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*That Mars image circulating

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#1 dhammy

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 09:49 PM

So there’s a Mars image being shared around that was taken with a 14” and 290MM... you know the one I mean (shared on Facebook by ZWO so you can find it).

 

The owner Oleg Bouvitch stated it was a first light image and “There’s a special imaging and processing technique that enables you to go beyond diffraction limit with your telescope.” 
 

Is this an example of numerous sharpening iterations that create their own information?

 

 


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#2 aaube

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 09:59 PM

Yes, when you move those wavelets very very far to the right you get images like these...



#3 KiwiRay

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 10:10 PM

Looks like it.  This comes across as an over-cooked mess.  In my view, this is what a well-processed C14 image of this face of Mars should look like:

 

https://www.cloudyni...ing/?p=10321149


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#4 AstroEthan

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 12:04 AM

I saw this image also.

There are many processing artifacts, the most prominent being the structure that looks like a mountain between Olympus Mons and the Tharsis Volcanos. My assumption here is overzealous processing.

Here’s a link to a map of the region. There are 2 small craters in that area, but certainly nothing like what is in the picture.

https://mars.nasa.go...00408-full2.jpg

Edited by AstroEthan, 16 July 2020 - 12:13 AM.


#5 Tom Glenn

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 12:34 AM

Why is no link being supplied to the original image in question? To have any sort of sensible discussion, you can’t just speak in code. If it was posted in a public forum then it’s fair game to discuss, but I have no idea what image this is, and don’t spend time on Facebook.

 

Edit:  OK I found it through Google.  Not hard, but still no reason not to provide a link (because most people won't "know the one you mean").  Without going into any specific artifacts, the overall first impression IMO is not particularly favorable, as the image appears more like a computer simulation than a photographic image.  But to each their own!  Everyone has preferences.  I would be interested to see what a slightly less aggressively processed version looks like.  

 

https://www.facebook...&type=3


Edited by Tom Glenn, 16 July 2020 - 12:43 AM.

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#6 Vinny1980

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 12:51 AM

Yes I ve seen that image. I was quite sceptical for the image in itself, and also more after having visited the author page. He confuses the diffraction limit (which cannot be overcome) with the Dawes limit, which strictly applies to double stars only, and moreover I suggest to have a look at the Mars he obtained down in 2018 for the Great Opposition.

It's likely an hardly and unproperly overprocessed image.

Examining the raw image would put an end to all discussions, but they are rarely provided.


Edited by Vinny1980, 16 July 2020 - 03:39 AM.

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#7 CPellier

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 02:08 AM

Indeed, an extremely overprocessed image. The original data must be good however.

 

Looks like it.  This comes across as an over-cooked mess.  In my view, this is what a well-processed C14 image of this face of Mars should look like:

 

https://www.cloudyni...ing/?p=10321149

Agreed, this processing is superb.



#8 DMach

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 03:25 AM

There's some artistic merit to it, I guess?



#9 Kokatha man

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 05:50 AM

Waaaall - I've looked at the image bigshock.gif scared.gif rofl2.gif  & I contemplated making a comment on the ZWO site...but folks really are afraid to call out rubbish & I know this from experience here & elsewhere...so I usually let all these ridiculous postings, claims & claptrap pass me by nowadays..! roflmao.gif

 

What's the point...the world is full of rubbish masquerading as genuine, whether it's behaviour or beliefs; some folks make millions & others become "famous" in ways never dreamed of before now for reasons that beggar belief: Christophe, you're being very kind to think the data was decent to start with...you might be right - but who would know!

 

It is so "over-sharpened" & riddled with artefacts from blocky deconvolutions & totally false detail that it looks like the proverbial pig with uber-excessive makeup...with apologies to the pig! grin.gif

 

 

 

 


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#10 yock1960

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 06:27 AM

Well, it's over cooked, but some folks like things burnt! I sometimes burn things, but not to this extent. This took way too much effort, but in the end...there's always....why take pictures anyway?lalalala.gif lol.gif

 

Steve



#11 rik ter horst

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 08:01 AM

Wow, very interesting, this discussion.... To my taste the processing was overdone, yes, but I believe that Oleg Bouevitch's intentions are genuine. I think that he had close to perfect circumstances, something that doesn't happen too often to all of us. Postprocessing can be done in so many ways, depending on seeing and telescope, and we know that it can lead to different results, but not necessarily 'fake' results. It's also a matter of taste.

 

My suggestion is to stay kind and respect his choices and maybe ask him to elaborate more about his technique. It might be interesting after all. From a second Facebook post of Oleg (see https://www.facebook...757.-2207520000..) I understand that he agrees that "the sharpening could be turned down a bit". Anyway, he must have had (close to) perfect circumstances.

 

Regarding the image itself, something caught my attention; it's the two brighter spots under Olympus Mons. Could they be new storms?

 

I hope he'll join in to show his workflow.... 


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#12 t-ara-fan

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 10:04 AM

 . you know the one I mean

No I don't. Nor do I use that spyware Facebook.  You couldn't bother to link it?


Edited by t-ara-fan, 16 July 2020 - 10:04 AM.


#13 freddie

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 12:01 PM

If you don’t use Facebook and think it’s spyware, a link wouldn’t be much use to you as you no doubt wouldn’t want to use it given your thoughts on Facebook!


