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Windows 2004 breaks common astro software?

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#1 Linwood

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Posted 01 August 2020 - 07:49 PM

Is anyone else already running Windows 10x64 on version 2004? 

 

I've been chasing what I thought was a hardware issue for a couple days, and on a whim decided to roll back the 2004 update and the issues just went away.

 

The problems were a combination of random USB disconnects (primarily on C type), and buffer overflow exceptions in both Stellarium and in APT while imaging.  And a couple times with phd2. 

 

I was convinced this was hardware, maybe some motherboard issue, but diagnostics showed nothing (well, it showed a predictive failure on my ssd, but no actual failure, so Dell is sending me a new drive but I'm convinced that will not fix anything). 

 

This morning just grasping at straws (and remembering it had been only a few days ago I upgraded) I rolled back 2004 and have been running APT and Stellarium continually, letting APT just sit and do random daytime exposures continually.   No errors.  Before one or the other would fail within a few minutes, probably at most 30 minutes. 

 

Obviously intermittent errors are difficult to pin down but.... Anyone else upgraded yet?  Any issues? 

 

Linwood

 

PS. This is on a Dell XPS15 laptop, I7-7700HQ, 32gb, m.2 SSD.  



#2 nebulasaurus

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Posted 01 August 2020 - 08:42 PM

Yes I have upgraded and have had no issues.

 

Spent last night gathering H-Alpha data with SGP, PHD2, ASTAP and SharpCap.  Used a SX Lodestar & QSI660 for imaging and an older ASI-120MM for polar alignment with sharpcap.

 

I spent a chunk of today gathering calibration data (Darks etc.)  The only issue I has then was a loose USB cable.

 

J.



#3 Jim Davis

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Posted 01 August 2020 - 08:43 PM

I upgrade to 2004 a while ago, and haven't had any issues. Stellarium had a couple of issues fixed in the latest upgrades, nothing to do with 2004. Astrophotography tool works just fine. This is on both my own laptop, as well as the ones that run at my club's observatory.



#4 Linwood

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Posted 01 August 2020 - 08:46 PM

Interesting.  I guess it's possible I have some hardware issue or feature that 2004 is triggering.  APT has been sitting there for hours just fine since I rolled back. 

 

Thanks for the feedback. 



#5 bignerdguy

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Posted 02 August 2020 - 03:08 PM

I have the same version of Win 10 and noticed something last night: my USB performance all the sudden has become abysmally slow.  I use MaximDL and up till last night, my auto-guider would run fast and i could download DSLR images AND do auto guiding on the fly all at the same time with the exact same setup i have now.  But last night, which was the first night i had time to do any imaging since the upgrade, the USB performance on my scope seems god awfully slow.  The Guider was taking its dear sweet time to expose and download and it would lock up the app each time it tried to read or download either from the DSLR or the Guider.  I don't know what is causing this, i eliminated every issue i could think of: Hub, Cables, settings, etc but nothing made any difference except in one case to make it work slower.  Funny part is, everything WORKED , but it was 10x slower than before. i wonder if they didn't replace or update the USB driver on my machine bundled in one of the more recent cumulative updates that is causing this issue?  I have an older hardware setup on this machine and except for this issue everything else works fine and dandy.  I am suspecting the USB driver was replaced by one of the recent cumulative service packs but will need to figure out which one and kill it.  Least i was able to get some shots of M33 last night but it took me till sunup to get enough and taking flat box flats when the sun is coming up was a lot of fun to manage...



#6 Linwood

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Posted 02 August 2020 - 03:18 PM

If it's the major 2004 update you can just roll it back and see if anything changes.  Takes 30 minutes or so but no user interaction.  I still have had zero issues since it rolled back.  Not 100% convinced since intermittent problems are... well, intermittent. But so far it's looking guilty. 



