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Is there a right-angle dovetail adapter thingy?

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#1 Midnight Skies

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 11:54 AM

I have a situation I'm sure many people have, and I feel like i'm missing some obvious solution.  

My mounts both have vixen-style dovetail saddles that accept my scope's dovetail bar that's attached to the tube rings.  That all sounds fine, except... when connected, the scope is lying on its side, 90 degrees from what it should be with the handle on and finderscope topward.

 

I searched and searched but could find no adapter that just allows me to connect my scope upright.  Howcome others don't have this problem?  What is their solution?  I know I need a proper mount which would have the saddle facing upward, but until then... 

 

I got some parts and cobbled together a clunky right-angle adapter, but it's a juryrig and weighs almost 2 pounds.  Surely someone must make a reliable one-piece 90-degree thingy for vixen rails?  Where?  Or what do others do?

 

Pictures:

 Right Angle Thingy - 2020-10-18.jpg

 

Thanks in advance for any helpful feedback, I'm feeling quite stupid about this.

 



#2 randcpoll

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 12:43 PM

You are correct you are missing the obvious. Just loosen your rings and turn your telescope in the rings 90 degrees and then you can attach as normal.


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#3 randcpoll

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 12:45 PM

It doesn't really matter where the handle is.



#4 tony_spina

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 02:42 PM

You are correct you are missing the obvious. Just loosen your rings and turn your telescope in the rings 90 degrees and then you can attach as normal.

+1



#5 Midnight Skies

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 03:22 PM

You are correct you are missing the obvious. Just loosen your rings and turn your telescope in the rings 90 degrees and then you can attach as normal.

Oh gosh I should have done that for the first picture.... yeah I have done that before, but I still don't like the handle on the side.  It makes it harder to wiggle the rail into the slot thingy, and it's upsetting that it's not the right way up.  This doesn't bother anyone else?



#6 tony_spina

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 05:46 PM

Oh gosh I should have done that for the first picture.... yeah I have done that before, but I still don't like the handle on the side.  It makes it harder to wiggle the rail into the slot thingy, and it's upsetting that it's not the right way up.  This doesn't bother anyone else?

Nope doesn't bother me


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#7 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 06:05 PM

Oh gosh I should have done that for the first picture.... yeah I have done that before, but I still don't like the handle on the side.  It makes it harder to wiggle the rail into the slot thingy, and it's upsetting that it's not the right way up.  This doesn't bother anyone else?

 

I prefer it. It makes proper balancing easier.

 

Jon


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#8 Midnight Skies

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 06:09 PM

It doesn't really matter where the handle is.

Hmm.  Not only does it bother me aesthetically to have the handle to the side, it also makes it more difficult to work with.  I'm wondering if those who don't mind it have some different technique for attaching your scope to the mount?  I have to hold it up while wiggling the dovetail into the slot, and holding it up from the side is just harder.  No?



#9 tony_spina

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 07:08 PM

Mounting is not an issue, especially for medium to short refractors or reflectors. It should not take more than a few seconds

I cradle the scope in one hand as I'm putting the dovetail in the mount then lock with the other hand. Never had any issues in the decades that I have been doing it

 

As for how it looks mounted , who cares what it looks like in the dark.

 

BTW. I think you are adding instability in how you are mounting the scope.  You are changing the center of gravity and balance the way you show in the picture 


Edited by tony_spina, 18 October 2020 - 07:13 PM.

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#10 Midnight Skies

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 07:37 PM

Mounting is not an issue, especially for medium to short refractors or reflectors. It should not take more than a few seconds

I cradle the scope in one hand as I'm putting the dovetail in the mount then lock with the other hand. Never had any issues in the decades that I have been doing it

 

As for how it looks mounted , who cares what it looks like in the dark.

 

BTW. I think you are adding instability in how you are mounting the scope.  You are changing the center of gravity and balance the way you show in the picture 

I'm mounting it like the middle picture - with the handle on top, the way it should be ;)  What would be upsetting the balance that way?  In fact, it should be more balanced than if the handle was off to the side, wouldn't it?



#11 AhBok

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 07:50 PM

Assuming your mount has a Vixen style saddle, Orion sells an L bracket that will allow you to mount your scope "upright in its rings". Frankly, the best solution is to just rotate the OTA as stated by others and try to get past the way you think it should be. Embrace the change. 


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#12 weis14

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 08:42 PM

I'm mounting it like the middle picture - with the handle on top, the way it should be wink.gif  What would be upsetting the balance that way?  In fact, it should be more balanced than if the handle was off to the side, wouldn't it?

The issue with balance is that you usually want to be balanced as much as possible around the altitude axis's center of rotation.  Your adapter moves the scope's center of gravity off the center of rotation which will cause it to be unbalanced.  This might not be an issue you notice if your mount has slow motion controls or if you really tighten down the friction.  However, I imagine that the OTA as mounted could quickly move on its own if you don't have the friction tightened down considerably.  Worst case, you crash the scope into your tripod legs potentially damaging your objective lens or eyepiece, depending on which way it goes.

 

Many observers want as little friction as possible in their al/az mounts to make tracking smoother, so that probably explains some of the pushback. 


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#13 Midnight Skies

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 09:31 PM

The issue with balance is that you usually want to be balanced as much as possible around the altitude axis's center of rotation.  Your adapter moves the scope's center of gravity off the center of rotation which will cause it to be unbalanced.  This might not be an issue you notice if your mount has slow motion controls or if you really tighten down the friction.  However, I imagine that the OTA as mounted could quickly move on its own if you don't have the friction tightened down considerably.  Worst case, you crash the scope into your tripod legs potentially damaging your objective lens or eyepiece, depending on which way it goes.

 

Many observers want as little friction as possible in their al/az mounts to make tracking smoother, so that probably explains some of the pushback. 

Ahhhh.  Thank you, weis14, I had never considered that.  That makes sense, although it makes me very unhappy to think I would have to use my scope with the handle sideways.  You make a good point.  I shall buy a new mount.



#14 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 09:45 PM

Ahhhh.  Thank you, weis14, I had never considered that.  That makes sense, although it makes me very unhappy to think I would have to use my scope with the handle sideways.  You make a good point.  I shall buy a new mount.

 

If the sideways handle bothers you, just take it off.  Handles in general bother me.

 

Does this look aesthetically bothersome?

 

5976318-NP-101 Boulevard CN.jpg
 
Jon

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#15 Midnight Skies

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 09:58 PM

 

If the sideways handle bothers you, just take it off.  Handles in general bother me.

 

Does this look aesthetically bothersome?

 

 
 
Jon

 

 

But I need the handle!  I have to take the scope and tripod out separately (I can't carry it altogether through the doors without banging into things).  When people talk about grab-n-go I don't know how they do it.  I need a trip for the tripod, a trip for the scope, a trip for the eyepieces and power supply, and a trip for a small table and observing chair.  :/  

 

I know that scope in the photo works well for you, and I have no doubt at all that you see far more with it than I do mine... but I am bothered by the finderscope hanging where it is, don't you have to strain/stretch to use it?  I would also be bothered by the yellow tripod not matching anything on the scope... I'm going to be ordering new red screws for mine to get an all black-and-red scheme in place.  Aesthetics are important.  It's a visual hobby!  smile.gif

 

How do you carry your scopes without handles?  Or do you just keep them on the tripods?


Edited by Midnight Skies, 18 October 2020 - 09:59 PM.


#16 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 10:27 PM

But I need the handle!  I have to take the scope and tripod out separately (I can't carry it altogether through the doors without banging into things).  When people talk about grab-n-go I don't know how they do it.  I need a trip for the tripod, a trip for the scope, a trip for the eyepieces and power supply, and a trip for a small table and observing chair.  :/  

 

I know that scope in the photo works well for you, and I have no doubt at all that you see far more with it than I do mine... but I am bothered by the finderscope hanging where it is, don't you have to strain/stretch to use it?  I would also be bothered by the yellow tripod not matching anything on the scope... I'm going to be ordering new red screws for mine to get an all black-and-red scheme in place.  Aesthetics are important.  It's a visual hobby!  smile.gif

 

How do you carry your scopes without handles?  Or do you just keep them on the tripods?