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#14 dhammy

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 03:30 PM

Yeah I agree on the over sharpening as we all know Mars doesn't look like that at that level.

 

My curiosity got the better of me and I had some free time so... I used my last image of Mars right out of AS!3 (no wavelets) and this was the result from a c9.25. This is using Topaz Sharpen, Smart sharpen in Photoshop and Gigapixel AI which is what I suspect Oleg maybe used. 

 

Really happy with the detail in the south pole - you don't see it this clear that often wink.gif I've included the 'normally processed' one for comparison. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • Mars Oversharpened.png
  • Mars 2020-07-11-0757_1.png

Edited by dhammy, 16 July 2020 - 03:54 PM.

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#15 yock1960

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 04:18 PM

Yeah I agree on the over sharpening as we all know Mars doesn't look like that at that level.

 

My curiosity got the better of me and I had some free time so... I used my last image of Mars right out of AS!3 (no wavelets) and this was the result from a c9.25. This is using Topaz Sharpen, Smart sharpen in Photoshop and Gigapixel AI which is what I suspect Oleg maybe used. 

 

Really happy with the detail in the south pole - you don't see it this clear that often wink.gif I've included the 'normally processed' one for comparison. 

That's interesting David. Might be fun to try and you've given me some ideas.

 

Steve


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#16 KiwiRay

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 04:19 PM

You've captured crevasses in the polar glaciers, David - excellent work!  This is a really nice illustration of how artifacts can appear with overprocessing and be mistaken for details by those with less experience.  I didn't think Registax alone could produce Oleg's artifacts, but I had no idea what other tools people have been using to over-process their images.


Edited by KiwiRay, 16 July 2020 - 04:20 PM.

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#17 DMach

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 08:14 PM

Wow, very interesting, this discussion.... To my taste the processing was overdone, yes, but I believe that Oleg Bouevitch's intentions are genuine. I think that he had close to perfect circumstances, something that doesn't happen too often to all of us. Postprocessing can be done in so many ways, depending on seeing and telescope, and we know that it can lead to different results, but not necessarily 'fake' results. It's also a matter of taste.

 

My suggestion is to stay kind and respect his choices and maybe ask him to elaborate more about his technique. It might be interesting after all. From a second Facebook post of Oleg (see https://www.facebook...757.-2207520000..) I understand that he agrees that "the sharpening could be turned down a bit". Anyway, he must have had (close to) perfect circumstances.

 

Regarding the image itself, something caught my attention; it's the two brighter spots under Olympus Mons. Could they be new storms?

 

I hope he'll join in to show his workflow.... 

I don't think anyone disagrees that processing comes down to personal taste, but propagating claims like "special imaging and processing technique that enables you to go beyond diffraction limit with your telescope" is neither ideal nor helpful.


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#18 DMach

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 08:15 PM

In other news, here's the current Image of the Day on Astrobin:

 

https://www.astrobin...f6t2oz/?nc=user



#19 RedLionNJ

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 08:27 PM

Nick (HappyLimpet) drew my attention to Oleg's image a couple days ago. He was convinced some trickery (or over-processing) was going on. I was leaning toward giving Oleg a little more of the benefit of the doubt, particularly as Mars is a target we would really, really like to be able to draw out a crater or at least a 3-D mountain from.

 

But when I took sufficient time a bit later and realized the apparent resolution Oleg was achieving on Mars - yep, no way. The lighter areas in the dark southern hemisphere's termperate latitudes in particular are just too narrow, too crisp. Then there's also the total absence of the "edge rind effect". That HAD to be doctored-out, if it even existed in the original stack data.

 

We need more skeptics in 2020.

 

Grant


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#20 yock1960

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Posted 17 July 2020 - 05:29 AM

In other news, here's the current Image of the Day on Astrobin:

 

https://www.astrobin...f6t2oz/?nc=user

Yeah, I'm about done with Astrobin after they lost 90% of my data. Too much work to restore. 

 

I recognize this result as coming from Pixinsight, I've seen it, forget at the moment...possibly too much deringing.

 

I won't claim my images are completely 'scientific', but this is crossing the boundary to art.

 

Steve


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#21 DMach

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Posted 17 July 2020 - 06:04 AM

Yeah, I'm about done with Astrobin after they lost 90% of my data. Too much work to restore. 

 

I recognize this result as coming from Pixinsight, I've seen it, forget at the moment...possibly too much deringing.

 

I won't claim my images are completely 'scientific', but this is crossing the boundary to art.

 

Steve

Sorry to hear you lost so much data ... miraculously, I didn't lose anything from what I can see. Very, very lucky.


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#22 SupernovaDust

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Posted 17 July 2020 - 08:21 AM

In other news, here's the current Image of the Day on Astrobin:

 

https://www.astrobin...f6t2oz/?nc=user

I'd like to have access to a 28" newton :D



#23 Pete Gorczynski

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Posted 17 July 2020 - 10:40 AM

I'd like to have access to a 28" newton laugh.gif

Wow. I just realized it was done with a scope having twice the resolution of a C14! No wonder why it looks so good.



#24 DMach

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Posted 18 July 2020 - 02:41 AM

I'd like to have access to a 28" newton :D


Indeed. Shouldn't need to overprocess so much with that aperture lol.


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