#7 bignerdguy

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Posted 02 August 2020 - 07:24 PM

If it's the major 2004 update you can just roll it back and see if anything changes.  Takes 30 minutes or so but no user interaction.  I still have had zero issues since it rolled back.  Not 100% convinced since intermittent problems are... well, intermittent. But so far it's looking guilty. 

Unfortunately for me its too late, you have 10 days and i already deleted the folders where this data is stored. i have seen some threads online talking about the superfetch service and two other services causing some of the issues if you have a USB drive attached.  i am going to try doing as they suggested and changing the settings to see if that was the issue.  My issue is simply how SLOW everything works when taking photos. It might be possible the superfetch service improvements have caused this to take way too much interrupt time away from the cameras.  i should mention they also talk about malware-bytes being part of the issue but that was supposed to be fixed in the latest version.  However as i use the freeware version, the ransomware protection they describe as the issue wasn't an issue for me as this is a premium edition feature only.  They also think antivirus software could do it but i did turn this off last night to see if it was the issue and it wasn't.  Found the following info on this Thread: https://answers.micr...2ebc21fd?page=2

 

"Open Control Panel, then open Administrative tools, right click on Services, and choose Run As Administrator. Locate these below:

1. Stopped and disabled SysMain service (this is the new name for SuperFetch as it was called in early versions).

2. MUST also do a stop and change the properties to manual on the Windows Media Player Network Sharing service too, IF running

3. Stop the Indexing Service and then change the properties to disabled. "

 

"NOTE: MUST also do a stop and change to manual on the Windows Media Player Network Sharing service too, IF running, BEFORE stopping and disabling Windows Search service, as the dependency will slow down the stop of Windows Search, and risk a Blue Screen 133 bug-check in DPC_WATCHDOG."



#8 Linwood

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Posted 02 August 2020 - 07:28 PM

I do have malwarebytes but only the free version that is run on demand, so it's not my issue.  Only other item is MS's Defender.   Indexing and media player?  Really?    MS is getting worse all the time on these updates. 



#9 Stelios

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Posted 02 August 2020 - 10:30 PM

Moving to Astronomy Software & Computers.

 

FWIW, I also have Win 10 v. 2004 installed and I ran Sharpcap, APCC, CDC and SGPro without any issues. 



#10 Linwood

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 08:33 AM

Moving to Astronomy Software & Computers.

 

FWIW, I also have Win 10 v. 2004 installed and I ran Sharpcap, APCC, CDC and SGPro without any issues. 

Thank you for rearranging, new here, didn't even see the "computer" part. 

 

I'm really torn now about re-installing 2004 to see if it starts failing again; I still have no errors since rolling it back.  Of course with a Dell laptop I have a bazillion dell specific drivers (even though I re-imaged from scratch and only used the necessary ones).  So could be some incompatibility there. 

 

The good/bad for me is during all this they found a predictive failure on the SSD so I need to re-image today anyway, so I'll be starting clean.  not even sure when I do so if I CAN avoid 2004, not sure what version MS now puts on the initial image, but will find out when the part arrives.  I'll report back if I learn anything useful.  Thanks again. 



#11 Michael Covington

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 08:36 AM

I upgraded a while back and have had no problems.



#12 Linwood

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 10:20 PM

well, I have bad news and good news.

 

The good news is apparently I was not crazy.

 

The bad news is now I can't fix it. 

 

Dell thought I had a bad SSD drive, so sent a new one.  I wiped it and reinstalled windows from scratch from Microsoft's USB drive build, and... it installed 2004.  Now I can't roll back.

 

And sure enough, Stellarium (which was running perfectly after my last rollback) is now aborting.  So far APT is working, but before it only aborted while running a photo session.

 

It's almost certainly something specific to this computer configuration, but that it came back after a 100% wipe and reinstall of windows... 

 

What's interesting in Stellarium dying (before it even comes up) is it's not even set up to communicate with anything.  It was a virgin install and never been run or configured.   I de-installed and re-installed -- still won't launch. 

 

I'm not suggesting Stellarium is broken.  But I am suggesting there's something about 2004 on my Dell XPS15.   So if you have one, be aware and test thoroughly after update. 



#13 Michael Covington

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 10:30 PM

Try Stellarium with a different graphics option.  Under Stellarium in the Start Menu, you'll find ANGLE and MESA.  It's quite possible that a problem with the way Stellarium accesses your graphics hardware was exposed by a small change in Windows.

I have several computers that only run Stellarium ANGLE, not plain Stellarium.  The program is *exactly* the same except that it accesses the graphics hardware differently.

If you can reinstall your original SSD drive, that might make this quicker and simpler.


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#14 Linwood

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 10:40 PM

Try Stellarium with a different graphics option.  Under Stellarium in the Start Menu, you'll find ANGLE and MESA.  It's quite possible that a problem with the way Stellarium accesses your graphics hardware was exposed by a small change in Windows.

I have several computers that only run Stellarium ANGLE, not plain Stellarium.  The program is *exactly* the same except that it accesses the graphics hardware differently.

If you can reinstall your original SSD drive, that might make this quicker and simpler.

Now that's interesting.

 

Stellarium (nothing after) - aborts

Stellarium Direct3D 11 mode - works fine

Stellarium Angle Mode - works fine

Stellarium Mesa Mode - Aborts

Stellarium with OpenGL Diagnostics - Aborts

Stellarium with Spout Sender - aborts 

 

That gives me a way to run that program but won't help if APT still aborts mid-way in an imaging session.  I'll test that tomorrow -- I'm annoyed that I'm working on my PC and it is unexpectedly clear tonight and I'm not outside.  Plus I'm tired.  Going to crash myself, and see if inspiration strikes tomorrow. 

 

The laptop has to GPU's, an on-chip Intel and an separate Nvidia. If I try to force it to use one or the other it makes no difference.  So (unless that option doesn't really switch) it seems unlikely to be the GPU's driver.  I guess I'd be surprised if APT uses the GPU (of course I do not KNOW that APT is going to fail -- tomorrow will find out). 

 

Thanks for the pointer.  I'm not quite sure what it tells me, but all info is useful. 



#15 Michael Covington

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 10:57 PM

If nothing else, you have a good way to run Stellarium.  

I am wondering if APT is also having a graphics problem.  Maybe new graphics drivers?  Maybe roll back graphics drivers to what they were before Windows 2004 (which should be possible)?



#16 gzotti

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 06:23 AM

Did you install all graphics (OpenGL) drivers for both Intel and NVidia? Do they work well together with other programs? I am rather surprised to read it aborts when used with Mesa mode, which circumvents any 3D hardware. It may become annoyingly slow, but should work everywhere. At least V0.20.2.

We had some reports about failing graphics (but rather crazy artifacts, not crashes) on some systems (including one Dell!) after Win10 2004 updated the Intel GPU drivers, but can probably do nothing about it, Intel has to fix that.

You can force your system to use the NVidia for Stellarium in the NVidia GPU settings panel, but you need working OpenGL drivers for that.

 

Using APT with Stellarium needs a configured plugin. Follow instructions that come with APT.



#17 bignerdguy

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 08:07 AM

If i remember correctly the new 2004 update also includes an Intel graphics driver improvement.  looks like it isn't so improved after all.  let me see if  can dig up the article i read...



#18 bignerdguy

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 08:14 AM

I was wrong, its Nvidia drivers it has an issue with, specifically older drivers.  here is the scoop and link:

 

Issue with older drivers for Nvidia display adapters (GPU)
Nvidia and Microsoft have found incompatibility issues with certain versions of Nvidia display adapter drivers and Windows 10, version 2004 (the Windows 10 May 2020 Update). Windows 10 devices with affected Nvidia display driver versions might receive a stop error with a blue screen or other issues during or after installing the update to Windows 10, version 2004. The affected drivers are any version lower than 358.00.

