Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Poor man Takahashi telescope?

  • Please log in to reply
74 replies to this topic

#1 paulsky

paulsky

    Apollo

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,464
  • Joined: 17 Feb 2004

Posted 16 September 2020 - 09:30 AM

Hello
I wonder if we could really call the AT 60/360 APO refractor, "poor man Takahashi telescope"?
I have seen its characteristics and they coincide a lot with the small F60 model, both doublets, one with Fluorite lens and the other with synthetic Fluorite ...
Best regards
Paul



#2 petert913

petert913

    Skylab

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,376
  • Joined: 27 May 2013
  • Loc: Silverton, OR

Posted 16 September 2020 - 09:47 AM

if you are talking about the AT60ED, it uses FPL53 and Lanthinum lens doublet. I have one. Great little scope. 


Edited by petert913, 16 September 2020 - 09:48 AM.

  • paulsky likes this

#3 sg6

sg6

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 9,235
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2010
  • Loc: Norfolk, UK.

Posted 16 September 2020 - 10:09 AM

Suggest not.

Otherwise the Tak people will find you, no matter where you attempt to hide.

They are both persistant and vengeful.


  • paulsky, BRCoz, doctordub and 8 others like this

#4 Wildetelescope

Wildetelescope

    Vanguard

  • -----
  • Posts: 2,161
  • Joined: 12 Feb 2015
  • Loc: Maryland

Posted 16 September 2020 - 10:30 AM

Find a scope you like and can afford and use it.  If you can afford a Tak, buy it and be happy.  If you can't, buy the AT and be happy.  We have a finite number of clear nights in our lives, way to precious to be squandered worrying about the gear.  I guarantee both scopes will show you more than you can see with your naked eye:-). 

 

Cheers!

 

JMD


  • paulsky, turtle86, Illinois and 26 others like this

#5 leviathan

leviathan

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 832
  • Joined: 29 Nov 2011
  • Loc: Azerbaijan

Posted 16 September 2020 - 12:04 PM

Don't think that F60 series of Takahashi are as good as other big ones. Actually for astrophoto they're not.


  • paulsky likes this

#6 Astrojedi

Astrojedi

    Aurora

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,881
  • Joined: 27 May 2015
  • Loc: SoCal

Posted 16 September 2020 - 12:21 PM

I have owned many Taks and two AT60EDs - still have one. They are exceptional scopes. The optical quality and contrast is very close to a Tak. In fact I prefer it to the Tak-60 as I like the form factor / flexibility / focuser on the AT60 better. I routinely split the double double with the AT60 and widefield is stunning. With the 30mm 82deg it gives a ~7deg view. The view of North America nebula and pelican with a Orion Ultrablock filter last summer from Mt Palomar is etched onto my mind.

 

You simply cannot go wrong with the AT60ED. It is a steal at that price.


Edited by Astrojedi, 16 September 2020 - 07:04 PM.

  • paulsky, vkhastro1, eros312 and 4 others like this

#7 paulsky

paulsky

    Apollo

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,464
  • Joined: 17 Feb 2004

Posted 16 September 2020 - 03:03 PM

I don't want this to turn into an argument between rich men and poor men ... lol
Only and objectively to know if, even having the money for a Tak, it is really worth the outlay on a Tak if such an AT for half the price can offer me almost (if not better) the same performance ..., sympathies aside ..
Cheers,
Paul


  • MortonH and mikeDnight like this

#8 vkhastro1

vkhastro1

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,377
  • Joined: 21 Aug 2005
  • Loc: Vankleek Hill, Ontario, Canada

Posted 16 September 2020 - 03:11 PM

I have the SVEDS 60mm f/5.5 FPL-53 Doublet - basically the same as the AT version.

Foolishly sold it, but 1.5 years later managed to get the exact scope (same SN) back.

Not making the same mistake twice.
Great form factor with amazing optics.

 

Had a chance to buy a Tak FS60 at the same time - chose the SV60EDS. 
I already have the Tak FOA60.

The Tak FOA60 and SV60EDS ride random on a UA Doublestar mount - dynamic duo!

Low power wide-field with the SV and mid to high power with the Tak.


