20 replies to this topic

[Dinosour23]

Hi there ! 

 

I am asking observers with higher end 10x50's and 10x70's, could you describe M42 and M45  via each of the apertures from your suburban skies ? 

Trying to decide between a new mid range 11X70 and a really good older 10x50.

I had tons of binoculars, but never good ones, always stuff I got for 20 dollars at the used market.

 

100% Handholding intention, I will never mount a binocular.

 

Mark the vintage Master already gave me some hot tips, but I wanted to run the question by the club before I pull the triggers

Considering I am out of the states, and shipping alone is 100$ in coronatimes, so I want to get it right the first time

 

Stay safe friends ! 

Edited by Dinosour23, 06 August 2020 - 05:11 AM.

[Jon Isaacs]

This is what I can offer:

 

I have a pair of Orion UltraView 10x50s.  These are good quality ($175) Japanese binoculars.  They were made in Japan, they operate at the full 50mm aperture, they have a 6.5 degree AFoV and plenty of eye relief for me.  They weigh about 2 pounds. 

 

I also have a pair of Orion Resolux 10.5x70's.  These are $400 binos, Astro-Physics sold them, they're the same as the Obserwerk Ultras.  They are Chinese, operate at the full 70mm aperture, they have a 5.0 degree field of view and plenty of eye relief for me.  They weigh 5.5 pounds. 

 

Exactly what suburban skies means, I am not sure.  By the Bortle scale, my backyard measures on the SQM-L between the Bortle 6 and 7, overhead is generally about 18.5 mpsas.  I also view from much darker skies.

 

All that said:

 

The 10.5 x 70 are hand holdable but they are heavy, they're not something I would want to use as my main binoculars unmounted. 10x50s are much easier on the arms. 

 

Also, what is your dark adapted pupil?  The 11x70s provide a 6.4mm exit pupil.  If your dark adapted pupil is close to 5mm, the 11x70s may not be any brighter than the 10x50s.  My dark adapted pupil is somewhat larger than 7mm. 

 

As far as what I see:  The 10.5x70s definitely go deeper, I see more stars and I nebulae are brighter.  A good example is M-6 and M-7, they're just more detailed.  M45 is similar.  I can really accurately describe what I see in terms of M42, I see more, it's brighter but I have seen M42 so many times and very often in quite large aperture scopes so it's relative. 

 

The trade off is the weight and the narrower field of view. Roaming the skies with a 6.5 degree field has its own charm, brings to it something more.

 

- I also have a pair of 15x70 Orion Resoluxs.  These offer a 4.4 degree field with a 4.7mm exit pupil.  I use these considerably more than the 10.5x70s, that extra magnification really brings things out.  I can hand hold them but again, not for a long time. 

 

I think everyone needs a good pair of 10x50s, they are just so versatile.  And then on top of that, 15x70s are a nice step up.

 

Jon 

[Dinosour23]

Thanks so much for the great reply ! Just the description I was looking for. I love this place

 

Those Ultraviews look so good ! Where can I get them nowadays ? 

 

Oh, and can you easily view Jupiters moons and notice the disc-shape of saturn with a 10x50 or does it take effort and focus ? 

I aimed my USSR 10x50's at Jupiter  and I really had to be fully dark-adapted and focus hard to view a couple moons, took a lot of straining. 

Edited by Dinosour23, 06 August 2020 - 07:20 AM.

[Jon Isaacs]

Hi:

 

Unfortunately, the Ultraviews are no longer made in Japan.  They are less expensive now but I called Orion and they said they were now made in China.  This is not necessarily a bad thing but it's not a good thing.  

 

I would say, I can see the moons of Jupiter and see something of Saturn's disk shape but that is really a job for a telescope. 

 

Jon

[edwincjones]

 

 

........100% Handholding intention, I will never mount a binocular...........

 

 

 

then get  50mms

70mms need a mount for many/most

 

edj

[Cestus]

You could compromise and get a monopod. A 70 mm would work on one of those.

[sg6]

Being honest, Poor.

10x was never enough to make M42 amount to much.

The aperture gives a little more of the nebula but the "more" is the faint stuff that smaller apertures have difficulty with. It doesn't suddenly brighten to astounding levels. More that you can make out a bit more whispy stuff.

 

10x and aperture works well on M45, but in my experience not much on M42.

[Dinosour23]

What about summer milky way sweeping, or lunar views, what would be the advantage of 10mm and 70mm aperture ?

[Jon Isaacs]

What about summer milky way sweeping, or lunar views, what would be the advantage of 10mm and 70mm aperture ?

 

If the skies are dark, sweeping the summer milky way will be great in both.  The moon should be more detailed in the 70mm but your eye will not be dilated in either so neither one will be operating at a full aperture.

 

That assumption is that you can actually hand hold the 70mm binoculars.  I can hand hold my 70mm binoculars for short periods, maybe a minute.  Then I want to rest my arms for a moment.  Then I will look again.  It's a cycle that repeats but it's not something I would do for an hour.

 

Jon

[KennyJ]

To be honest, and without wishing to come across as in any way "smart" or "critical", I sense just the way this question has been asked indicates a possible over emphasis on aperture over magnification.

 

When it comes to what can be seen through hand -held binoculars, the old adage "aperture rules" is not so clear cut as the majority of astronomy related publications over at least the past half century would appear to indicate.

 

Under very dark skies the differences will be far more noticeable than under suburban skies.

 

Under my own "suburban skies" I honestly don't see a huge amount of difference between what I can see through my 10x42 binoculars than I can through my 10x50, but I definitely see more through my 10x42 than through my 7x50, in spite of the 42mm model having a full degree less of sky within it's viewing circle.

 

Kenny

[Dinosour23]

Thanks Kenny and Jon ! 

 

I must say, I won't have the time to travel to the dark sites anymore... So maybe you're right.

 

Do you think a 12x50 would serve me better for suburban skies ? Meaning we are 15 miles from Tel Aviv, Israel so it's no dark site  

 

They sell the Pentax/Nikon PCF 12X50 for 200 dollars new, Would you get one of those before the 70mm offerings ? 

[KennyJ]

Dino,

 

One thing about binoculars is that different people have either different levels of "ability to hold steady" or different interpretations of what they consider to be steady, or both.

 

For myself, if you excuse the pun, I find 50mm binoculars "handier" to hand-hold for longer periods than I do 70mm units.

 

I also find 12x a magnification just slightly too high to claim to be able to hold steady enough for long enough periods.

 

What I mean by that is that I know the difference in the steadiness of 12x views between hand-held and mounted is sufficient to be not only noticeable, but significant and frustrating.

 

If this were not the case, something like a 12x50 with a 5 degree TFOV, like the old Nikon SE Porro would probably be my favourite size / mag combination binocular for all round hand - held use.

 

Alas, there is little point in just wishing or pretending that to be the case in reality -- because it isn't - at least not for me.

 

It may prove to be fine for you.

 

As with many things, the best way to find out is to try for yourself.

 

Good luck!

Kenny

[Dinosour23]

I know, wish I could... Have to arrange a 100$ delivery no matter what I choose hence the forum questions.

 

Thanks fellas, I have the info I need

[SMark]

I have proved to myself that I cannot hand-hold a 10x50 without frustration due to my hands shaking. However, I can hand-hold my 10x70 with much less frustration. I support the binocular by holding at the very end of the 70mm barrels, just under the objectives. It works very well for me. Doing the same with a 10x50 is still quite shaky. So while I have both binoculars, I use the 10x70 hand-held much more often, and am quite happy with it.

[Rich V.]

As already pointed out, a 12x50 can go deeper and show a darker background sky but is harder to hold steady. 

 

If you can arrange to view seated from a reclining lounge chair that will buy you some steadiness.  Some CN members even enjoy 15/16x70x from a seated position but for me, I don't like the inevitable loss of detail the shakes cause at that magnification.  A 12x50 lends itself well to use with a tall monopod, though, from a standing position or seated with the monopod tilted back and planted on the ground or clamped between your ankles.  Even keeping the monopod short and planting its foot into the chair or your waist area while sitting provides considerably more steadiness than hand holding.

 

Just some thoughts...

 

Rich

[KennyJ]

Whatever kind of "support system" is chosen, for me, just as important as the images being steadier is finding a way so as not to be actually holding binoculars in your hands.

 

Totally Arm - Ache - Free ( AAF ) is a goal well worth aiming for, whichever option is selected, which is one of the reasons I'm not as satisfied with image stabilised binoculars as a "total solution" as many appear to be.

 

Just for the record, another reason is I don't like binoculars with exit pupils less than 4mm, which practically all apart from Canon 10x42 happen to have.

 

Kenny

[Dinosour23]

I hear that Kenny !  

What kind of binoculars do you keep on the shelf nowadays  Kenny ?   

Edited by Dinosour23, 08 August 2020 - 06:05 AM.

[KennyJ]

Dino,

 

My options these days are restricted to the following:

 

Helmsman 7x50 Marine

Nikon 10x42 SE

Swift Kestrel 10x50

Komz 12 x 40

Helios Observation 15 x70

Strathspey 20 x90

 

All Porros!

[Dinosour23]

You know what, I used to have the KOMZ 12X40 (the early ones with the short body and the large eyepiece).

While it was literally NOS from the 70's, the collimation was way off and it showed double stars and moon ghosting, have you noticed the same ?   My god though, it was as sharp as a razor, scary image during the day ! 

 

I wonder how it performs next to your SE. 

Edited by Dinosour23, 08 August 2020 - 07:27 AM.

[KennyJ]

Dino,

 

My 1976 KOMZ 12 x40 shows no sign of misalignment, and as you say, provides sharp images in daylight.

 

What I don't particularly like about it is the short eye - relief, hard eyecups, sub 3.5mm exit-pupil and stiff, clunky focuser.

Also, I find 12x magnification just a touch too high for hand-held use.

 

I would probably have considered it brilliant if I'd owned it in 1976, but the SE has spoilt me, and I only acquired the KOMZ after getting the Nikon.

 

Kenny

[Cestus]

I use my 12x50 on a monopod and that works pretty well. I can't hold if for long without shaking. The exception is if I am seated and leaning back in a stable position.