, they should slide right apart.

 

(BTW, you know you're not posting these in your 4384 thread anymore, right?) 

R2 and R3 are not equal (to control ghosting) with R2 slightly steeper than R3 - which would cause central contact. So that's a good theory. In a small area they would be so close that surface tension could hold them stuck like glue. But then they should still slide over each other if lateral pressure was exerted on one element.

 

-drl



#49 Kasmos

Kasmos

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,976
  • Joined: 19 Aug 2015
  • Loc: So Cal

Posted 14 August 2023 - 03:30 PM

A hot water soak might be a good first attempt. I once separated a cemented finder objective by carefully microwaving it in a coffee cup. If it isn't glued it may not need too much heat to free them up.



#50 apfever

apfever

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,305
  • Joined: 13 May 2008

Posted 14 August 2023 - 06:58 PM

My first photo back off close up mode for assembly reference. I took 25 photos for the assembly reference file.

Things I did NOT reduce to individual nuts, bolts, pins and castings:

1. Finder eyepiece (clean good cross hairs)

2. Finder objective cell (yet)

3. Rack on focuser draw tube

4. Objective

 

Everything passed. Little things here and there outside of the big stuff already mentioned. I'm back to ground up assembly. The main paint on the mount might clean up OK so I'll have to think about matching since the leg hardware all flaked off. That's for later but not long. I'm out of acetone so time for a Depot list. Diesel fuel for the petrified grease. Acetone first, heat if needed. One surface is coated. 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • P1010021.JPG

  • deSitter, clamchip, jragsdale and 1 other like this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics