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Full frame camera options, which one would you choose. ASI6200 or ASI2400?

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#1 telfish

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 02:57 PM

I am shortly going to upgrade to a Full frame sensor camera. I like to shoot one shot color.

 

Details of sky and scopes.

 

I live under bortle 3 borderline 2 skies though seeing is normally not the best due to the mountains and jet stream. So plenty dark.

 

I am rationalizing my scopes to two refractors  a Esprit 120 and a TS 71 mm quad astrograph. I have an 0.8 and 0.63 reducer for the Esprit.

 

I have narrowed the choice down to the following cameras.

 

ZWO ASI2400MC Pro   so 14 bit ADC, 5.9 um pixels, 24 MP, 100Ke full well. 80%+qe.

 

 

ZWO ASI6200MC Pro so 16 bit ADC, 3.76 um pixels,  62 MP, 51400 full well, qe 91%.

 

 

Both would make great cameras I believe but I am having a hard time choosing between them. I am hoping some of the gurus here can help out regarding over/under sampling and whether the bigger pixels would suit my skies and scopes better. Price is about the same so that is not a consideration.

 

I know not a lot of these are around in the wild but I would love to hear from users as to their thoughts on the cameras.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

Terry.


Edited by telfish, 04 July 2020 - 04:16 PM.


#2 Stelios

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 03:12 PM

The 2600 is an APS-C sized sensor (23.5 x 17.5mm). 

 

The 6200 is a full-frame sensor (36 x 24 mm).

 

Both cameras have 3.76um pixels.

 

Perhaps you need to rethink based on the above?


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#3 imtl

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 03:13 PM

Well according to the title of your post you are after a full frame. The 2600MC is not a full frame its an APS-C



#4 Der_Pit

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 03:14 PM

You're talking about the 2400MC.  The 2600 is APS-C.

 

Hands down the 6200 for me (though I'd only buy a mono).  But 14bit and (especially for OSC) large pixels 'overcompensate' the higher QE for me....



#5 telfish

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 03:15 PM

The 2600 is an APS-C sized sensor (23.5 x 17.5mm). 

 

The 6200 is a full-frame sensor (36 x 24 mm).

 

Both cameras have 3.76um pixels.

 

Perhaps you need to rethink based on the above?

Thanks a typo I meant the 2400MC



#6 telfish

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 03:15 PM

Well according to the title of your post you are after a full frame. The 2600MC is not a full frame its an APS-C

My bad I meant the 2400MC



#7 rgsalinger

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 03:42 PM

With those scopes I'd get the ASI6200 instead. That will give you generally closer to optimal sampling when the seeing is good. If you were using a longer telescope I'd recommend the 2400 for the reverse reason - the larger pixels will give you really nice sampling. I just hope that those scopes are up to the task of delivering round stars using a full frame camera. None of mine can do it (to my standard) even with an APS-C chip. 

Rgrds-Ross


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#8 Ryou

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 04:00 PM

I'm going to second the 6200 for sample size and also add on that you do get a little more wiggle room for cropping with the 62mp camera. You have about 1/3rd more pixels (about 3k x 2k) on the 6200 to crop in for detail shots or similar. 


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#9 telfish

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 04:01 PM

With those scopes I'd get the ASI6200 instead. That will give you generally closer to optimal sampling when the seeing is good. If you were using a longer telescope I'd recommend the 2400 for the reverse reason - the larger pixels will give you really nice sampling. I just hope that those scopes are up to the task of delivering round stars using a full frame camera. None of mine can do it (to my standard) even with an APS-C chip. 

Rgrds-Ross

Thanks Ross. I was leaning toward the 6200 mainly because I could software bin that and still have decent resolution. Plus i want to play with the monobin option which I believe reduces the sensor effective pixels by 4 so the 62 MP would still be a useful 15 mp image.

 

I take your point about the difficulty of getting good star shapes at full frame. Before I jump I will try my Canon  6d on both scopes and take a look. I can always fall back to the 2600 APSC size if I cant get a decent result.


Edited by telfish, 04 July 2020 - 04:12 PM.


#10 rgsalinger

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 04:21 PM

I'm an inveterate pixel peeper. If you look at the Astrobin photos I've put up recently they look pretty nice. The fact is that the stars in the corners are just not as round with the TV127is as I would like them to be using an APS-C chipped camera. In the end it probably doesn't matter- I'm still having fun - but I find it annoying and you might too (or not.wink.gif). 