How it works for me:

 

- I move my refractors assembled, ready to go.. My largest is 120 Eon.  

 

Eon and MG-2 CN.jpg

 

- If I do swap them and need to carry them, I just carry them with both hands.  I'm used to dealing with larger telescopes.. The mirror box on the scope in background weighs 67 lbs. I just lift it up and carry it out the door. 

 

- I typically use a red dot or Telrad, the forward finder location is preferable. 

 

- The tripod is blond wood.  A white and black OTA with wooden tripod is classic look which I prefer.  Aesthetics are very personal. 

 

Jon


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#17 LDW47

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 04:29 AM

Hmm.  Not only does it bother me aesthetically to have the handle to the side, it also makes it more difficult to work with.  I'm wondering if those who don't mind it have some different technique for attaching your scope to the mount?  I have to hold it up while wiggling the dovetail into the slot, and holding it up from the side is just harder.  No?

It would only bother a perfectionist, a nit picker if you will !


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#18 LDW47

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 04:34 AM

I'm mounting it like the middle picture - with the handle on top, the way it should be wink.gif  What would be upsetting the balance that way?  In fact, it should be more balanced than if the handle was off to the side, wouldn't it?

Who says it should be on top ? The manufacturer ?  Who besides you ? How much does the handle weigh to cause it to be noticeably unbalanced ??


Edited by LDW47, 19 October 2020 - 04:35 AM.


#19 SloMoe

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 08:28 AM

boy, you guy's in the Equipment forum get some interesting questions,,,,


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#20 SonnyE

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 11:33 AM

Well, it doesn't bother me. I have a proper mount.

So my telescope always lands on top, and it has no handle. I carry mine around right side up, with my hand supporting it.

 

If it were me, and it bothered me as much as it seems to bother you, I would simply get two pieces of aluminum angle and make my own right angles to mount between the Vixen rail and the scope rings.

But the root of the problem is your mount. Maybe it's high time you upgrade to a GEM type mount?

 

 

It seems to be a rather trivial thing to get so worked up about.

 

Somewhere around here is a post about some Velcro strapped handles. You might could remove that bothersome tacky metal handle, and strap-on one of those.



#21 LDW47

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 11:46 AM

I carry my scopes around holding the dove tail it makes a great handle, anything wrong with that ? I would not switch to an EQ type mount it will open another can of worms, I will not go further but anyone that has one knows what has been talked about in the past !  Again Good Luck !


Edited by LDW47, 19 October 2020 - 11:47 AM.


#22 Midnight Skies

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 08:13 PM

1) Mr. Isaacs: "My largest is 120 Eon." : I love the look of the 120 Eon.  Black scopes are the best (well, imo ofc).  My CFF looks blech in pics but is beautiful to my eyes in person.  I wish I could carry mine on my tripod, but I cannot unfortunately.

 

2) LDW47: "It would only bother a perfectionist, a nit picker if you will !" I'm not a perfectionist, but I'm one of the people who appreciate the look of a scope and setup.  It's kind of like a motorcar - an old junker will get you where you're going, but it's more fun to drive something pretty, isn't it?  Same with scopes.  For me, I want it to perform well, look nice, and be "right".

 

3) For those (like Mr. Isaacs and SonnyE) who carry their scopes with their hands - aren't you worried about fingerprints and smudges?

 

4) SonnyE: "You might could remove that bothersome tacky metal handle," ... but... I LIKE the look and utility of the handle!  It does what it was designed to do, as it was designed to do it ... carry the scope safely and easily.  I just need to...

 

5) SonnyE: "Maybe it's high time you upgrade to a GEM type mount?" Saving for it now, I'm thinking of going with an iOptron CGEM45G, it seems to get good reviews.

 

6) SonnyE: "It seems to be a rather trivial thing to get so worked up about." Car analogy again, sorry : If you saw a spoiler on the bonnet of a sports car instead of the boot, wouldn't that bother you?  It's *meant* to go a certain way, both for utility as well as aesthetics.  Surely I can't be the only one who wants things to just be "right"?  Ok, maybe a bit OCD, but still.... 

 

7) Back to my original post, I don't really want a right angle bracket... I want something that comes out straight/flat from the sideways saddle, and on the straight horizontal thingy, a saddle facing up.  I need to CAD it up sometime.  I'm sure it'd be popular ;)  It'd sell!  It's needed!

 

Thanks to everyone who's jumped in, I do like hearing everyone's thoughts (seriously), and am really interested in what people think.  I can't/won't go to a local club, so I don't know how others do/see things, other than reading CN.  Surely there are many out there who appreciate the beauty (if I may use that word) of a nice scope?  



#23 LDW47

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 08:48 PM

1) Mr. Isaacs: "My largest is 120 Eon." : I love the look of the 120 Eon.  Black scopes are the best (well, imo ofc).  My CFF looks blech in pics but is beautiful to my eyes in person.  I wish I could carry mine on my tripod, but I cannot unfortunately.

 

2) LDW47: "It would only bother a perfectionist, a nit picker if you will !" I'm not a perfectionist, but I'm one of the people who appreciate the look of a scope and setup.  It's kind of like a motorcar - an old junker will get you where you're going, but it's more fun to drive something pretty, isn't it?  Same with scopes.  For me, I want it to perform well, look nice, and be "right".

 

3) For those (like Mr. Isaacs and SonnyE) who carry their scopes with their hands - aren't you worried about fingerprints and smudges?

 

4) SonnyE: "You might could remove that bothersome tacky metal handle," ... but... I LIKE the look and utility of the handle!  It does what it was designed to do, as it was designed to do it ... carry the scope safely and easily.  I just need to...

 

5) SonnyE: "Maybe it's high time you upgrade to a GEM type mount?" Saving for it now, I'm thinking of going with an iOptron CGEM45G, it seems to get good reviews.

 

6) SonnyE: "It seems to be a rather trivial thing to get so worked up about." Car analogy again, sorry : If you saw a spoiler on the bonnet of a sports car instead of the boot, wouldn't that bother you?  It's *meant* to go a certain way, both for utility as well as aesthetics.  Surely I can't be the only one who wants things to just be "right"?  Ok, maybe a bit OCD, but still.... 

 

7) Back to my original post, I don't really want a right angle bracket... I want something that comes out straight/flat from the sideways saddle, and on the straight horizontal thingy, a saddle facing up.  I need to CAD it up sometime.  I'm sure it'd be popular wink.gif  It'd sell!  It's needed!

 

Thanks to everyone who's jumped in, I do like hearing everyone's thoughts (seriously), and am really interested in what people think.  I can't/won't go to a local club, so I don't know how others do/see things, other than reading CN.  Surely there are many out there who appreciate the beauty (if I may use that word) of a nice scope?  

As far as finger prints, smudges and what have you, did you ever hear of a good clothe made for taking those marks off of surfaces ?? They would be just superficial marks not something indelibly etched in those hard painted scope surfaces ! You wouldn’t need much elbow grease, lol !  PS: You mention old cars, those owners are always out there rubbing them down, same with a scope if you really had to, lol !


Edited by LDW47, 19 October 2020 - 08:50 PM.

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#24 Bowlerhat

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 09:37 PM

Oh gosh I should have done that for the first picture.... yeah I have done that before, but I still don't like the handle on the side.  It makes it harder to wiggle the rail into the slot thingy, and it's upsetting that it's not the right way up.  This doesn't bother anyone else?

Nope. I'm grateful the handle is there, I always grab it when mounting my scope, or demounting it, I always carry the OTA one handed with tripods on other hand. If you find it hard to get the dovetail to the slow, you can buy a larger clamp instead. You can try slotting it vertically when starting, it'll be easier to slot it down. If you're using that L dovetail saddle like that it'll shift the gravity centre up-what you want is a lower balance point, on the side. Getting the handle right up for aesthetics doesn't bother me since it doesn't affect the function at all.
 
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Edited by Bowlerhat, 19 October 2020 - 09:38 PM.

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#25 mikerepp

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 06:06 AM

With the current mount that you are using, adding a 90° bracket is going to cause your CG to be offset too much.   This is going to put some strain on the mount.   I would leave it as is and not introduce a potential problem of excess wear from having the CG moved outwards.  It's your scope, your mount and your decision but most people here are saying leave it as is.


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