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ED80S fell on the floor

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#1 dUbeni

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 06:23 AM

Hi! I'm devastated. bawling.gif

After a long and beautiful day installing Parallax rotating rings and collimating the Vixen R200SS for the first time with Catseye tools, bad luck struck the ground. Actually while fixing the dew strip on my Vixen ED80S, f9, it got loose from the dovetail clamp and fell on the wooden floor. My heart jumped and a clamshell appeared on the lens. (lower right, next to the shim)

92 Vixen ED80S F9 clam shell

 

I'm not so worried with the small dent on the dew shield, or the plastic knob of the focuser, or even the tripod leg of my Porta II mount that was next to it, I'm worried about the lens collimation, it's a screw on cell without collimation screws. The tape marking the lens cell alignment moved a couple of millimeters in the wrong direction.

94 Alignment tape

 

I never really trusted this clamp it had given me a few scares before. When mounting the telescope in the dark sometimes it felt tight, but all of a sudden the spring jumps and the telescope gets loose, fortunately all those times I was right there behind to hold it, but not last time, I was on the opposite side of the telescope.

93 Clam shell culprit
 

What should I look for when testing on a star?

 

This is my most used telescope, and very hard to replace frown.gif

 

Bernardo



#2 Astroman007

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 07:31 AM

bawling.gifI'm really sorry. I know what it's like, though fortunately in my case there was zero damage inside or out. 

 

Your situation has my sincerest sympathies.


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#3 db2005

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 10:42 AM

Sorry to hear about your accident.

 

First, I would just perform a normal star test. You can do it in-doors with an artificial star for just checking the collimation. If everything looks normal, the optics survived without any damage to collimation.

 

If the scope turns out to have come out of collimation, I'd say there's a reasonable chance the lens cell merely skipped or crossed a few threads in the tube (judging from your description); trying to pull it back out or even unscrewing the lens cell again and screwing it back into the tube would be the first thing I would try.

 

But maybe more CN'ers with experience restoring damaged scopes can chime in as well.

 

I hope it all works out for you.


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#4 donadani

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 02:14 PM

Hi Bernardo, 

 

autsch! that hurts just by looking at the lens... flowerred.gif

 

Luckily those "old" ED´s from Vixen are relative robust reg. collimation. Worst case would be if there were some tensions within the glas and with loosing the big chip on one side those come free and ruin the form of the lens... but I think you should easily see it at a startest.

 

With such a big ding I would think there will be some coma because the lenses are nomore centered perfectly. 

 

I had some ED´s and FH´s from Vixen showing some coma when arriving here - with all helped a release of the locking ring (simply screwed, sometimes fixed with some glue), taking the lenses out and lay them carfully back into the cell. The cell (up to the ED130SS) is a simple cylinder from aluminium so you can not do much wrong here. After doing that all my scopes showed a perfect startest again and any coma was gone. If the looking ring is glued a drop of Aceton will loosen it.

 

Then you maybe can blacken the chip to avoid straylight and that´s it - hopefully waytogo.gif

 

Good luck!

 

cs

Chris

 

P.S. - maybe the locking ring is on the backside of you cell... ? then you have to unscrew it from the tube first... - but first of all I would do a startest... maybe everything is all right.


Edited by donadani, 19 July 2020 - 02:19 PM.

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#5 dUbeni

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 02:32 PM

Thank you guys,

When my heart stopped pounding I did remove the dew shield and lens cell, it threaded out almost normally, meaning that it came out altogether, cell and dew shield, I had to force a bit the dew shield to separate it from the cell. There are no cross threads on the cell, but some how it moves a couple of millimeters further when putting it back on.

I'm preparing for a star test tonight, although seeing is not great, I'm hopping to have a better evaluation of the disaster.

 

Wish me luck, I need it! This model is very hard to come by second hand.

 

Sincerely

Bernardo


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#6 Szumi

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 02:51 PM

I sure hope this works out okay.  I was sick to my stomach when I dropped an expensive eye piece on the concrete a couple months ago.



#7 dUbeni

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 08:00 PM

Hi!

The seeing was very poor tonight. I managed to observe Arcturus, alpha Boo, and my first impression is that its ok.

Observing with the 20mm ES68 I couldn't really see any aberrations, but at 36x with 2,2mm exit pupil it's hard to see if something is wrong.

Star testing with the 3,4mm Vixen HR (212x and 0.38mm EP)  I was able to see the clamshell inside and outside focus, the rings are still round and concentric with a bump as illustrated on the sketch below.

Star test Arcturo Alpha Boo 2020 07 19

I could only see the concentric rings for fleeting moments.

 

I do blame myself for this stupid accident, I knew the clamp was tricky and I should have double checked it's grip, but I was really tired and the telescope stayed in place. foreheadslap.gif foreheadslap.gif foreheadslap.gif  

I actually have bought a new side by side plate with better clamps, that I used on the previous night, but when I finished observing I opted to keep it on the old mount as usual.

 

I will put it aside until a better night comes along for a good star test.

 

Bernardo


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#8 gnowellsct

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 08:48 PM

It needs to go to the Vixen Spa for Rest and Rehabilitation.  They might make you a "reasonable deal" to get the scope working again.  Likely not for free, but likely less than a new one.  

 

Meantime you have another scope to keep you busy.  Consider getting a cheap 80mm replacement off Astromart to use while waiting, then sell the replacement once you have your 80mm f/9 back.

 

Good luck.

 

Greg N


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#9 dUbeni

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Posted 20 July 2020 - 09:19 AM

Hi! Szumi, been there, done that, although I think an eyepiece is always easier to replace, it doesn't prevent the heart from racing lol.gif  

 

Greg N, unfortunately I don't know of a Vixen SPA here in Europe, and getting a replacement at the moment is near impossible (my wallet is drained  bawling.gif ), and there aren't any 80mm /f9 out there, not even used.

Thanks anyway for your the encouragement bow.gif

 

I did a couple of tests this morning: first I checked the focuser alignment with a Howie Glatter laser on a parallizer, and it looked properly aligned; secondly I checked collimation with a Cheshire eyepiece, and here things changed, it's a bit off center, as can be seen on my sketch. It's not perfect but it closely matches the view through the Cheshire.

ED80S Cheshire view
 
Now! I've read on other threads that gently releasing the retainer ring and tapping the the cell and the lenses often align themselves. But I'm really concerned of doing this with a cracked lens. I've seen some topics on how to remove the lens (mainly for cleaning), What are the risks of doing it?
 
Bernardo

 


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#10 donadani

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Posted 20 July 2020 - 09:27 AM

Why will you open the lenscell? your startest looks good, so no need for that!

 

With a Cheshire you can only see if the lenscell is collimated to the tube - so to adress this you can loosen the lenscell a bit and fasten it again - maybe you can fix it within the threadplay.

 

But as I see you skeetch it´s nothing realy needed and you will see nothing of it in the eyepiece.


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#11 dUbeni

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Posted 20 July 2020 - 12:14 PM

Why will you open the lenscell? your startest looks good, so no need for that!

 

With a Cheshire you can only see if the lenscell is collimated to the tube - so to adress this you can loosen the lenscell a bit and fasten it again - maybe you can fix it within the threadplay.

 

But as I see you skeetch it´s nothing realy needed and you will see nothing of it in the eyepiece.

Thank you donadani for your explanation regarding the reading of the Cheshire sketch. It used to look like a shooting target wink.gif

I tried several small turns on the lens cell, but there was no change on the view of through the Cheshire.

I did remove the lens cell to figure witch lens of the doublet was chipped, I think it is the outer lens.

95 Vixen ED80S Inside lens cell
96 Vixen ED80S outside lens cell
 
Checking Meteoblue astronomical seeing forecast and Jetstream forecast I will probably have slightly better seeing near the weekend. I will perform another star test. Last evening when I moved to Vega clouds rolled in.
 
I'm still very sad bawling.gif
 
Bernardo


#12 dUbeni

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Posted 23 July 2020 - 07:07 AM

Hi! here is the result of last night star test on Vega:

Star test Vega Alpha Lyr 2020 07 23
The outside of focus sketch is less accurate than the others.
 