Rgrds-Ross 


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#11 OldManSky

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 05:57 PM

I would get the 2400 if they had it in mono. Mostly for the huge FWC.

Since it’s not available in mono, I’m planning on the 6200 with my year end bonus.

I have zero interest in OSC. :)


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#12 Ryou

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 06:05 PM

I would get the 2400 if they had it in mono. Mostly for the huge FWC.

Since it’s not available in mono, I’m planning on the 6200 with my year end bonus.

I have zero interest in OSC. smile.gif

I'm actually marginally surprised that the 6200 has a mono version tbh. It feels like once you pass the 1" or 4/3 sensors that mono just kind of goes *poof*... or at least with CMOS. Maybe some CCDs are out there for that size, however I also feel like that is almost a different ball game all together.


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#13 rgsalinger

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 09:12 PM

For the record there have been large CCD sensors for at least 10 years. The Kodak 11000 and 16803 chips have been around for a long time. The problem is that they made for really expensive cameras. The FLI website has this handy chart.  


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#14 calypsob

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 07:12 AM

The 6200 will of course sample the best on your setup. The 2400 has pretty large pixels for a cmos, I have not seen any data from this yet but I would say anecdotally, based on dslr data, that a 1hr integration on the 2400 wil look alot cleaner than an hr on the 6200mc even if you undersampled both cameras slightly. This is due to the larger pixels of course. I guess the other thing you should consider are the tremendous files the 6200 will produce. Each imaging session may eat 1-2tb. Luckily these days a 2tb ssd is about $199

#15 telfish

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 07:25 AM

The 6200 will of course sample the best on your setup. The 2400 has pretty large pixels for a cmos, I have not seen any data from this yet but I would say anecdotally, based on dslr data, that a 1hr integration on the 2400 wil look alot cleaner than an hr on the 6200mc even if you undersampled both cameras slightly. This is due to the larger pixels of course. I guess the other thing you should consider are the tremendous files the 6200 will produce. Each imaging session may eat 1-2tb. Luckily these days a 2tb ssd is about $199

Many thanks, I really value your opinion. Do you think if I binned the 6200 in software under less favorable conditions I would get similar data to the 2400 considering the number of pixels available. Also do you have any thoughts on the monobin option on this camera, how would that work with a duoband filter or even a normal narrowband filter. I am thinking of this as an occasional option for adding narrowband data to the color data, would having a quarter of the large number of pixels available make for a decent result?



#16 ChrisWhite

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 07:28 AM

The 6200 will of course sample the best on your setup. The 2400 has pretty large pixels for a cmos, I have not seen any data from this yet but I would say anecdotally, based on dslr data, that a 1hr integration on the 2400 wil look alot cleaner than an hr on the 6200mc even if you undersampled both cameras slightly. This is due to the larger pixels of course. I guess the other thing you should consider are the tremendous files the 6200 will produce. Each imaging session may eat 1-2tb. Luckily these days a 2tb ssd is about $199

Its funny you bring this up.  This is a main reason I have zero interest in the 6200.  I love having small files and being able to take long exposures with the cameras I have.  (Not saying you cant take long exposures with the 6200)

 

PI eats my data in no time at al, and a single 4TB hard drive is good for years of imaging. 


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#17 telfish

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 07:48 AM

Its funny you bring this up.  This is a main reason I have zero interest in the 6200.  I love having small files and being able to take long exposures with the cameras I have.  (Not saying you cant take long exposures with the 6200)

 

PI eats my data in no time at al, and a single 4TB hard drive is good for years of imaging. 

That is why I built a very powerful server computer with dual xenon cpu's , it just eats through data. And with a raid drive of 10K drives plenty of storage. I am looking for versatility in this camera, one I can use at full resolution or bin when needed and use the massive capacity for some narrowband work. Will need to look for examples of binned images from the camera. I am in no rush. I can't be in a rush cause there are none available anywhere right now.



#18 ChrisWhite

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 08:35 AM

That is why I built a very powerful server computer with dual xenon cpu's , it just eats through data. And with a raid drive of 10K drives plenty of storage. I am looking for versatility in this camera, one I can use at full resolution or bin when needed and use the massive capacity for some narrowband work. Will need to look for examples of binned images from the camera. I am in no rush. I can't be in a rush cause there are none available anywhere right now.

I'd say you are well prepared!

 

When considering versatility I couldnt think of a better camera than the 6200.  Small pixels, when you need them... large sensor (FOV) when you need it.  ROI/Video capability when you need it.  16bit...