To safeguard your update experience, we have applied a compatibility hold on Windows 10 devices with affected Nvidia display drivers drivers installed from being offered Windows 10, version 2004 or Windows Server, version 2004 until the driver has been updated.

Affected platforms:
Client: Windows 10, version 2004
Server: Windows Server, version 2004
Workaround: To mitigate this issue, you will need to check with your device manufacturer (OEM) to see if an updated driver is available and install it.

Next steps: Microsoft is working on a resolution and estimate a solution will be available in mid-August.

Note We recommend that you do not attempt to manually update using the Update now button or the Media Creation Tool until the safeguard is removed.

 

 

https://docs.microso...ZCNa6FMCLee3HvA


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#19 bignerdguy

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 08:15 AM

There is also this(missed this a moment ago):

 

Variable refresh rate not working as expected on devices with Intel iGPU
Intel and Microsoft have found incompatibility issues when using a monitor with Variable refresh rate (VRR) plugged into an Intel integrated graphics processing unit (iGPU) display adapter and Windows 10, version 2004 (the Windows 10 May 2020 Update). Enabling VRR on affected devices will not enable the VRR for games using Direct X 9.

To safeguard your update experience, we have applied a compatibility hold on Windows 10 devices with affected drivers or firmware from being offered Windows 10, version 2004.

Affected platforms:
Client: Windows 10, version 2004
Resolution: This issue was resolved in KB4568831. The safeguard hold is estimated to be removed in mid-August.

Note We recommend that you do not attempt to manually update using the Update now button or the Media Creation Tool until the safeguard is removed.


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#20 Linwood

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 08:42 AM

If nothing else, you have a good way to run Stellarium.  

I am wondering if APT is also having a graphics problem.  Maybe new graphics drivers?  Maybe roll back graphics drivers to what they were before Windows 2004 (which should be possible)?

Yeah, it's a symptom, not the real issue.  I'm seeing lots of gremlins at the moment. I need to work slowly through whether I have real hardware issues (swapping stuff, trying on a different system) vs OS issues, vs regular software issues (as above with the arrows).  Most of the USB side is new to go with a new telescope. 
 
I'm really not convinced, despite the different modes of Stellarium that fail/work, that it is a GPU issue.  Don't ask me to justify that statement, but decades of software development, I think those are just changing the path and/or memory or something.  The error is BEX64 error, which is pretty generic (buffer overflow) in Stackhash_ac46 which shows up in lots and lots of reports for many years as errors, so it's really generic.
 

Did you install all graphics (OpenGL) drivers for both Intel and NVidia? Do they work well together with other programs? I am rather surprised to read it aborts when used with Mesa mode, which circumvents any 3D hardware. It may become annoyingly slow, but should work everywhere. At least V0.20.2.
We had some reports about failing graphics (but rather crazy artifacts, not crashes) on some systems (including one Dell!) after Win10 2004 updated the Intel GPU drivers, but can probably do nothing about it, Intel has to fix that.
You can force your system to use the NVidia for Stellarium in the NVidia GPU settings panel, but you need working OpenGL drivers for that.
 
Using APT with Stellarium needs a configured plugin. Follow instructions that come with APT.

I installed all the drivers from Dell's site as a starting point, since if I still had a hardware issue I was more likely to get their help that way. 

 

Note I am not trying to get APT and Stellarium to work together (yet).  In fact since the windows rebuild all I've done with APT is get it to connect to the iOptron commander (then spent an hour finding out the arrow keys are not SUPPOSED to work, haven't for years, without forcing different drive rates; sigh). 

 

But since I can't get it to fail Dell's diagnostics (and they won't help unless you do, really), I think I'm going to see if Intel has revised chipset drivers or HD graphics drivers.