  • paulsky, doctordub, MortonH and 2 others like this

#9 mikeDnight

mikeDnight

    Apollo

  • ****-
  • Posts: 1,267
  • Joined: 19 Apr 2015
  • Loc: Wild Wild West - North West England

Posted 16 September 2020 - 05:24 PM

I don't want this to turn into an argument between rich men and poor men ... lol
Only and objectively to know if, even having the money for a Tak, it is really worth the outlay on a Tak if such an AT for half the price can offer me almost (if not better) the same performance ..., sympathies aside ..
Cheers,
Paul

It's the observer that in the main makes or breaks a telescope. A Good observer will get more out of a lower cost ED than a medeocre observer will get out of a top end Takahashi. It's nice to own a Tak but if that's not possible its just nice to have a good refractor of any pedigree. 


  • paulsky, payner, MortonH and 5 others like this

#10 Wildetelescope

Wildetelescope

    Vanguard

  • -----
  • Posts: 2,161
  • Joined: 12 Feb 2015
  • Loc: Maryland

Posted 16 September 2020 - 10:45 PM

I don't want this to turn into an argument between rich men and poor men ... lol
Only and objectively to know if, even having the money for a Tak, it is really worth the outlay on a Tak if such an AT for half the price can offer me almost (if not better) the same performance ..., sympathies aside ..
Cheers,
Paul

That is a subjective question each individual has to answer for themselves.  Astrotech scopes are very good quality.  Taks are Taks.  To really decide based on optics, I would need them side by side for several nights of observing.  My suspicion is that PERSONALY, the result would be close enough optically that factors like cost, mechanical details etc.. would determine my choice.  But I would have to verify that at the eyepiece.  

 

Jmd


  • paulsky likes this

#11 YAOG

YAOG

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,541
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2015
  • Loc: Southern California

Posted 16 September 2020 - 11:08 PM

Hello
I wonder if we could really call the AT 60/360 APO refractor, "poor man Takahashi telescope"?
I have seen its characteristics and they coincide a lot with the small F60 model, both doublets, one with Fluorite lens and the other with synthetic Fluorite ...
Best regards
Paul

Paul,

 

You can call the AT60ED anything you want but it's no Takahashi FS-60CB.

 

I briefly owned an AT60ED, it was a very solid scope optically considering but I found it lacking mechanically. I had a couple of Stellarvue SV60EDS and think they are very nice scopes mechanically and maybe a bit better optically than my AT60ED. But neither was a match optically for the Takahashi FS-60CB and with the Q module in place they are a distant memory. 

 

As far as FPL-53 being synthetic Fluorite this is incorrect, FPL-53 is a glass material whereas Fluorite as used in Takahashi lenses is a pure artificial Fluorite crystal. They are different in several ways optically which is part of the magic people see when using Fluorite lenses. 


Edited by YAOG, 17 September 2020 - 11:39 AM.

  • paulsky, CounterWeight, Sergey Stern and 2 others like this

#12 RichA

RichA

    Vanguard

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,482
  • Joined: 03 Jun 2010
  • Loc: Toronto, Canada

Posted 16 September 2020 - 11:11 PM

I have owned many Taks and two AT60EDs - still have one. They are exceptional scopes. The optical quality and contrast is very close to a Tak. In fact I prefer it to the Tak-60 as I like the form factor / flexibility / focuser on the AT60 better. I routinely split the double double with the AT60 and widefield is stunning. With the 30mm 82deg it gives a ~7deg view. The view of North America nebula and pelican with a Orion Ultrablock filter last summer from Mt Palomar is etched onto my mind.

 

You simply cannot go wrong with the AT60ED. It is a steal at that price.

Hard to screw-up a 60mm optic these days, since they are machine-made.  Even 20 years ago, ETX90's were highly uniform in optical quality. 


  • paulsky and mooreorless like this

#13 alan.dang

alan.dang

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 336
  • Joined: 15 Dec 2011

Posted 16 September 2020 - 11:15 PM

They are different in several ways optically which is part of the magic people see when using Fluorite lenses.


The biggest one is scatter, which translates into contrast, which translates into subjective quality both for photography and visual (as opposed to resolution).

