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Eyepiece Projection Film Photography with a Zeiss Telemator C63/840

astrophotography
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#1 Death or Stars

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Posted 21 October 2020 - 02:47 PM

Hello All,

 

I'am a complete new boy on the block but determined to experiment to make better use of the small amount of kit I possess.

I own a Zeiss Telemator which I recently acquired which belonged to Ray Wilson (the person who was in charge of astronomical telescope design at carl Zeiss Oberkochen for over twelve years. Needless to say the instrument is in perfect working order and in immaculate condition.

I have tried my hand at prime focus photography and recorded really good images of the moon on my Exakta VX1000  35 mm SLR  (Ilford 400 ASA B&W film).

I now want to try my luck with eyepiece projection photography.

I have a number of 0.965" Zeiss Jena Ortho eyepieces (10, 16 and 25 ), various M44 extension tubes and the the usual conical eyepiece holder (0.965"/ M44 male thread).

After some research, i have concluded that nothing really exists out on the market (new or secondhand) which would allow me to provide a secure connection between my Exakta and the main scope tube incorporating a suitable eyepiece holder. I have therefore decided to press ahead and design my own custom made adapter and arrange for its manufacture in the U.K. .where I live.

 

My design is based on the premise of taking the front face of the eyepiece as close as possible to the swing mirror of my SLR, thus ensuring the capture of the maximum image available from within the eyepiece  relief distance. This small adapter is essentially going to be very similar to the readily available conical adapter ( my name for it) which connects the 0.965" eyepiece to the main scope . The big difference being that in addition to the M44x1 male thread (scope end), the adapter will have a M44x1 female thread (camera end). The adapter i'am creating will act as an ordinary M44 extension tube but with the capability of holding a 0.965" eyepiece within. Different eyepiece powers (F.L's) can be accommodated to best position by extension tube adjustments as necessary.

 

Am I going down the right path here.

All comments would be greatly appreciated,

 

The adapter will be made out of 316 Stainless steel.

 

Cheers,

Ian  ( Death or Stars)



#2 j.gardavsky

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Posted 21 October 2020 - 03:50 PM

Hello Ian,

 

the eyepieces designed for visual are not suited for the projection on a film or chip in a camera, unless the distance between the visual eyepiece and the camera is very large - by orders of magnitude of the EP focus length.

 

Worth of considering would be CZJ projective eyepiece as used in past on the microscopes,

https://www.ebay.de/...N-/303648317025

The f=160mm would be then the distance between the eyepiece and the camera.

 

Hoping this helps,

JG



#3 Giorgos

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Posted 22 October 2020 - 03:54 AM

Hello Ian!

 

There are (or at least used to be!) 0.965" eyepiece projection adapters. Also a T-adapter for your camera. That's all what you need. No special eyepieces are necessary. The Vixen 36.4mm adapter is for 1.25 eyepieces and has an internal ring as an adapter for 0.96" too (I own one of these and I regularly use it for eyepiece projection but with 1.25" only).
Edit: searching the net of curiosity I found that converting the Telementor to use 1.25” accessories just needs an M44-T2 adapter and a T2 eyepiece holder. Then you need a very easy to find and cheap 1.25" eyepiece projection adapter.


Edited by Giorgos, 22 October 2020 - 10:34 AM.


#4 Uwe Pilz

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Posted 23 October 2020 - 04:02 AM

I had a Telementor too in my younger years.

 

If you use modern film you probably don't need eyepiece projection. Prime focus contains most of the dinformation the scope is able to deliver.

 

If you feel you need some magnification of the image, I recommend a tele converter for the camera. Most 2x converters are of good optical quality, much better than the eyepiece. If you want to go a step further, look for a 3x converter.



#5 Death or Stars

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Posted 23 October 2020 - 06:23 AM

Hello All,

 

I have now  received 3 replies ( J.G., Giorgos and Gemini ) concerning my little inquiry, thankyou very much indeed gents.

All three of you bring something useful to the table. I need to decide between perfection and pragmatism in terms of how far i  push my boundaries.

Taking your views in turn :

 

J.G.

My current bibles for reference are:

'Exakta Manual' by Werner Wurst, (London, Fountain Press, 1966 and  'Astrophotography for the Amateur/, by Michael Covington, Cambridge University Press, 1991.

I believe I understand in general terms the optical principles behind eyepiece projection photography  (as distinct from afocal p.) and certainly the concept that projecting on to a flat focal plane is somewhat different compared to visual reception on a curved surface. I would agree with you, an eyepiece designed for projection is probably the best way forward technically.  I am a bit concerned about the overall length of the lens you referred me to, in terms of mounting it securely between the scope and the camera..

Have you come across any of the following on your travels.:

 

The photographic eyepieces of Zeiss -Winkel.

Leitz Periplan eyepieces.

Reichart Plan  eyepieces.

'Projective K ' eyepieces

 

My Carl Zeiss Jena orthoscopic eyepieces , too my mind , are exceptional in quality and I would not feel right in dismissing them out of hand for eyepiece projection. I need to learn from practical experience the pros and cons of kit and progress from there. You have given me strong food for thought.

 

Giorgos.

Yes, I am familiar with all you say. I'am also fully functional with kit for 1.25" eyepieces, but prefer to use the  0.965" system as intended by Jena. The market for 1.25" eyepieces and associated kit is vast, I do not really wish to get involved in trying out the latest this or that. Who am I to question the logic of experience from those optical engineers of old!

 

Gemini

Your comments are duly noted and obviously based on practical experience, hopefully I will achieve a similar grounding in the time allocated to each of us.

Your a 'converter' man, I must admit to preferring the use of a Barlow in the optical train. I currently own the Jena 0.3 barlow but not willing yet (or have the confidence) to obtain or  use the Jena 1.0 barlow, 

 

Thanks again all  (so far)

 

Ian.

 

Death or Stars 



#6 j.gardavsky

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Posted 23 October 2020 - 07:42 AM

Hello All,

 

...

 

J.G.

My current bibles for reference are:

'Exakta Manual' by Werner Wurst, (London, Fountain Press, 1966 and  'Astrophotography for the Amateur/, by Michael Covington, Cambridge University Press, 1991.

I believe I understand in general terms the optical principles behind eyepiece projection photography  (as distinct from afocal p.) and certainly the concept that projecting on to a flat focal plane is somewhat different compared to visual reception on a curved surface. I would agree with you, an eyepiece designed for projection is probably the best way forward technically.  I am a bit concerned about the overall length of the lens you referred me to, in terms of mounting it securely between the scope and the camera..

Have you come across any of the following on your travels.:

 

The photographic eyepieces of Zeiss -Winkel.

Leitz Periplan eyepieces.

Reichart Plan  eyepieces.

'Projective K ' eyepieces

 

My Carl Zeiss Jena orthoscopic eyepieces , too my mind , are exceptional in quality and I would not feel right in dismissing them out of hand for eyepiece projection. I need to learn from practical experience the pros and cons of kit and progress from there. You have given me strong food for thought.

 

...

Thanks again all  (so far)

 

Ian.

 

Death or Stars 

Hello Ian,

 

I forgot to say, that you can still use your orthos when the distance between the ortho eyepiece is much larger than the focus length of the eyepiece.

 

My preferences in optics are more toward Leitz and Leica (and Zeiss West) than CZJ.

 

Next to the historical Homal (CZJ) - I am keeping just because of my curiosity,

I have the Leica HC Photo 12.5x/13 (f=20mm) # 541535 eyepiece with the lenses sequence (1 - field stop - 2 - 1 -1), the first lens is the field flattener, insert dia 27mm, max dia 33mm, total length 60mm, which is the professional grade optics.

 

Leica HC Photo.jpg

 

For the afocal photography with a digital camera on my Leitz microscope, I take the Leitz Periplan 10x/18 (f=25mm) red dot)* #519749, which is another professional grade eyepiece both for the visual and for the photography. The red dot)* indicates the CVD correction of the chromatic aberration, which is often necessary by afocal maging. The insert dia is 23mm, max dia 33mm, total length 56mm, thread for the camera accessories 28mm.

 

Leitz Periplan red dot.jpg

 

These both eyepieces can be found on the eBay in Germany.

 

Best,

JG
 



#7 TxStars

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Posted 23 October 2020 - 11:26 AM

Any of the 0.965 eyepieces will work for eyepiece-projection of Mars / Jupiter /Saturn with the subject on center..

Lunar work is where you will find field curvature and other issues as the moon can fill the field of view

There were some eyepieces made for projection work back in the day,


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#8 Death or Stars

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Posted 24 October 2020 - 02:23 PM

Hello J.G..

 

It appears the field of knowledge concerning eyepieces is truly vast , especially to a humble civil engineer.!

 

 Could you perhaps explain why the Projektive lens you mention above (f=160) is marked down as 'Rare'.

I assume this eyepiece could be used, without further optics, between my 63mm  dia. main objective lens on the Telemator and the film plane at the other end of the scope..  I'am not there yet in calcs and would appreciate some help in working out the effective magnification /focal length of such a set-up  Why is this eyepiece so long in length, what's inside the tube, why is the sliding bit of the tube black coloured?

 My optical education is somewhat lacking as insrciptions on eyepieces seem many and varied, it's like picking through a minefield in terms of deciding where to invest the old hard-earned cash.

 

Apologies for trying your patience. ---  but all help greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers,

Ian.      


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#9 j.gardavsky

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Posted 24 October 2020 - 03:36 PM

Hello Ian,

 

you are welcome!

 

With the Carl Zeiss Jena projective eyepiece, you would place the eyepiece into the focuser, and visually with your eye focus on the target, like Moon. Then you would place the camera behind the eyepiece, and the Moon should be sharp at the distance of 160mm, plus/minus something. The magnification is then fixed, and it won't be large, I would expect that the magnification factor will be the focus length of your telescope devided by those 160mm.

 

With your visual eyepieces it will be with the method of trials, and the magnification will be much larger, especially when you put the camera at a larger distance behind the eyepiece.

 

The easiest way is of course to capture the Moon afocally with a smartphone behind the eyepiece, like in

https://www.cloudyni...ere/?p=10602849

but you want to do it like in the old days.

However, it would give you an idea what can be pulled out from your telescope.

 

An adaptation of the camera to your eyepiece will require some accessories.

Around 1960, I have repurposed for my Exa the macro tubes, and fastened in a primitive way a microscope eyepiece into the macro tube.

The Exa/Exakta macro tubes can be eventually obtained from analog lounge https://www.ebay.de/...-lounge&_sop=12

which is the last source for the old East German cameras and accessories. They also have the CZJ microscope eyepieces and the CZJ Abbe orthos for the Asiola/Telementor/Telemator telescopes.

 

Best,

JG



#10 Death or Stars

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Posted 27 October 2020 - 03:26 PM

To J G.   (private and confidential.)

 

My name is Ian Lamont 

I would appreciate direct communication if you are so  willing.?

 

Who are you (respectfully asked)?

What is your professional / occupational background?

 

I have read your short review  ( SkySearchers.com) on the Leitz Periplan, # 519749 ) and I am suitably impressed, you appear to be a goldmine of  intellectual knowledge with respect to optical design and assessment. 

 

Kindest regards,

 

Ian Lamont.

 

B.A.(Hons), M.A.(Durham), I.Eng., M.I.C.E.

Consultant Civil Engineer. 


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#11 j.gardavsky

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Posted 27 October 2020 - 04:34 PM

Hello Ian,

I have right now sent you an e-mail,

JG




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