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Mars 10/5/2020 C14, 1.5x Siebert Barlow, ASI290mm

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#1 GeorgeInDallas

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 05:33 PM

This image is a WinJupos combination of 3 RGB avi sets over 20 minutes with 2 minutes per channel. The data was recorded about 12:30 am this morning (10/5/2020). Seeing was about 5/10 about the time of these recordings. Equipment: C14, Optec focuser, ZWO filter wheel with Chroma filters, Siebert 1.5x Barlow, ZWO ASI290mm camera. Processing: Autostakkert, Registax, WinJupos, Photoshop. Mars is approximately 22 arcsec in diameter at this time. Mars elevation was about 60 deg.

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#2 Kokatha man

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 05:39 PM

Very smooth George! waytogo.gif

 

Pardon the question, but did you find any single r-g-b capture was sharper (although noisier) than the WJ integration..?

 

Personally I find it helps sometimes to part-process each single capture set (especially setting the black-point) to get the WJ integration to match the crispness of the individual images by making the AF setting most accurate for the .ims files...


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#3 Achernar

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 05:49 PM

The detail in your photo is impressive, well done!

 

Taras


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#4 phileefan

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 06:02 PM

George,

 

Very nice image! waytogo.gif


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#5 dcaponeii

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 06:18 PM

Glad the 1.5x got to you in time.  I pulled my ADC and took pictures last night at f/15 which was right on the money for my camera.  Pics are in a different post.  Hopefully my 1.5x will arrive this week so I can reinstall my ADC and try it out.

 

CORRECTION:  After I posted this I went to check the mail and my 1.5x Barlow has arrived!!  All set up and ready for darkness.


Edited by dcaponeii, 05 October 2020 - 06:52 PM.

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#6 GeorgeInDallas

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 07:04 PM

Darryl,

 

Yes, I think that one of the Red frames was sharper than the WinJupos combined Red, although, as you suggest, a little noiser. I don't think that I understand your second comment:

 

"Personally I find it helps sometimes to part-process each single capture set (especially setting the black-point) to get the WJ integration to match the crispness of the individual images by making the AF setting most accurate for the .ims files..."

 

George



#7 Tyson M

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 07:11 PM

Amazing capture here.



#8 Kokatha man

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 07:27 PM

Hi again George, I was simply wondering whether the AF was slightly out in WinJUPOS: apologies if I am being overly-presumptive but it seemed as if there might have been some sharpness lost in the WJ integrations flowerred.gif ...of course I don't know if you combined each r-g-b to create colour images, then combined those in WJ...or whether you took the other path of combining your reds etc then making the colour image that way...

 

Particularly with rgb's - but also to a certain extent when using WJ via the mono route - small discrepancies in the fit of the AF (Alignment Frame - which can be a challenge with Mars in its present phase) can result in the WJ integration losing some of its crispness: the black-point comment was a means of negating this (possible) problem...should my thoughts have any real relevance.

 

By the same situation, the more measuring you do in WJ, the greater the possibility that any errors accumulate to the detriment of the outcome...& one reason why I now combine our 100 second filter captures into rgb's &, if using WJ, I apply it to the rgb's...lessening this accumulative possibility. ;) 

 

Apologies once again if I'm being too picky! :)


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#9 Achernar

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 09:21 PM

Glad the 1.5x got to you in time.  I pulled my ADC and took pictures last night at f/15 which was right on the money for my camera.  Pics are in a different post.  Hopefully my 1.5x will arrive this week so I can reinstall my ADC and try it out.

 

CORRECTION:  After I posted this I went to check the mail and my 1.5x Barlow has arrived!!  All set up and ready for darkness.

I was at first using a 2X TeleVue Barlow with my ZWO 290MC camera, and found the poor seeing that is the norm in coastal Alabama made it a poor match from my SCT and camera. After getting my 1.5X Antares twist lock Barlow, my results improved greatly with my 290MC. I think you will see a similar experience with your telescope and camera.

 

Taras


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#10 GeorgeInDallas

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 11:13 PM

 Darryl,

 

I agree, positioning the alignment frame on Mars is challenging. I usually measure the first red image carefully and then use that measurement on all of the remaining frames. I usually shoot rgb,rgb,rgb and then use winjupos to combine all of the reds into a master red and likewise for the green and blue channels. I then use winjupos to combine the master red, green and blue into the final rgb image. 
 

I am always disappointed in the amount of detail in my images. I had hopes that when imaging Mars at its current elevation, 60 deg., I would get more detail. Maybe I just haven’t caught that night of great seeing. I am thinking I will try cleaning my corrector (outside only).

 

george 



#11 Kokatha man

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Posted 06 October 2020 - 01:23 AM

...funnily enough George, I've just cleaned our corrector & packed everything away in the car & van for the (hopefully) outing to Hawker this coming Friday. fingerscrossed.gif

 

Mind you, I don't think a clean corrector makes a lot of difference but I do it every now & then anyway...the outside probably 5 or 6 times a year, the inside once or twice in the same time...& I've probably cleaned the primary 3 times perhaps in the last 7 years. wink.gif

 

I know I've put my foot into it a bit here by mentioning the WJ AF...I can only hope you think it is an attempt to assist, even if it is misguided...

