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Finally got Fujinon HB 12x60 beauty ...wait Oh NO

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#1 Milos1977

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Posted 07 August 2020 - 03:28 PM

Last night I received what appeared to be pristine condition Fujinon HB 12x60 from original owner for a very good price. These are not that easy to find, and they got great reviews before, as well as this year.

I was excited to finally get these 12x binoculars that I have been seeking for a while now. It came inside Fujinon mini-backpack like soft case with all the lens caps. Soft case was bubble wrapped and shipped in a cardboard box.  

 

Not a sign of scratch or damage anywhere on the body. I felt all the moving parts to get the feel if anything is wrong and looked at all the glass. All appeared actually perfect under the light I was at the moment. Then I saw a line that I didn't want to believe it was a crack. Horrible feeling and sight of irreparable fault. It could not be! Yes, it is. 99.999% sure it is. **** it had to happen after all the good luck with many used binoculars I sent and received for years. It had to happen with this one. The owner is very communicative and claims that has never seen this line before. 

 

I checked it against few stars that emerged finally through clouds at 2am, and the Moon. Image appears to be perfect, but seeing was not great, and I was shot by that time.  That line/crack did not apparently shift anything and is not affecting the image that I can tell. I will still check it though as clouds only started clearing after 2am last night and I was burned up tired after a long drive home last evening. 

 

It looks like pressure crack probably due to bump in the shipping. It was packed about 90% well, ...a bit skinny with bubble wrap. I guess packing the bino thats inside a mini "backpack" is easy to miss judge. 

 

I am in contact with Fujinon service tech who called me back after 20min of me leaving a message, and requested photos which I sent them. He responded that they will asses the procedure and part needed to replace the cracked lens and cost involved more or less before I ship it there. I was very happy with Fujinon service response today over the phone and email. 

 

I realize that this might not be cost effective repair, and I might be stuck with this, but Im giving it a shot to find out at least. 

 

Any ideas, tests or suggestions are very welcome. 

Attached Thumbnails

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Edited by Milos1977, 07 August 2020 - 11:13 PM.


#2 mtminnesota

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Posted 07 August 2020 - 05:09 PM

Are you sure it's a crack?  It's hard to be sure, of course, but to me it looks like a scratch or maybe a deposit of some material that was scraped against the glass.


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#3 Rich V.

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Posted 07 August 2020 - 06:45 PM

I could certainly be wrong but I agree that it doesn't look like a crack, more a surface scratch or even a filament of dried glue.  It also appears to me to be on the second, moving lens assy, not the objective lens, if I'm seeing things right.

 

It may not affect the views much at all, actually, but getting it assessed by Fuji is a good start.

 

Rich


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#4 Milos1977

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Posted 07 August 2020 - 06:59 PM

Yep, pretty sure unfortunately. If you look at it closely it looks like if you were to  scratch clear ice or some super hard plastic with surgical blade. Its too perfect and appears to have sparkly edges in certain areas of the line (micro chips along the edge). 

That being said, it is a weird one. I have seen cracks like that on drinking glasses that happen from sudden temperature shifts. 

 

Storm, cloudy nights, and a scratch in awesome optics.



#5 Milos1977

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Posted 07 August 2020 - 07:07 PM

@ RichV

 

I certainly wish I am wrong! It would have to be a miracle for anything else to produce such looking line. 

 

Its is on the front surface of the inner round lens element. It is about 2-3" behind objective elements. You can see from the top photo that it originates from the outside edge where it is held by black ring and goes towards the center about 1/3 of the way in. 

 

It looks too expressed to be just a scratch.


Edited by Milos1977, 07 August 2020 - 11:16 PM.


#6 Foss

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Posted 07 August 2020 - 07:53 PM

Was the package insured, have you contacted the seller, or did you buy via PayPal where you have a guarantee? Hoping for you that there might be some relief to be had.


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#7 Milos1977

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Posted 07 August 2020 - 10:42 PM

No it was not insured. I didn't ask for it. Definitely lesson learned there. Too many lucky exchanges in the past I guess. Seller is communicating very well, but claiming that unit shipped in perfect condition. I don't have reason not to believe him at this point as it looks and so far seems to work very well. Clowdy nights though. Yes I paid via paypal with seller fees involved (not gift). I will wait for response from Fujinon service next week. 

In the mean time waiting for clear sky to test more. 

 

The binocular is a beast of a 12x in a way, but so well shaped and balanced. A bit lighter and easier to hold and smoother to operate than Poro design Oberwerk 15x70 Deluxe which is about 20% heavier. Both give very strong heavy feel in hands, but not too heavy like Ultras/Resolux class, ..more like confident and stable kind of heavy and very nice to hold for at least 60sec. 

 

Fujinon produces visibly brighter image than Oberwerk which is expected at 5mm exit pupil vs 4.6mm of 15x70 Deluxe, and carries a bit more contrast in low light with that as well. It really looks great so far! Tested against trees, and red and brown brick wall at night at 30m and 100m distance. . Also a a step up in quality across the field of view by my limited judgement so far. I do need clear sky to test and compare properly of coarse. 

 

p.s.

Does anyone know what these Fujinons HB were priced at when they were available for sale new?


Edited by Milos1977, 07 August 2020 - 11:20 PM.


#8 Foss

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Posted 08 August 2020 - 08:52 AM

Company 7 listed them at 685 when available.

http://www.company7....on/pricing.html

Looks like you might have a safety net with PayPal in case you need it.



#9 Pinac

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Posted 08 August 2020 - 09:45 AM

I paid € 820.- for mine (they were new, but alrady discounted).

 

My guess is that for astro, the crack will only affect the image on very bright objects like the moon, probably not even on Mars or Jupiter. During daylight, sunlight falling onto the objective lenses may create reflections, otherwise, as Rich (post #3) mentioned, it might not be too bad (I could be totally mistaken, of course).

 

But I fully understand how you feel about it.

 

Pinac


Edited by Pinac, 08 August 2020 - 09:53 AM.


#10 dries1

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Posted 09 August 2020 - 05:21 PM

Could that blemish be separation, of internal prisms/lens, based on the photos.

 

Andy W.


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#11 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 09 August 2020 - 06:55 PM

To my eye, it doesn't look like a crack. A crack that long in glass would be all the way through the glass element. For a crack to grow in length, it can't just be on the surface, there actually has to be a displacement and tip. That can't happen just on the surface of a brittle material.  The through thickness nature of the crack should be easy to see.

 

Fracture mechanics wasn't my strong point but in my 30 years in materials science research, I saw a great number of fractures in a variety of materials and that just doesn't look like a fracture. 

 

Jon


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#12 gunut

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Posted 09 August 2020 - 09:24 PM

for what its worth....it looks like scratch to me too ....but scratch or crack they would have to replace the lenses to fix the problem 


Edited by gunut, 09 August 2020 - 09:25 PM.

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#13 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 09 August 2020 - 10:04 PM

for what its worth....it looks like scratch to me too ....but scratch or crack they would have to replace the lenses to fix the problem 

 

If it's a scratch, there's little chance it will grow and the effect on the image is likely zero. Repairing it would be a "it doesn't bother the image but it bothers me" thing.

 

If it's a crack, then it may grow.

 

Personally, I don't worry about such things, particularly at large exit pupils like this. It's more an issue of accepting a tiny flaw than how it affects the image.

 

Jon



#14 Milos1977

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Posted 09 August 2020 - 10:46 PM

@ Jon Isaac 

I agree with you, and Im taking yet another close look at it. I gave it my best shot to take better photos to share with all. 

I agree about fractures. Although they can have abrupt stop, they must go all the way through the thickness to the opposite surface, specially in objects of these proportions. I am looking at a very strange thing on this lens. 

I admit, but it does not look like anything but scratch or crack. It appears to be on front surface only, and reflection is visible on its opposite surface (or something else) I appreciate everyones input on this. I wish I photo could take sharpness and sparkliness of the detail of this "scratch". 

I was lucky to get it for $375 shipped, 

Here are better shots if it makes any difference. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20200809_232023.jpg

Edited by Milos1977, 09 August 2020 - 10:47 PM.


#15 Milos1977

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Posted 09 August 2020 - 10:48 PM

Here are two more as I could not upload all three.

Attached Thumbnails

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Edited by Milos1977, 09 August 2020 - 10:48 PM.


#16 Milos1977

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Posted 09 August 2020 - 10:49 PM

and one more

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20200809_232118.jpg


#17 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 10 August 2020 - 05:38 AM

Milos:

 

It is difficult to image that it's a scratch unless it has been there for quite sometime.  It doesn't look like a crack.

 

What I would do:

 

I would send a link to this thread, particularly the latest pictures to Cory Suddarth and ask him what he thinks it is.  

 

https://www.cloudyni...-cory-suddarth/

 

https://suddarthoptical.com/

 

Edit:  I sent a PM to Cory asking him to take a look at the photos. 

 

Jon



#18 MellonLake

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Posted 10 August 2020 - 06:08 AM

I do a lot of failure analysis of glass and have reviewed the above images.  Generally, in glass fractures you will get a reflection off of the fracture surfaces.  Basically the newly created surfaces reflect light.  These surfaces should be pretty visible in your images because they are at a high angle to the incident light (light reflects rather than transmits at high angles of incidence).   However, I do not see any reflections off of fracture surfaces in the images above.  I do see internal reflections of the defect off of the air glass surfaces.  This leads me to believe this is some thing on the lens (scratch/debris) rather than a fracture. 

 

To better determine if it is a fracture, I would put a light up through the eyepiece and then image from the objective end at the highest angle you can to see if light reflects of of the fracture surfaces (as close to looking in from the side that you can).  

 

Based on the geometry of the defect, if it is a fracture, it is driven by thermal differences.   It is unlikely that this would be a manufacturing defect because the lens would have been cut out of a larger sheet of glass which would make the geometry of any internal strain defects unlikely to be radial.   Additionally I would have expected the glass to be well annealed given it is being used for optics.  I also don't think the glass could get hot enough and the cool rapidly enough to cause a radial fracture during use or shipping.   

 

If it is a fracture, it is also unlikely to be the result of an impact to the binos.  Impacts generally result in compression fractures that look like scallop shells at the impact point and if the fracture radiates into the glass it does not tend to arrest but travel through the entire glass section until it gets to another free surface.  Neither of these features is present.   

 

You noted that you did not see any issues when looking at stars as well.  If this was a fracture, it would be expected that very bright stars would produce a ghostly double image of the bright star due to reflections off of the fracture surfaces (especially if the star is off axis).  As this was not noted and again this suggests that the defect is not a fracture.   

 

I am leaning towards this being a scratch or some type of coating defect.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Rob


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#19 Foss

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Posted 10 August 2020 - 09:22 AM

You probably already tried this, but if it's a simple external scratch you should be able to feel it by running a fingernail across it.


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#20 Milos1977

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Posted 10 August 2020 - 10:26 AM

Thank you John Isaac, and MellonLake. I will blast some light from the back end and inspect/photograph. 

 

Foss, Its not on objective glass, its element inside. I would open it and touch but due to objective alignment and nitrogen gas thats last resort only if I ever have to. 


Edited by Milos1977, 10 August 2020 - 11:32 AM.


#21 Erik Bakker

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Posted 10 August 2020 - 11:22 AM

Thank you John Isaac, and MellonLake. I will blast some light from the back end and inspect/photograph. 

 

Foss, Its not on objective glass, its element inside. I would open it and touch but due to objective alignment and nitrogen gas thats last resort only if I eve have to. 

If the images are fine, leave it as is. Or send it to an EXPERT to fix it. That would cost you though and it's up to you if the expense would be worth the cure.


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#22 slingworks

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Posted 10 August 2020 - 11:51 AM

Maybe not relevant, but some time back I had a pair of Swift 8x32 ultralite porros that came from Swift with 2 heavy deep scratches on the INSIDE of the objectives.

 

Could have just left Fujinon that way.   Unless you can see an effect that is bothersome, I'd just use them as they are and not let it eat you.


Edited by slingworks, 10 August 2020 - 11:52 AM.

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#23 Milos1977

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Posted 10 August 2020 - 05:28 PM

I agree with you that if it isn't getting worse and it isn't affecting image, I should not care much, but the reality is that I just got this binoculars finally, and can't settle until I at least know what it is.

 

I am not 100% sure if it is affecting the image and causing additional reflections or not yet. If I had another unit I could be more sure. I don't know if little subtle things are normal or not for 5mm exit pupil, as I never actually had one that bright.

 

One of things I so far noted looks like a very very pale vertical gradient of lighter sky (barely noticable but there) that moves/scanes lsideways only when panning across the sky or room ceiling. This could be related to the "scratch", or be very normal. - Edited ( seems to be normal when testing other binoculars in the same fashion). I tested it only against very light polluted sky (6-7 Bortle scale)  which leaves only bright objects visible and the rest looks like medium/dark gray sky. sad description for those not living in big cities, I know :-)

I have never noticed something like that before, bt maybe its normal. Learning something almost every day. My Oberwerk with 4.6mm is closest in brightness to it but I lent it to a friend. Others are 4.2mm exit pupil or less. 

I also noticed that on a sunny day looking at the boats and planes at the shore. It is so bright on a sunny day, and only very center does not have CA. That I would say is very normal. In any case I would use this binocular in low light scenes where most light gathering is needed. 

 

Of coarse, I also would like to have this binocular as a representative of its kind for future trade or sale. With possible crack or scratch, thats hardly an option.

 

Edited:

I tested both the Fujinon and my Monarch HG 10x42 against plain gray wall and when panning fast in medium to low lighting they both exhibit a very subtle vertical gradient-like effect that moves along. Canon exhibited almost nothing, but it is way dimmer. I never noticed such thing before. Good to know this Fuji is not "special" in that way. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20200810_191537.jpg

Edited by Milos1977, 10 August 2020 - 06:23 PM.


#24 Milos1977

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Posted 10 August 2020 - 06:10 PM

Here are photos with light coming from behind the line (from eye piece), per MellonLake suggestion. To me it shows a carved and now lit-up line in the glass, definitely deeper than just coating!. Its very unusual! 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20200810_185429.jpg
  • 20200810_185451.jpg

Edited by Milos1977, 10 August 2020 - 06:12 PM.


#25 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 10 August 2020 - 08:49 PM

I am not 100% sure if it is affecting the image and causing additional reflections or not yet. If I had another unit I could be more sure.

 

You do have the other side for comparison.  If you're looking for aberrations caused by this unknown whatever, one eye viewing should it more clearly than two eyed.

 

Jon


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