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Why no Glass produced in the states, this explains it.

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#101 213Cobra

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 02:18 AM

Gigabatteries?!  Where did that come from?  You can’t make batteries big enough to store the energy required of the masses when the sun don’t shine and the wind don’t blow.

 

Gigabatteries.  That’s rich.

Sure you can:

 

https://www.dailymai...16-MILLION.html

 

Already being done in Australia, and soon in California too. -Phil



#102 SandyHouTex

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 10:25 AM

I'm in California. PG&E is building a couple of the world's larger grid battery tanks in NorCal. LADWP is considering same here in Los Angeles. I have solar + Tesla batteries on my house. My electric bill ranges from scant to 1/3rd what it was prior, and I have power through the occasional outage. This combination works now at the individual level and it's working at the macro level in Australia and soon taking first steps in California.

 

Phil

How long will you be paying on the initial cost of the system on your house?  It usually takes 20 years to recoup the initial cost of the system through energy cost savings.


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#103 SandyHouTex

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 10:41 AM

Sure you can:

 

https://www.dailymai...16-MILLION.html

 

Already being done in Australia, and soon in California too. -Phil

Once again, no mention of the initial cost of this huge battery.  Someone, probably consumers, had to pay for it, probably through taxes. if the government payed for it.  Plus 129 megawatts is nothing, and certainly NOT a gigawatt.  It’s 0.129 gigawatts of STORED energy.

 

Most nuclear power plants produce 1200 megawatts, with coal plants around 600 megawatts, and that’s continuous power PRODUCTION.  Batteries PRODUCE 0 gigawatts.  If the wind stops blowing or the sun isn’t shining, that 129 megawatts will be gone in an hour.


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#104 Jeff Morgan

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 01:15 PM

Sure you can:

 

https://www.dailymai...16-MILLION.html

 

Already being done in Australia, and soon in California too. -Phil

 

A few minutes of back-up power does not cut it. (You can say goodbye to fine-annealed glass, among other things.)

 

And once the weather turns inclement (which can be days or weeks at a time), the batteries are use - how are you going to recharge them? With renewables? 

 

If you want to sell people on renewables, South Australia is the last place you should have them look. 35 cents per kilowatt hour - among the highest in the world - and epic grid failures.

 

Technological first-world countries need power that is reliable, dispatchable, and affordable. Renewables are 0/3 on those. Fossil, nuclear, and hydro will dominate until the code is cracked on commercial fusion.


Edited by Jeff Morgan, 31 October 2020 - 01:17 PM.

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#105 Astrojensen

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 01:53 PM

Once again, no mention of the initial cost of this huge battery.  Someone, probably consumers, had to pay for it, probably through taxes. if the government payed for it.  Plus 129 megawatts is nothing, and certainly NOT a gigawatt.  It’s 0.129 gigawatts of STORED energy.

 

Most nuclear power plants produce 1200 megawatts, with coal plants around 600 megawatts, and that’s continuous power PRODUCTION.  Batteries PRODUCE 0 gigawatts.  If the wind stops blowing or the sun isn’t shining, that 129 megawatts will be gone in an hour.

Although the exact price of the battery wasn't mentioned, the price of the total project, including modern backup diesel generators, was mentioned (Aus$390m), Tesla estimated their own loss, should they fail to install them on time, to Aus$50m and some experts calculated a price estimate of Aus$95m. So, no exact figure, but we can assume that even if the battery cost around Aus$100m, it had paid for itself in less than a year.  

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


Edited by Astrojensen, 31 October 2020 - 01:55 PM.


#106 Alan French

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 02:22 PM

Has gone seriously off topic and yet it goes on and on. :( 

 

lock.gif lock.gif


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#107 213Cobra

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 03:45 PM

How long will you be paying on the initial cost of the system on your house?  It usually takes 20 years to recoup the initial cost of the system through energy cost savings.

I get in the black in 11 years. Less if electricity rates rise further. But that's not why I bought solar + batteries. It wasn't primarily a financial decision. It was environmental, and to maintain power through possible disruptions without burning fossil fuel in a backup generator.

 

Phil



#108 213Cobra

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 03:52 PM

A few minutes of back-up power does not cut it. (You can say goodbye to fine-annealed glass, among other things.)

 

And once the weather turns inclement (which can be days or weeks at a time), the batteries are use - how are you going to recharge them? With renewables? 

 

If you want to sell people on renewables, South Australia is the last place you should have them look. 35 cents per kilowatt hour - among the highest in the world - and epic grid failures.

 

Technological first-world countries need power that is reliable, dispatchable, and affordable. Renewables are 0/3 on those. Fossil, nuclear, and hydro will dominate until the code is cracked on commercial fusion.

Australia is effectively the feasibility study. California and other western states will continue the progress. When renewables are a mix, reliability, dispatchability and affordability rise. We could and should be tapping tidal power. Solar, wind and battery storage contribute. Nuclear is a working option but very difficult to get new approvals in the US. New hydro is similarly difficult to win approvals for in North America, but yes it is clean and it works. However, drought undermines it. So, renewables are gaining share and investment, and that's just not going to stop. It's a dial, not a switch. Fossil combustion will be with us for quite awhile. Just progressively less of it.

 

Phil



#109 213Cobra

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 04:00 PM

Has gone seriously off topic and yet it goes on and on. frown.gif

 

lock.gif lock.gif

I am now and always have been at a loss to understand why a forum thread going "off-topic" matters to anyone. Nothing prevents it from new "on-topic" comments added. Like an unwanted email, what's the actual cost? Someone introduces a comment that takes a thread in a different direction. So what? It's not like we're time-boxed in a meeting where tangents can actually derail an objective. I can see moderators having a role to squelch name-calling, hostilities, etc. But this? It's nothing.

 

Phil


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#110 Alan French

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 04:26 PM

I am now and always have been at a loss to understand why a forum thread going "off-topic" matters to anyone. Nothing prevents it from new "on-topic" comments added. Like an unwanted email, what's the actual cost? Someone introduces a comment that takes a thread in a different direction. So what? It's not like we're time-boxed in a meeting where tangents can actually derail an objective. I can see moderators having a role to squelch name-calling, hostilities, etc. But this? It's nothing.

 

Phil

Phil,

 

On one hand I agree with you, sometimes off-topic discussions are more interesting than the original topic, and in-person conversation tends to wander all over. 

 

On the other hand, the TOS warns against thread hijacking. I also note that discussions of energy and how to best produce it tends to be political and could easily be considered a "hot button" topic.

 

And since this only adds to going OT, I will end my comments here. 

 

Clear skies, Alan


Edited by Alan French, 31 October 2020 - 04:43 PM.

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#111 Mike W

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 06:33 PM

Sodium reactors are the future.



#112 SandyHouTex

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 07:43 PM

Although the exact price of the battery wasn't mentioned, the price of the total project, including modern backup diesel generators, was mentioned (Aus$390m), Tesla estimated their own loss, should they fail to install them on time, to Aus$50m and some experts calculated a price estimate of Aus$95m. So, no exact figure, but we can assume that even if the battery cost around Aus$100m, it had paid for itself in less than a year.  

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark

Thanks Thomas.  I couldn’t find that, but how do you figure it paid for itself in a year?  You mean by the consumers paying $0.39 per killowatt-hour?



#113 213Cobra

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Posted 02 November 2020 - 04:47 AM

Phil,

 

On one hand I agree with you, sometimes off-topic discussions are more interesting than the original topic, and in-person conversation tends to wander all over. 

 

On the other hand, the TOS warns against thread hijacking. I also note that discussions of energy and how to best produce it tends to be political and could easily be considered a "hot button" topic.

 

And since this only adds to going OT, I will end my comments here. 

 

Clear skies, Alan

Well, OK. I didn't hijack it. -Phil



#114 Astrojensen

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Posted 02 November 2020 - 11:22 AM

Thanks Thomas.  I couldn’t find that, but how do you figure it paid for itself in a year?  You mean by the consumers paying $0.39 per killowatt-hour?

The company saved Au$116m the first year it was installed. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark



#115 SandyHouTex

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Posted 02 November 2020 - 08:36 PM

The company saved Au$116m the first year it was installed. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark

Saved on what?



#116 alan.dang

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Posted 02 November 2020 - 09:07 PM

https://electrek.co/...d-service-cost/

Australia is a unique situation because the power grid goes down a lot. (I guess California this year is similar). When the grid goes down, they have to switch to backup generators which is more expensive per kWh than the regular generation methods. Having the batteries to bridge the switch and also provide backup powered has saved the $100+ million over two years.

What’s important is that just like refractors, reflectors and large aperture scopes and grab-and-go scopes., there are pros and cons to everything. If you look at the detailed articles about Australia, you see that the batteries are part of a layered defense system for the electrical grid. You wouldn’t be able to use it as the primary mechanism for energy on the evenings.

#117 csrlice12

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Posted 02 November 2020 - 10:23 PM

And one big solar flare and it's all toast anyway.


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#118 Jeff Morgan

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Posted 03 November 2020 - 01:07 AM

https://electrek.co/...d-service-cost/

Australia is a unique situation because the power grid goes down a lot. 

 

It goes down a lot because of the high percentage of intermittent renewable sources on their grid. Winds in South Australia get out of parameters - down it goes.

 

California is starting to have the same problem (with some complications due to lack of power line maintenance). Germany would have it too, excepting for their large imports of French nuclear generation. As it is, German electricity prices are just very expensive.

 

Interestingly, France has threatened Britain with power cut-offs as part of Brexit. The Germans best take notice.

 

Once these sources exceed about 10% of the total they effectively make all sources intermittent - and expensive.

 

Easy enough to go to Our World in Data or eia.gov and plot a simple graph of Renewable percentage vs. Cost per kwh. A scary linear picture.

 

And all to solve a "problem" that has never been a problem throughout the entire history of the Phanerozoic Eon.


Edited by Jeff Morgan, 03 November 2020 - 01:08 AM.

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#119 tom_fowler

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 01:18 PM

In fact some is made here: all of TEC's triplets are made at their factory in Colorado.  So it can be done.  And these lenses are among the best in the world (with prices to match, though comparable to LZOS and Takahashi).



#120 SandyHouTex

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 06:24 PM

In fact some is made here: all of TEC's triplets are made at their factory in Colorado.  So it can be done.  And these lenses are among the best in the world (with prices to match, though comparable to LZOS and Takahashi).

TEC does not melt their own glass in a kiln, which I think is what this thread is  about.



#121 RobM

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Posted 28 November 2020 - 07:55 PM

Really? Let's say the US found itself cut off by military blockade from the rest of the world, like in WW2. No optical glass from Germany, Japan, Russia or China. Where is the optical glass for all the binoculars, submarine periscopes, drone cameras, spyplanes, spy satellites, rifle scopes, laser range finders, night vision goggles, jet fighter HUDs, smart ordinance, and all other things optical the defence is going to need, going to come from? 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark

Why, Costa Rica of course.  Everyone knows that.



#122 Kunama

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Posted 28 November 2020 - 11:51 PM

https://www.youtube....HtOPBPQ&index=1


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#123 SandyHouTex

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 06:53 PM

Now that I watched this, is someone going to kill me?

 

Just kidding. (I hope.)


Edited by SandyHouTex, 29 November 2020 - 06:54 PM.


#124 RichA

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 09:37 PM

Once again, no mention of the initial cost of this huge battery.  Someone, probably consumers, had to pay for it, probably through taxes. if the government payed for it.  Plus 129 megawatts is nothing, and certainly NOT a gigawatt.  It’s 0.129 gigawatts of STORED energy.

 

Most nuclear power plants produce 1200 megawatts, with coal plants around 600 megawatts, and that’s continuous power PRODUCTION.  Batteries PRODUCE 0 gigawatts.  If the wind stops blowing or the sun isn’t shining, that 129 megawatts will be gone in an hour.

When does anyone ever see cost mentioned in pandering articles about "alternative energy?"  But, for people curious, please search:  "Energy poverty Germany."


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#125 213Cobra

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Posted 30 November 2020 - 06:13 AM

Batteries don't produce power but they can store energy from any connected source, *including the fossil-powered grid*. When a storm is coming and my Tesla batteries are drawn down, the system knows to recharge in full from the grid overnight to face the new day fully charged, and will hold that charge for the duration of the threat. Electric power, in many countries like the USA that have not invested adequately in their grids relative to growth and need, can benefit from very large battery installations. Nuclear power with today's technology should be in the discussion mix but frankly the nuclear power industry itself mauled its own credibility decades ago, so it's up to them to regain it in the US. It might not be soon. In the meantime, true renewables get steadily better in reliability & economics. We need progress on multiple paths simultaneously. Otherwise we'll be forced into the full Ed Begley of individual self-sufficiency through lots of solar, wind and big batteries strapped to all our houses. Not easy unless someone is subsidizing in a big way.

 

If you believe burning more coal, oil and natural gas are better alternatives, we don't have basis for a productive discussion. This all gets solved more rapidly when it's not just Greens against Big Oil; instead companies like Exxon and Shell must realize they are in the energy business, not exclusively in oil and gas. Then their investment criteria will change.

 

Phil




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