 

Truth is I looked at your image originally & thought "this is very nice but it is appears as if it is lacking some sharpness."

 

If you think that was uncalled for I apologise profusely - nothing ill-intended was meant whatsoever..!

 

Perhaps this is somewhat akin to your <"I am always disappointed in the amount of detail in my images"> but I can admit that I get that lately with our Mars captures often on the first WJ'ing when I want to WJ them for a (hopefully!) better outcome.

 

With Mars at such a full phase it can be very exacting to get the AF exactly right - & personally I know that incorrect AF settings in my WJ'ing produces a somewhat blurred outcome, such that I re-WJ the images creating new .ims files, starting all over again until I get it right.

 

The last 2 good nights (Yongala on the 13th Sept. & Hawker on the 25th) had me do this...& in frustration hit upon the idea of a partially-processed image to measure with where the edge was more defined & sharper so that I got a better idea of how well the AF fitted.

 

Normally I don't worry about levels & the black-point when Mars is much more gibbous because it's easier to fit the AF then.

 

I'm also an advocate of combining your mono images (if you keep the total timespan for r-g-b down to 300" or so) rather that pile all your reds, greens & blues in as separate images, because I think errors compound that way, & the blue images always seem to require a re-adjustment of the AF that is different to the r & g anyway for me... 

 

Using each combined r-g-b as a single rgb I do most of the processing on each then load these into WJ - I think everything is much easier this way & the results are often superior imo...

 

I also used to advocate scaling up the images loaded into WJ using WJ's view controls but nowadays with 3x drizzle they can be too large at WJ's "1.00" so I will downscale them (just in the WJ view to be clear) & that, along with the sharper edges allows me a better chance to set the AF frame optimally & with that ensure the best outcomes. smile.gif

 

I've just had a look hoping to show you the "bad" WJ outcomes Vs the "good" ones where I made better AF settings but I've deleted all those poor first (or even 2nd!) attempts...

 

Hopefully you get the drift of my thoughts & why I made my earlier comments - if you don't agree feel free to dismiss this entirely! smile.gif

 

 

 


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#12 dcaponeii

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Posted 06 October 2020 - 07:35 AM

I was at first using a 2X TeleVue Barlow with my ZWO 290MC camera, and found the poor seeing that is the norm in coastal Alabama made it a poor match from my SCT and camera. After getting my 1.5X Antares twist lock Barlow, my results improved greatly with my 290MC. I think you will see a similar experience with your telescope and camera.

 

Taras

I hope so although setting things up last night resulted in dirt particles being almost in focus so I've got to pull everything apart and blow off the dust particles.  I think if I thread the Antares 1.5x onto the ADC instead of using the 1.25" barrel it will shorten up the overlength and also "hopefully" keep the Barlow optics from being in focus.  Didn't take the time last night because it was a work night for me.



#13 GeorgeInDallas

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Posted 06 October 2020 - 09:51 AM

Darryl,

 

I VERY MUCH appreciate any comments and suggestions that you make. I always search for your comments each time I visit this forum. Over the years my approach to imaging is to attempt to follow and mimic the few planetary imagers (yourself, Peach, Go) who's work I consider to be the top quality. This has guided my equipment selection, software selection and processing work flow. So, please do not hesitate to give your comments. 

 

When you say"partially-processed image", how processed do you mean? The images that I use for measurement have only been wavelet processed in Registax. Do you mean more than that? Are you suggesting some level of PhotoShop processing before the WinJupos measurement (adjusting black point)? 

 

Just to be clear, does your comment "advocate of combining your mono images (if you keep the total timespan for r-g-b down to 300" or so)" mean:

 

1) take each set of R, G, and B filter video sequences in under 300 seconds.

2) Combine those R, G, B stacked images (Autostakkert output) into a single RGB image without using WinJupos

3) then use WinJupos to combine multiple color images into a final color image

 

Do you usually use 3x drizzle in Autostakkert for Mars? I alternate between using drizzle and not. What about align points? I recently saw a video by Damian where he only used a very few align points (11 to 15). I also saw a video tutorial by Emil Kraaikamp where he suggested using hundreds of align points and Multi-Scale. Any suggestions?

 

Thanks again,

George


Edited by GeorgeInDallas, 06 October 2020 - 09:54 AM.


#14 Kokatha man

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Posted 06 October 2020 - 07:59 PM

George: <Just to be clear, does your comment "advocate of combining your mono images (if you keep the total timespan for r-g-b down to 300" or so)" mean:

1) take each set of R, G, and B filter video sequences in under 300 seconds.

2) Combine those R, G, B stacked images (Autostakkert output) into a single RGB image without using WinJupos

3) then use WinJupos to combine multiple color images into a final color image">

 

Me: "Yes"

 

1) I put each mono/filter capture through AS!3 & then Registax.

2) Depending upon the outcome from R6 I usually apply a smalll amount of L-R deconvolution in AstraImage on each mono outcome.