 

To the above question about rolling back -- since I did the install with a fresh copy of windows as opposed to windows update, I can't roll back anything any more.  I do (for a couple days at least until I have to return it) have the old SSD and could get back to that O/S version that way.  But I already know -- neither APT nor Stellarium fail there.   And it's got all the same Dell drivers (a necessary condition to get Dell to swap the drive). 



#21 Linwood

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 09:25 AM

@bignerdguy, thanks for those two pointers (won't clutter with quoting them). 

 

So there's another piece of the puzzle I should have pursued earlier.  I spend 98% of my time on the laptop via an RDP session from my desktop, even when observing I typically come inside and monitor it that way.  So most of my testing was that way also. 

Well... Stellarium (no special type) runs fine directly on the laptop, and fails in the RDP session.   I'm not sure how (if) the GPU's interact with the remote display adapter driver. 

 

So I downloaded the Intel driver assistant and it says everything is up to date on the Intel side. 

 

The Nvidia driver I'm running is somewhere around 442.59 (for reasons unclear it identifies with a different number 26.21.14.4270 but the date approximately matches the nvidia site for 442.59, a side effect of going through dell perhaps).  Latest is 451.77 so I grabbed a copy and installed.  No change.

 

The second thing  you found about VRR monitors likely doesn't apply (I have a NEC photo editing monitor without VRR), but it did lead to a bunch of fixes pending release that are in the preview update (KB4568831).  So to see if anything pending would help I installed that (I mean -- worst case at this point I just wipe and start over again)... No change. 

 

I need to get the whole setup wired in with two cameras and test to see what works with APT.  I think chasing an issue that is RDP specific may not be worthwhile, at least until I see if APT has an issue, and if it's RDP specific.  Unfortunately before it usually took 60-90 minutes before APT died.  So breakfast first, then I'll set everything up and do a test run.  I just got my spike-a-flat and want to test it out anyway with a set of exposures.

 

Re RDP: I could always use VNC or Teamviewer or similar, I realize that.  I prefer to keep the MS native version when I can, one less 3rd party to be involved.  Or I could just pull up my big boy pants and stay outside in the heat, bugs and humidity at night.  shocked.gif   

 

My Biggest concern is to make sure none of these are symptoms of a hardware issue. 

 

My second biggest is, if they are just OS specific, to make sure I know what they all are in daylight to avoid at night. 

 

Thanks... more later... Linwood



#22 tcchittyjr

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 11:44 AM

It is generally recommended on laptops with on board GPUs to use the laptop vendor's driver, not the driver from the GPU manufacturer. Maybe that will help?

 

TomC



#23 Linwood

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 11:52 AM

It is generally recommended on laptops with on board GPUs to use the laptop vendor's driver, not the driver from the GPU manufacturer. Maybe that will help?

Sorry, it probably got lost in the above, but I tried that first.

 

Incidentally I'm on about image 30 (I was doing 120s before, so doing them now) and ATP is going fine.  So maybe that's stable now.   Though I am using a different USB hub than I was before -- after a bit more going back to the original.  Though I have a pegasus powerbox advance coming in a couple days to replace all this.  I'm thinking a powered hub might work better (though my imaging camera has its own battery, I think it does draw power when it can get it).

 

I didn't have PHD2 running so far, I also just started it, so at the moment (other than it is not guiding, just looping) I have everything going that was going outside last time.


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#24 Linwood

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 03:34 PM

So in continuing to dig, and to prove the Murphy is a real PITA, I also appear to have a failing USB C port.  I do not think that is Windows 2004, but hardware.  Emphasis on "think".  It is intermittent.   So that may well also be contributing to my issues since at least some failures (notably APT) might have been induced by USB issues.   Maybe.  Dell contacted.  The saga continues.... Murphy does not want  me to do astronomy -- there must be something secret hidden in the skies above me.  I'm getting more determined!


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#25 Michael Covington

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 03:53 PM

Maybe the USB port is slightly out of specification (weak signal, low voltage, etc.) so that it works much of the time with many devices but not all of the time with all.




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