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Satellite Train

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#1 LDW47

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 06:12 PM

The other nite for the first time in my astronomy career I watched a train of satellites (4) following one right after the other like whats being complained about by many astronomers in this forum, in particular ! It was odd to see but they sure weren’t big or shiny like some keep complaining about, it sure wasn’t a doomsday happening for future generations. The stars weren’t in any danger of being blocked out if those measly little things were any indication, they were pretty small and faint to be honest. Are you sure its going to be the end of the night skies as we know it, sell all our gear, maybe ........ ?? Maybe the sky won’t fall and Santa will come again next Xmas ! What gives here ?? Clear clear nite skize !


Edited by LDW47, 20 June 2020 - 06:15 PM.

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#2 ButterFly

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 06:23 PM

Only four?  you're lucky!

 

I saw a train of ten two nights ago.  Each were as bright as nearby Mirfak.  It is only the beginning.



#3 LDW47

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 06:42 PM

Only four?  you're lucky!

 

I saw a train of ten two nights ago.  Each were as bright as nearby Mirfak.  It is only the beginning.

Boy two experiences at opposite ends, the stories are about to start I think, my eyesite is still pretty good though ! Hopefully we will hear more ?  Clear dark skiys !  PS: Maybe there is more than one ISS ?


Edited by LDW47, 20 June 2020 - 06:43 PM.


#4 Simcal

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 06:44 PM

Well, if you drop $1-6K on a mount, then another $1-5K on a telescope, and then a few $K on a cameras, go out, and every image you take has streaks of satellites going across it, then that's going to get annoying.  

 

If you drop $400M on an observatory (Vera C Rubin / Large Synoptic Survey Telescope, for example) to move science forward, employ hundreds to thousands of scientists through research grants and funding, only to have your science hamstrung because 50% of your data is corrupted, then that gets kinda serious.

 

The fact that a handful of shareholders (StarLink isn't public yet) will benefit, versus the cost to amateurs, professionals now and in the future, seems a tad heavy handed.


Edited by Simcal, 20 June 2020 - 06:45 PM.

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#5 Cali

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 06:53 PM

Because of the lack of national and international regulation, "You've got one man, one company, unilaterally changing the appearance of the night sky, for everyone", said Patrick Seitzer, professor emeritus in astronomy at the University of Michigan.

 

Source: July/August 2020 Issue (no link yet) of SkyNews magazine, article entitled "Fraught Frontier",

 

-Cal


Edited by Cali, 20 June 2020 - 06:55 PM.

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#6 LDW47

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 07:11 PM

From my albeit limited experience from what I have seen I’m willing to let ‘ time will tell ‘ as it is hard to believe that all these world renowned people, these experts in the field of the night sky would just let it happen, maybe their evidence couldn’t be substantiated, why weren’t  / aren’t the doomsayers out in mass protest like everything else ? All I know is up here in my northern surrounds I haven’t yet seen any massively large, bright lights go whizzing by in formation ! I am not trying to be funny, just realistic, what I saw go scooting by the front of my scope were rather faint pin points of light !  Clear pin point skize !



#7 LDW47

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 07:16 PM

Well, if you drop $1-6K on a mount, then another $1-5K on a telescope, and then a few $K on a cameras, go out, and every image you take has streaks of satellites going across it, then that's going to get annoying.  

 

If you drop $400M on an observatory (Vera C Rubin / Large Synoptic Survey Telescope, for example) to move science forward, employ hundreds to thousands of scientists through research grants and funding, only to have your science hamstrung because 50% of your data is corrupted, then that gets kinda serious.

 

The fact that a handful of shareholders (StarLink isn't public yet) will benefit, versus the cost to amateurs, professionals now and in the future, seems a tad heavy handed.

The experts in AP keep saying you can edit those streaks out in post processing ??  Clear post skiys !



#8 Simcal

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 07:28 PM

The experts in AP keep saying you can edit those streaks out in post processing ??  Clear post skiys !

Which is fine when you're an amateur and have all the time in the world to acquire enough good data to get their perfect pic.  Not so great when you're a post-grad working on a Phd and have only been allotted 3-4 hours of data acquisition time.

 

Frustration will without doubt, drive some people from the endeavour.



#9 LDW47

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 07:43 PM

Which is fine when you're an amateur and have all the time in the world to acquire enough good data to get their perfect pic.  Not so great when you're a post-grad working on a Phd and have only been allotted 3-4 hours of data acquisition time.

 

Frustration will without doubt, drive some people from the endeavour.

If thats what it does to some potential PHD’er then I guess life is cruel but I think allowances will be made by the powers that be, no one fails to succeed because of a satellite, come on now !


Edited by LDW47, 20 June 2020 - 08:41 PM.


#10 Simcal

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 08:06 PM

Well, I guess we disagree.  How's the black flies up there?



#11 LDW47

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 08:40 PM

Well, I guess we disagree.  How's the black flies up there?

The black flies are starting to die off but the mosquitos are still pretty bad, they are driving the moose and deer out to the highways ! Next it will be the horse and deer flies and the sand flies ( no see’ums ) at night, lol ! Nothing changes, just the year, lol ! By the end of July it should be great, as usual ! I am pretty well immune to them, I haven’t used fly dope for decades ! Welcome to the north country land of the black nite skies !  And maybe satellites !


Edited by LDW47, 20 June 2020 - 08:42 PM.


#12 aatt

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 03:28 PM

4 satellites is no big deal. Multiply that by a thousand and maybe you will think differently. Personally I am against turning the entire night sky into a disco ball, which is what these folks are going to do. I never liked disco anyway...
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#13 ButterFly

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 04:34 PM

4 satellites is no big deal. Multiply that by a thousand and maybe you will think differently. Personally I am against turning the entire night sky into a disco ball, which is what these folks are going to do. I never liked disco anyway...

But on the plus side, we can have internet in the jungle so I can look up what the sky used to look like.


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#14 LDW47

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 05:58 PM

4 satellites is no big deal. Multiply that by a thousand and maybe you will think differently. Personally I am against turning the entire night sky into a disco ball, which is what these folks are going to do. I never liked disco anyway...

The point is they weren’t big and they weren’t bright and they weren’t very noticeable ! The funny thing is and what got me was the many, many, many experienced fellow observers that have spoke out on how big and bright and annoying they are, I sure can’t verify that description with what I saw ? Even multiplied by 1000 I am sure it won’t take much to see, to focus out beyond their limits, out into space like we always have, theres no room or need to be a pessimist in this great hobby ! The world sure won’t end tomorrow ! Like with every issue some just plain don’t like change, they fight it tooth and nail, lol !  Clear changing skiys ! 


Edited by LDW47, 21 June 2020 - 06:02 PM.


#15 aatt

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 09:48 AM

This is not about resistance to change, it is about desecrating the night sky with thousands of points of light. By the same reasoning you could say light pollution should not be resisted either.After all light pollution has changed the sky, so we should just suck it up and think positively about how we can’t see anything other than the moon and planets. There is change and then there is wanton greed that unabated will put more lights in the sky than there are visible stars. Call me a Luddite, but some changes should never come to pass.

#16 LDW47

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 10:46 AM

This is not about resistance to change, it is about desecrating the night sky with thousands of points of light. By the same reasoning you could say light pollution should not be resisted either.After all light pollution has changed the sky, so we should just suck it up and think positively about how we can’t see anything other than the moon and planets. There is change and then there is wanton greed that unabated will put more lights in the sky than there are visible stars. Call me a Luddite, but some changes should never come to pass.

Thats your and some others opinion doesn’t mean everyone wants to beat their head against a wall, cry the blues if you will, but thats the way some are ! When you get / find a workable solution I’m all for it IF one is needed, until then I ain’t missin’ a single nite with one of my scope buddies ! Till then I will stick with the fact that they weren’t intrusive on my sky watching in the least ! As my old gramma used to say ‘ not guilty till proven otherwise ‘ but thanx for your comment. Clear wondrous skize !  PS: If all you can see are the moon and planets it sure as h*ll isn’t those minute, dim satellites that are causing your problem.


Edited by LDW47, 22 June 2020 - 10:49 AM.


#17 Kunama

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 11:07 PM

If thats what it does to some potential PHD’er then I guess life is cruel but I think allowances will be made by the powers that be, no one fails to succeed because of a satellite, come on now !

I guess there’s the difference, some people like to look at pretty lights while others are trying to study the universe and increase our understanding of it.

 

If you only saw a string of 4 you must be far enough north, here at least the progression is at times endless, dozens of them, not one satellite..... come on now?



#18 LDW47

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 08:09 AM

I guess there’s the difference, some people like to look at pretty lights while others are trying to study the universe and increase our understanding of it.

 

If you only saw a string of 4 you must be far enough north, here at least the progression is at times endless, dozens of them, not one satellite..... come on now?

I’m just waiting, holding back if you will until you complainers, you doers of everything come up with the solution to this perceived problem and I will then back it up 100% ! Until then let me repeat that they weren’t very big, very small if you ask me, they were very dim in relation to the myriad of background stars and they weren’t intrusive on my viewing activities one little bit ! I want to be, very hopefully, convinced of this great problem that is endangering mankind but its not happening ! Come on now some just hate change, good or bad, its human nature ! You would think that with all the thousands of satellites that are up there already, new or used, that perceived problem would already exist but to say these will literally blank out the astronomical skies its a bit much ......... !  Clear wide open skies !



#19 LDW47

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 08:12 AM

I guess there’s the difference, some people like to look at pretty lights while others are trying to study the universe and increase our understanding of it.

 

If you only saw a string of 4 you must be far enough north, here at least the progression is at times endless, dozens of them, not one satellite..... come on now?

The stars themselves are pretty lites, what more do we want, they are part of the universe, there to behold !  Clear wondrous skiys !



#20 BBaileyOK

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 11:35 PM

My family just returned from Black Mesa in the OK panhandle (Bortle 1). We saw no less than 2 dozen satellites in a staggered train over the course of a few minutes on our first night there. It was interesting from an observational standpoint, but also alarming to think of what it would look like compounded by 500 times. I read the full Starlink constellation would consist of around 12,000 satellites.

https://www.forbes.c...ites-explained/
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#21 ButterFly

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 02:34 PM

My family just returned from Black Mesa in the OK panhandle (Bortle 1). We saw no less than 2 dozen satellites in a staggered train over the course of a few minutes on our first night there. It was interesting from an observational standpoint, but also alarming to think of what it would look like compounded by 500 times. I read the full Starlink constellation would consist of around 12,000 satellites.

https://www.forbes.c...ites-explained/

At a site like that, Venus and Jupiter very much affect dark adaptation.  It will be rather hard to miss the hundreds visible at a time.  At least his Muskiness admitted the refelctions are a problem and is seeking a way to reduce it.



#22 Cali

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 02:48 PM

Its déjà vu all over again. Relativity Space inks deals for California launch pad, Iridium satellite launches.

 

That's right folks, Iridum satellites, all 66 of them, launched on 3D-printed rockets yet. Let's hope they don't run out of toner.

 

- Cal


Edited by Cali, 24 June 2020 - 02:53 PM.


#23 t_image

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 03:56 AM

Its déjà vu all over again. Relativity Space inks deals for California launch pad, Iridium satellite launches.

 

That's right folks, Iridum satellites, all 66 of them, launched on 3D-printed rockets yet. Let's hope they don't run out of toner.

 

- Cal

Both the title and your excitement and post wording are a complete misunderstanding of the "inked deal."

The Iridium Next satellites are already up, this is for backups like if satellite collisions take place in the near future. 
 



#24 t_image

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 04:22 AM

The other nite for the first time in my astronomy career I watched a train of satellites (4) following one right after the other like whats being complained about by many astronomers in this forum, in particular ! It was odd to see but they sure weren’t big or shiny like some keep complaining about, it sure wasn’t a doomsday happening for future generations. The stars weren’t in any danger of being blocked out if those measly little things were any indication, they were pretty small and faint to be honest. Are you sure its going to be the end of the night skies as we know it, sell all our gear, maybe ........ ?? Maybe the sky won’t fall and Santa will come again next Xmas ! What gives here ?? Clear clear nite skize !

Thanks for your not much heard opinion about the matter, I think it is a good add!

 

Things to avoid (for anyone that cares to opine):

#1 satellites aren't stars that have a fixed magnitude like so many things 'we on CN' are familiar with.....

 

#2 observing recently launched satellites not in their final orbit is not necessarily an indicator of ANYTHING.

-look at the threads about the drama people had of trying to spot the manned Space-X Dragon before it reached the ISS. If satellite 'spotting' is so simple then ???????

 

#3 I dare anyone that is so passionate on their opinions to actually go out and do a little homework on the matter looking up at the sky.

----there are lots of tools and info out there to:

a. know exactly WHICH starlink satellite you are looking at

b. pick ones that aren't recently launched but are in their permanent orbit.

c. observe these SAME ones over the course of a series of nights or even over the same clear night.....

#4 newsflash to all those 'experts' who like to say....."but multiply that by thousands.....'---If you look at the number of starlinks that are up already and actually try to see any number of the ones in final position, you might learn something.

 

Cheers!


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#25 MJB87

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 06:49 AM

Let's all please remember that we need to be cordial and polite in our posts.  It is certainly possible to criticize someone's point of view without insulting them.


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