3) I combine these mono images into an rgb/colour image in P/shop. (I could use AstraImage but don't these days)

4) I take the .tif I save in P/shop back into R6 for RGB Align & RGB Balance. (I open a new R6 on my screen with no wavelets applied for this)

5) If this last step above does not successfully align the channels in the interior of the disk I save the "RGB Align" that R6 has performed & then make manual adjustments to that to get the inner alignment & save it also.

6) I take either 1 or 2 images from step 5 into P/shop & if I had to manually align as well as let R6 do its thing, I use the R6 version as a "Layer Mask"* to create an image that has both the limbs & the planet's interior features channel-aligned.

7) I adjust the levels black-point (LH) slider to about what my final image outcome would be finished at & sometimes raise the mid-slider a bit** to sharpen the limbs for the next step which is measuring the image in WJ for the .ims file(s).  

 

* Layer Masking is about the easiest thing in P/shop - I have a simple/short step-by-step tute that I can post here or elsewhere if needed...

** When setting the left slider (back-point) in "Levels" I try to eliminate all that diffuse halo just outside the planet's limbs (most evident/noticeable on Mars bright-side) & then adjust the middle slider so that when I click the "preview" box on & off I see no noticeable change in the planets apparent brightness.

 

The data needs to stand 3x drizzling but there can be some mystery in that sometimes: Yongala on 13th September took it well but Hawker on 25th would only take 1.5x drizzling which I then scaled up a bit more in Regstax using "Lanczos" filtering.

 

This in itself is slightly bizarre because Emil has stated several times the 1.5x drizzling is actually 3x drizzling reduced by 50% at the finish of AS!3 processing - one can only suspect that the scaling algorithm is a very good one because any down-scaling of a 3x drizzle I perform is nowhere near as good as a 1.5x drizzle when the data won't support 3x - as it didn't at Hawker on 25th Sept.

 

Screen-browser zoom scaling on pc's is another type of scaling (upscaling) that seems far superior to anything P/shop etc utilises...but of course you can only save by making a screenshot that way! wink.gif

 

I think the reason why you see such a disparate difference etc in the 2 amounts of MAPs recommendations is because it really does not seem to matter very much at all George..! lol.gif

 

Here's a sample of what I do...sometimes I might add another "ring" of boxes & space everything evenly if I do but I find that it is almost immaterial beyond a certain point & tend to stick to this type below.

 

ScreenHunter_2118 Oct. 07 11.06.jpg

 

 

 

 

 


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#15 Lacaille

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Posted 06 October 2020 - 08:37 PM

Very interesting discussion thanks!

As you showed in my thread the other day Darryl, getting the alignment frame right in WJ is critical but also quite hard.

I am intrigued by the idea of doing a series of RGB images in Photoshop then aligning the results in WJ. My normal method involves aligning a series of Rs Gs and Bs into a master Red, Green and Blue like George above and then remeasuring and aligning those masters in WJ for the final RGB. It occurs to me that by letting Photoshop align each RGB triplet you may remove human error as each triplet is likely to be similarly aligned (I would be unlikely to touch the ADC in the course of a triplet for example).

Mark

#16 Kokatha man

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Posted 06 October 2020 - 09:24 PM

Hi Mark - just in case I misled you, enabling an r-g-b combine in P/shop does not negate the need to align the channels: you can of course do this in P/shop itself but I just open another Registax window & let R6 do an align & a balance & then make another manual adjustment to that to get the interior aligned...

 

This is an image (reduced scale) that has just been channel-merged in P/shop* without any attempt to align it there. (note Gomer Sinus red misalignment)

 

Example.png

 

The reason I stopped making "master mono" images was because of that errr..."compounding error of scale" or whatever thingy lol.gif - I can't recall the precise term atm for some reason (probably senility!) but it's the situation where, if you use an incorrect measurement, it becomes compounded the more you use it to measure other images...

 

I'm not even sure how/if it applies here, but really my main point is that the fewer images you have to measure the better...& if you make an error or want to see if you can make a better measurement you can re-measure every image!

 

And you only have to measure the combined rgb's this way...there is no reason to WJ a set of images taken in 300" whatsoever in my books.

 

All this particularly atm with Mars so full & the challenge of getting a precise AF fitting.

 

Incidentally we don't re-set the ADC for a good 15-20 minutes btw...

 

* Drag each mono image into P/shop then "Image>Mode>Grayscale" then "Discard colour information>Discard" for anyone not aware of this...when all 3 have been loaded like this it's "Channels>Merge Channels>RGB colour>OK" when displaying each channel correctly in the dropdowns. wink.gif


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#17 GeorgeInDallas

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Posted 08 October 2020 - 09:38 AM

Darryl,

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation and examples. It will take me a while to read and digest all that you have said. I have lots (350 GB) of videos that I caught a couple of night ago under pretty good seeing conditions. Additionally, my scope was well collimated and in thermal equilibrium. Temperatures have been nearly ideal here in Dallas for the last week or so (70's to low 80's) so the temp in my garage where I keep the scope was nearly identical to the outside temp. When I checked the collimation prior to imaging, the out of focus star image was as good as I have ever seen it (centered central dot and stable outer rings). I hope to apply some of what you have suggested to the processing of this "good" data.

 

George




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