 

If cost is not a factor, I think you have answered your own question. 


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#19 telfish

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 10:22 AM

I'd say you are well prepared!

 

When considering versatility I couldnt think of a better camera than the 6200.  Small pixels, when you need them... large sensor (FOV) when you need it.  ROI/Video capability when you need it.  16bit...

 

If cost is not a factor, I think you have answered your own question. 

Thanks , I value your opinion very much.

 

Terry



#20 rgsalinger

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 12:40 PM

The OP was talking about color cameras, I think. Can you bin either of those cameras and still get color? I don't have one, so I really don't know the answer but it sounds dubious. Given that, I don't think that versatility really enters the equation. I also wonder how much better one would, in practice, be versus the other. I'm not buying both and doing a bake off but still, it really sounds (now that I think about it) like a nuanced kind of thing. 

 

At the same time, I can't work out why I would have "1 TB" of data for an imaging session. I'm just going by my own F5 systems. I take 3 minute exposures which means about 15 an hour, given the the overhead of my automation. If I image for 6 hours I get about 100 images or about 12GB of data. (Remember these are color cameras.) I take 16 flats and I use a dark library for at least 3 months. 

 

I image remotely over a slowish internet connection. I use a google drive and start synching my data at the start of each session because I often have those 115mb files to deal with. I'm normally all caught up with my 600 a couple of hours after the session is over. Even when I'm out at the observatory I do that. Then I don't have to remember to bring along my thumb drive! That's really helped me, given that I can't upgrade (sigh) to a really fast connection. 

 

Rgrds-Ross 


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#21 telfish

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 12:52 PM

The QHY600 uses the same sensor as the ASI6200, have you tried binning your QHY600 Ross?



#22 Ryou

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 01:04 PM

While I think file size and storage is important to think about, unless you're running like a mini-pc (or ASIAir) with limited capacity then really there are so many solutions out there you can use with just massive storage sizes. Like why not build/get a NAS? Buy a 2-bay NAS for like 300, toss a couple 8tb in for 200/ea, and for like 700 you either have 16 gigs of storage or 8gig of RAID (for data loss) storage. That's a lot of storage even if a single frame is like 100mb from the camera. In fact I'd probably guess you'd get about 10k frames/tb if it was 100mb and my math is right. 

 

Seems like the OP has this covered already, so this isn't applicable there, however in general storage just is not a huge issue nowadays with the abundance of large capacity drives and NAS units. Additionally you could always just deep storage (like bluray or external HDs) your single subs and keep only stacks on your main PC, which while those will add up over time it's not as bad as say 240 subs/hr if shooting 15second exposures.


Edited by Ryou, 05 July 2020 - 01:06 PM.

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#23 Joe G

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 01:34 PM

You might want to consider the QHY367C too.  I have the ZWO version.  Seems to work great.  You can look at my Flickr for examples.

 

https://www.qhyccd.c...&catid=94&id=10


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#24 telfish

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 01:52 PM

You might want to consider the QHY367C too.  I have the ZWO version.  Seems to work great.  You can look at my Flickr for examples.

 

https://www.qhyccd.c...&catid=94&id=10

Looks nice, I don't see an equivalent ZWO camera, I want to stick with ZWO for when the ASIair becomes mature. 



#25 Ryou

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 02:02 PM

At the same time, I can't work out why I would have "1 TB" of data for an imaging session. I'm just going by my own F5 systems. I take 3 minute exposures which means about 15 an hour, given the the overhead of my automation. If I image for 6 hours I get about 100 images or about 12GB of data. (Remember these are color cameras.) I take 16 flats and I use a dark library for at least 3 months. 

 

I can understand why someone would maybe THINK that it'd be 1tb of data per session with massive file sizes, however really when you factor it out it is not and is very managable. 

 

Like even using your 100 image = 12gig of data thing it'd take roughly 8k images to equal 1tb. Even if you shoot short and like 4 frames a minute (10-15s exposures when factoring in automation) that is still only the 240 frames mentioned before. If 100 frames = 12 gigs than 12x2.4 = 28.8 gigs/hr. Let's round to 30 gigs just cause. 

 

So yea, if you have a small hard drive or limited capacity storage for some reason then yep, this is going to hurt. In 2-3 hours you'd fill a smaller 120gig capacity drive like some Mini-PCs come with. This does assume short exposures though and is a very specific use case type thing for it be an issue.


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