However, it is trickier to work with fluorite which is why you only see it from premium manufacturers.
  • paulsky, Sergey Stern and Bomber Bob like this

#14 Lookitup

Lookitup

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 345
  • Joined: 29 Jul 2016
  • Loc: Florida

Posted 16 September 2020 - 11:40 PM

I don't want this to turn into an argument between rich men and poor men ... lol
Only and objectively to know if, even having the money for a Tak, it is really worth the outlay on a Tak if such an AT for half the price can offer me almost (if not better) the same performance ..., sympathies aside ..
Cheers,
Paul

Try closer to 1/4" of the cost for the AT. But still it is worthy in the longer run IMO. Consistently the Tak just keeps providing the best views a 4" doublet can deliver. Comparing the Tak DF to Orion ED100 I had, the Tak clearly won at x200 and beyond. Now go up from 4" close to 5", my newly acquired SW 120 Pro with exceptional lens, shows more detail with weight and stability increase for much less. YMMV CS Pete 


  • paulsky, John Turley and mikeDnight like this

#15 YAOG

YAOG

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,541
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2015
  • Loc: Southern California

Posted 16 September 2020 - 11:54 PM

Try closer to 1/4" of the cost for the AT. But still it is worthy in the longer run IMO. Consistently the Tak just keeps providing the best views a 4" doublet can deliver. Comparing the Tak DF to Orion ED100 I had, the Tak clearly won at x200 and beyond. Now go up from 4" close to 5", my newly acquired SW 120 Pro with exceptional lens, shows more detail with weight and stability increase for much less. YMMV CS Pete 

Actually the cost of a new Takahashi FS-60CB is $990 in the USA with the correct tube holder or about 2.68 times the new cost an AT60ED. So rounded up about 2.7x not 4x the cost.   


Edited by YAOG, 17 September 2020 - 09:33 AM.

  • paulsky and Bomber Bob like this

#16 HydrogenAlpha

HydrogenAlpha

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 514
  • Joined: 02 Oct 2014
  • Loc: Singapore

Posted 17 September 2020 - 01:43 AM

I own the FS60CB. It can be had for $700 new (or less) if bought from Asia. IMO the $1000 price is ridiculous. 

 

But of course, this is still 2x the price of the AT60ED. While I've owned several Taks, I'm not a fanatic and I'd wager that both scopes shouldn't show a significant difference in terms of views/images unless you've gotten a lemon. 

 

So why did I buy the FS60? I was contemplating between it and the Sharpstar 61EDPH. As an imager, I'd have gotten both as a package with their respective reducers. The price difference, after considering shipping, was only about a 30% difference. Considering that Taks have better resale value, I decided to go for it. 

 

I disagree that the FS60 is a bad scope for imaging. In fact, I'd owned 2 FS60s and an FSQ85 before. I don't think they are as far off as the price delta implies. 


  • paulsky, waso29, Bomber Bob and 2 others like this

#17 25585

25585

    Voyager 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 10,761
  • Joined: 29 Aug 2017
  • Loc: In a valley, in the UK.

Posted 17 September 2020 - 03:43 AM

Generally, Vixen Japanese-made would be my alternative choice to a Tak. FL-55, SD81, 105, 115 & AX103 triplet are all desirable and perform very well visually.


  • paulsky, n2068dd, Bomber Bob and 5 others like this

#18 PETER DREW

PETER DREW

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,484
  • Joined: 31 May 2017

Posted 17 September 2020 - 03:57 AM

I have a Vixen 4" F9 Flourite, I think this is more accurately considered a "poor man's" Takahashi.


  • paulsky, Nippon, n2068dd and 6 others like this

#19 Deadlake

Deadlake

    Explorer 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 50
  • Joined: 27 Jun 2020

Posted 17 September 2020 - 04:30 AM

Generally, Vixen Japanese-made would be my alternative choice to a Tak. FL-55, SD81, 105, 115 & AX103 triplet are all desirable and perform very well visually.