Seeing was poor, but better than on the previous test:

- On the inside focus image, on good moments, I could see all rings up to the central dot. There was no apparent color.

- The outside focus was more blur and with more purple that I used to see before.

- On the focus image there was no obvious color tint.

- On the defocused observations there were some scatter flares when seeing was agitated.

 

I think the flares are caused by the chipped lens.

 

Later I observed Jupiter, Saturn and Double double in Lyra, with the same eyepiece, Vixen 3.4mm HR @ 212x and an exit pupil of 0.38mm:

- Jupiter had obvious scatter, a lot more than I experienced before.

- Saturn had no apparent scatter, and looked almost sharp, but Cassini division was a bit blurred. Maybe it was seeing related.

- both doubles were split.

 

Tonight I will try to mask the chip on the lens with some black electrical tape, to see if the scatter goes away.

 

I do now have a less then perfect telescope, and feeling the pain of having to save for a suitable replacement. It may take years bawling.gif  

 

By the way, I emailed Vixen (Japan) and they quickly replied, feeling sorry for my misfortune, but they weren't able to help because this lens has been discontinued long time ago.

 

Clear skies

Bernardo


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#13 db2005

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Posted 24 July 2020 - 10:17 AM


Tonight I will try to mask the chip on the lens with some black electrical tape, to see if the scatter goes away.

 

I do now have a less then perfect telescope, and feeling the pain of having to save for a suitable replacement. It may take years bawling.gif  

Thanks for the follow-up post, it has been very eduational to see how you tested your scope, and although the test did not show what we all hoped (which would be no appreciable damage to optical performance), it may provide some valuable insights for others in similar situations.

 

As a candidate to replace your scope, you may want to take a look at a Vixen A80M, either new or second-hand, at a fraction of a more recently made replacement like an SD81S (also an excellent scope BTW). Yes the A80M is an achromat, but a very good one. And it looks good too.


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#14 dUbeni

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Posted 24 July 2020 - 11:50 AM

Hi! db2005,

I'm still at odds with the results. Last night I tried to perform another star test blocking the chipped part of the lens, but seeing was really bad (maybe between 1 and 3 on the Pickering scale).

97 Vixen ED80S blocking chipped lens
The underside of the tape has also a piece of tape to prevent glue accidents wink.gif
 

I didn't try to sketch the observations, the only remark I dare to mention is that maybe, and just maybe, scatter was lower while observing Jupiter.

I will wait for a better seeing night to do another star test.

 

The A80M and the ED81S were on my wish list until I found this used and very nice ED80S /f9, on good seeing nights the extra focal length gave me very good views on planets, moon, double stars and clusters.

This telescope was, and hopefully will be still my most used telescope on my inner city location. I will retire it if and when I can afford a equally nice refractor.

 

My question right now is: should I live with it as is or should I make an aperture mask of 72mm making it an f10? the widest part of the chipped lens is 4mm.

 

Clear skies

Bernardo



#15 Bowlerhat

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Posted 26 July 2020 - 02:37 AM

I have seen the square vixen dovetail clamp (from porta) floating around the market. It's also rather similar to twilight's 1. If you have the vixen mounting bar the middle part kinda clicks first- so it's always a double step for me to ensure it fits in. I think it'll be a good match to replace the clamps with those.



#16 dUbeni

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 07:29 AM

Hi! Bowlerhat,

I like your suggestion, and I'm going to replace that tricky clamp soon. I have a Baader clamp for Vixen type bars that also has a safety screw, so I'll use it.

Almost all of my dovetail bars are Vixen with a notch in the middle, with two exceptions: the new FL55SS and my R200SS that has a WO type plate with dovetail bar and I noticed yesterday that the safety screw barely touches the bar, another concern to solve.

 

Sincerely

Bernardo



#17 AdamJ

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 08:03 AM

You might find this to be a suitable replacement.

 

https://www.firstlig...-telescope.html

 

Adam


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#18 Bowlerhat

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 08:05 AM

Bernardo, 

 

I have seen the R200ss mounted with the vixen mounting bar too if you wish for safer option. Vixen bars are quite common to find. I thought you have the fl55s, as it also use that bar with rings. But alas modern ones only available on plates.

 

I wonder if it's possible to get back to vixen to get a replacement? 

such pity, that's such an immaculate lens condition.


Edited by Bowlerhat, 27 July 2020 - 08:06 AM.

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#19 dUbeni

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 10:19 AM

You might find this to be a suitable replacement.

 

https://www.firstlig...-telescope.html

 

Adam

Thanks Adam, it sure looks like a very nice option.

I'm still looking for a solution to salvage the ED80S. I know that I wan't be taking it anywhere because vibrations during travel may worsen the chipped lens.

 

Bowlerhat, I did email Vixen twice and they were sorry but unfortunately they no longer carry this lens replacement. With some patience I might find another used one, or a lovely FL80S like yours smile.gif

 

I do have the original dovetail and rings of the R200SS, but the Parallax rotating rings are very useful, and heavy, and need a large support. This telescope setup weighs around 12,5kg.

91 Vixen R200SS Parallax rotating rings And TV CC P2
 
Bernardo


#20 Hesiod

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 11:57 AM

That was very sadbawling.gif

I almost crashed the FL55ss the same day it was delivered to me because of a faulty clamp on the Polarie, and was just good luck that managed to grab it while was sliding down.

Anyway, have thought of painting black the chip itself?


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#21 dUbeni

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 12:07 PM

Thank you Alberto,

I vaguely though about it, but I don't know which type of paint to use and what should I cover? should it be just the chipped part or a bit more?

I still want to perform another star test, but I'll have to wait for better seeing, it has been lousy the past few days, Jupiter was trembling even with the 20mm ES68.

 

Bernardo



#22 Hesiod

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 12:28 PM

I was thinking to a marking pen with really fine tip, to cover the chip and its margins.

As far as my udnerstanding goes, the major issue is caused by the light scattered by (and in) the chip so, once got rid of that, the lens should keep delivering very nice views


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#23 gnowellsct

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 06:03 PM

 

Hi! Szumi, been there, done that, although I think an eyepiece is always easier to replace, it doesn't prevent the heart from racing lol.gif  

 

Greg N, unfortunately I don't know of a Vixen SPA here in Europe, and getting a replacement at the moment is near impossible (my wallet is drained  bawling.gif ), and there aren't any 80mm /f9 out there, not even used.

Thanks anyway for your the encouragement bow.gif

 

 

Bernardo

 

Go to the Vixen web site in Japan and send them a letter in English.  See what they say.  (I have done this)  Greg N


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#24 dUbeni

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Posted 28 July 2020 - 01:16 PM

Thanks gnowellsct, that was one of the first things I did, and they lamented my misfortune but aren't able to help because the lens is no longer produced.

 

CS

Bernardo 


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#25 gnowellsct

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Posted 28 July 2020 - 09:32 PM

Thanks gnowellsct, that was one of the first things I did, and they lamented my misfortune but aren't able to help because the lens is no longer produced.

 

CS

Bernardo 

Fourteen months ago some kids were racing on the street outside where I work and one decided to cut off the other, causing him to lose control of the vehicle and collide with a string of three cars.  In total, five cars were destroyed in this accident.  Three of us were inside at work.  

 

My car was one of those destroyed.  It was a 2014 Honda Accord in very good shape, with only 57k miles, and probably good for 150k more.  

 

The insurance company gave me $12000 and buying another one cost $22,000.

 

What I'm getting at here is that sometimes you just have to look at the smoking ruins and open your wallet and pay.  It sounds as if you have done all that may be done by way of appealing to those with expertise.  So now go out and buy a refractor.

 

Yah yah, go out and get the Vixen ED81s, or SD81, whatever they are calling it now.  f/7.7, 81mm.  Excellent color rendition and a sharp image.  You will be happy.

 

Greg N


Edited by gnowellsct, 28 July 2020 - 09:34 PM.



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