I agree, SD103S is a very good scope, but to be clear for high magnification (going over x217) will not be as good as the AX103 or Tak. How many nights you can use that on planets is another conversation. On clear nights the SD103S gives some excellent views of the sky. Would I trade up, I think I'll spend the funds on a larger aperture scope from whoever (Tak, APM, Agema) as a 4" will not compete with a 5" of the same glass quality/cells etc. Which is why I didn't send the SD103S back and get the AX103. 


  • paulsky and 25585 like this

#20 starman876

starman876

    Nihon Seiko

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 22,520
  • Joined: 28 Apr 2008
  • Loc: VA

Posted 17 September 2020 - 06:47 AM

if you are buying telescopes you are not poor lol.gif


  • paulsky, doctordub, CounterWeight and 10 others like this

#21 bobhen

bobhen

    Aurora

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,593
  • Joined: 25 Jun 2005

Posted 17 September 2020 - 07:11 AM

I don't want this to turn into an argument between rich men and poor men ... lol
Only and objectively to know if, even having the money for a Tak, it is really worth the outlay on a Tak if such an AT for half the price can offer me almost (if not better) the same performance ..., sympathies aside ..
Cheers,
Paul

I owned the AT 60 for a while.

 

The star test was okay but not excellent.

 

I didn’t have a Tak 60 to compare it to but my larger, and therefore more difficult to make, Tak TSA 120 has an essentially perfect star test.

 

Deep sky performance was fine but you don’t need high quality optics for low power, deep sky observing. And general deep sky observing is not a test of optical quality.

 

The scope is robust but I thought the scope was rather heavy for its size and because it is very compact was a little more of an issue to balance on my alt/az mount.

 

I think these are fine – and here it comes – for the price paid – or if one wants a scope to toss in a backpack and for daytime use and general low power wide field deep sky observing from a dark sky location. But for higher power use or where more exacting performance is required, then something with higher optical quality (Tak or other) would be a consideration.

 

I bought one to use with my image intensifier for deep sky observing. But in the end I sold it and used the money to purchase a reducer for my 4” F5 refractor, which gives me almost the same FL but a lot more light gathering capability.

 

Bob


Edited by bobhen, 17 September 2020 - 11:02 AM.

  • paulsky, Bomber Bob and YAOG like this

#22 HydrogenAlpha

HydrogenAlpha

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 514
  • Joined: 02 Oct 2014
  • Loc: Singapore

Posted 17 September 2020 - 08:04 AM

I don't want this to turn into an argument between rich men and poor men ... lol
Only and objectively to know if, even having the money for a Tak, it is really worth the outlay on a Tak if such an AT for half the price can offer me almost (if not better) the same performance ..., sympathies aside ..
Cheers,
Paul

I'm a poor man who owns a Tak. Clearly because I'm not wise with with my money lol.gif


  • paulsky, doctordub, waso29 and 6 others like this

#23 paulsky

paulsky

    Apollo

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 1,464
  • Joined: 17 Feb 2004

Posted 17 September 2020 - 08:54 AM

Don't miss out on good humor !! LOL.lol.gif

Paul



#24 spkerer

spkerer

    Explorer 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 83
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2020
  • Loc: Virginia, USA

Posted 17 September 2020 - 11:14 AM

Maybe there's a market for telling "Takahashi" stickers so people can put them on their non-Takahashi scopes.  Kind of like those that put extra badges/emblems on their cars.  :)



#25 Nippon

Nippon

    Soyuz

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,794
  • Joined: 22 Oct 2009
  • Loc: Central Florida

Posted 17 September 2020 - 11:27 AM

"I agree, SD103S is a very good scope, but to be clear for high magnification (going over x217) will not be as good as the AX103 or Tak.."

 

And why would that be? I think maybe maybe not as it would depend on sample to sample variance. The AX103 is a triplet with a rear corrector. And what Tak? The TSA 102 or one of the many fluorite doublets? I can tell you my Vixen ED103s on a very steady night has given me incredible views up to X265 which is the point I run out of eyepieces for higher magnification.

 

But as good as my 103 is I could not state with certainty that it's performance is less than, equal to or exceeds any other refractors of the same size without careful side by side comparisons and even then the results would only apply to those samples tested.


  • jeffmac likes this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics