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Is the grass really greener in Bino-telescope land?

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#1 erin

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 09:33 AM

So, I live in a light polluted area and moving to darker skies isn't gonna happen soon. I also have a couple kiddos and work 5000 jobs (okay, 3, but it feels like 5000) so I don't get to go out for 12 hours at a time.

 

I love big binos and the only thing that would be better is being able to change the magnification....hence the BT consideration. I value grabngo as I must tree/sprinkler/bright light dodge, A LOT!

 

Is it worth selling off my small wide field scope/16x80 binos/ and 4 inch apo for an Obie 70mmED BT? I would only need to grab an RDF and holder plus the heftier legs. I have all kinds of eyepiece pairs because I love binoviewing. I had hoped I could binoview natively with my 90 f5, but I can't. What is AWESOME is that my Meade f8.8 will binoview natively and I can just fit the Pleiades in the FOV.

 

High mag is covered with my fun little 90mm f8 achro and my 8inch ACF (which isn't used as much in the winter as it should be).

 

I would miss everything I would have to sell (especially my SV Access), but it would be so nice to consolidate and save room in our little place. My optics are taking over!

 

So, for those who are in BT land, is the grass greener and the sacrifice worth it for the portability and 2-eyed, variable magnification views? Or are there nuances I need to consider?

 

If I do this, the BT would also be used on camping trips.

 

Thanks in advance for your insights! 

 

Erin

 

 


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#2 TOMDEY

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 10:02 AM

The short answer is yes! I have binoscopes from small to sixteen inches, and the experience is breathtaking; what you are able to see and enjoy is astonishingly more.    Tom

 

~click on~ >>>

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#3 Mark9473

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 10:40 AM

You'd be giving up an awful lot of flexibility.

If you have only one instrument, you don't have the agony of choice which one to take out. That's about the only benefit.


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#4 erin

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 10:41 AM

Awesome Tom!

 

Am I correct that 70mm with 2 eyes is close to 90mm aperture in mono-mode? That is about the minimum of "worth it-ness) for viewing in these skies, for me.



#5 erin

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 10:43 AM

Thanks Mark. That's true. 

 

I would still have an 8 inch ACF and 90mm f8 bino-viewer friendly achro, and my 90 f6.7 (since it isn't worth selling). I'm just thinking the BT would cover what I do with everything else.


Edited by erin, 24 November 2020 - 11:01 AM.


#6 PEterW

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 01:51 PM

I got a 70mm angled bino for “2 eyes spotting” duty, the limiting parameter being ability to carry it about birding. It does a rather good job and I am now appreciating it also doesn’t do a bad job at big either. My eyepiece (and filter) collection has also suddenly grown. I now have a binoviewer for lunar and solar and a nagging question of what size my next binocular should be.... just look at Tom to see where this could lead!

Another option for heavy light pollution is night vision, but then you might have to sell more than just scopes as it unfortunately isn’t cheap.

Peter

#7 erin

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 02:05 PM

Thanks for sharing your experience Peter. Haha, you’re right! Yes, I have considered night vision, but it is way out there price wise for me. 



#8 salico

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 02:13 PM

super green!P1020422.klein.JPG


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#9 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 02:53 PM

Erin:

 

I see you're giving up your 4 inch apo.

 

I use my 4 inch apo for both low power wide field viewing as well as viewing the planet's and splitting double stars. The lack of thermal issues means I can achieve high magnifications as soon as I'm out the backdoor with the scope.

 

You'll lose this capability, grab n go planetary double stars.

 

Id lose the nearly 5 degree field possible with my 4 inch apo but that is not true of  your 4 inch apo. I calculate that with its 390mm focal length, the 70 mm Oberwerk EDs will do 4.0 degrees with the right eyepieces.

 

Jon


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#10 TOMDEY

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 03:10 PM

Awesome Tom!

 

Am I correct that 70mm with 2 eyes is close to 90mm aperture in mono-mode? That is about the minimum of "worth it-ness) for viewing in these skies, for me.

Yes, that's true... but it's far more than just the brightness boost... It's also qualitatively improved >>> It's Al Nagler's ~Majesty Factor~ on steroids, when both eyes are being equally-satiated with their own photons from nebula to retina... the way the Good Bard intended. Imagine experiencing a surround-screen / surround-sound Theatre... with a patch over one eye and plug in one ear. You'd yank the plug, the moment the Overture commenced, and pull the patch, the moment the curtain rose. Mono to True Bino viewing is like that.    Tom


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#11 erin

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 03:27 PM

Jon--yeah, I am considering if it’s is worth it. Not sure on that yet. I have the 8” acf for serious planet and double observing. It is insulated to help with cooling issues. I would also have the binoviewer friendly Meade 90 f8 for low and high power. It isn’t an apo, but it is fun and offers nice views. 

 

What do you figure the right eyepieces would be for that 4 degree view? My widest, lowest power eyepieces are the 27 mm 53degree ones. I doubt that would cut it. I’m sure I will have to get a new pair to do 4 deg.
 

Tom-I hear ya! I love the 2 eyed views and would like to observe with 2 eyes exclusively for low and high power. Great analogy!



#12 duck2k

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 04:03 PM

I got hooked when I started using binoculars. I love it so much I have a couple BT’s.  It is an addiction for me. I am so spoiled by two eye astronomy, I am not sure if I can handle an image that I can’t see correctly (upside down for example)!

 

The smallest BT I have is the Oberwerk BT 82’s with 14mm eyepieces (great combo). If you do go through Kevin, he is awesome!watching.gif

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Edited by duck2k, 24 November 2020 - 04:04 PM.

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#13 erin

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 04:11 PM

Thanks Duck! I have talked to Kevin a few times and he is very helpful. I would only trust buying these from Oberwerk because of their great service and the fact that they check them before sending.

 

It comes down to whether I am willing to part with my Access to fund it. I can part with the SVbony achro because the BT would replace it, for what am using it for. If I can get a 4 degree FoV with the BT, then I am ok losing the 16x80s also.

 

It took a lot to get where I am and while I think a BT would suit my observing style and needs well, I better think it through. I appreciate everyone’s experiences and help. Keep it coming!
 


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#14 PEterW

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 04:40 PM

Low power would be 24mm wide angle... panoptic, APM UFF, explore scientific 68degree, nothing wider in 1.25” format.
The grass isn’t greener, it’s just easier to view and with higher contrast. I agree with duck2k, my desire to look at inverted views is flagging... Binks have a strong pull.

Peter
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#15 erin

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 04:48 PM

Thanks Peter! That helps a lot. I don’t think I could get used to newts with those reversed and inverted images!



#16 grzesznypl

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 07:23 PM

Awesome Tom!

 

Am I correct that 70mm with 2 eyes is close to 90mm aperture in mono-mode? That is about the minimum of "worth it-ness) for viewing in these skies, for me.

 

Yes, that's true... but it's far more than just the brightness boost... It's also qualitatively improved >>> It's Al Nagler's ~Majesty Factor~ on steroids, when both eyes are being equally-satiated with their own photons from nebula to retina... the way the Good Bard intended. Imagine experiencing a surround-screen / surround-sound Theatre... with a patch over one eye and plug in one ear. You'd yank the plug, the moment the Overture commenced, and pull the patch, the moment the curtain rose. Mono to True Bino viewing is like that.    Tom

Not according to this post (Binocular Vision Summation). A 70 mm binocular is equivalent of 77mm to 83mm scope as that post claims. My understanding is that 83mm will be optimal gain (1.41 factor) which will happen when both of your eyes are perfectly equal. However, most people have one dominant eye so the gain will depend how bad is your weaker eye. Your should check that entire article, its a lot of reading and numbers but super interesting. 


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#17 erin

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 07:28 PM

Thanks Greg! I will check it out.


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#18 The Ardent

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 08:21 PM

I was able to complete most of the AL Carbon Star program with 82mm binoculars.

https://www.astrolea...-observing-club
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#19 TOMDEY

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 09:51 PM

Not according to this post (Binocular Vision Summation). A 70 mm binocular is equivalent of 77mm to 83mm scope as that post claims. My understanding is that 83mm will be optimal gain (1.41 factor) which will happen when both of your eyes are perfectly equal. However, most people have one dominant eye so the gain will depend how bad is your weaker eye. Your should check that entire article, its a lot of reading and numbers but super interesting. 

Geesh --- now that's pessimistic! All that says is that if you're blind in one eye... binoculars might not help all that much. Or if you're right-handed that you can't play handball. Ummm... I must confess that I got my eyes repaired to be equally-acute. An easy 20/15 each eye, cataracts out, lens implants in, and just recently... the floaters sucked out! So, I do concede that you gota see to your eye health first. If you only have one that works well... binos drop off the menu.

 

Regarding ambi-visionary. It takes practice to attain and maintain good symmetric vision.

 

>get good corrective eyeglasses... don't be lax or cheap on this one

>if either eye is deficient, look into getting it surgically repaired

>switch-hit at the telescope... 50% left, 50% right

>ditto that on any/all monoscopes (micro, viewfinder, winking, peeking, needle-threading, shooting...)

>do the same with ears, hands, feet, etc. Be aware of and train for symmetry, strength

 

Just as learning to see with a telescope takes a lot of practice and experience... learning to see with a Binoscope takes the same amount of extra practice... and is doubly worth it!    Tom

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#20 erin

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Posted 07 December 2020 - 09:41 AM

Well, I have made the decision and sold my lovely SV Access to help fund it. Hopefully I will be able to order the BT soon. Just need to save a bit more...

 

Thanks for all your help! 


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#21 edwincjones

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Posted 07 December 2020 - 10:23 AM

the grass always looks greener, but it rarely is

 

edj


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#22 erin

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Posted 07 December 2020 - 10:55 AM

That’s true. I don’t expect greener so much as different and more suited to my preference for highly portable 2 eyed views waytogo.gif


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#23 sonny.barile

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Posted 07 December 2020 - 08:25 PM

My experience is a little different. I have had a few different telescopes over the years. (but only one at a time ) 

 

60mm refractor (achro)

4-1/2 inch newt

8 inch f4.5 newt.

Scope-less for about 15 years as life kept me too busy. 

90mm refractor (achro)

Nexstar 8se (f10 SCT)

 

I got the two eyed bug and started binoviewing the SCT. Nice for planetary but left me wanting in other areas.......The SCT was already a tight field but the binoviewers made it even more stingier. 

 

Early this year I sold off the SCT and bought an Oberwerk BT-100XL-SD, TR3 tripod, Nitrotech N608 head, and the complete set of Oberwerk EP pairs.  (22, 14, and 7mm) I went from four trips in and out of the house with boxes of stuff to one. I would consider myself a well prepared minimalist now in contrast. 

 

I think I have logged more hours at the eyepiece with the BT in the 6 months I have had it than all the other telescopes combined over my life time. It’s just too easy and the views are that rewarding.

 

The ability to change EP’s like a telescope makes the BT a somewhat capable planet viewer. I have enjoyed the 7mm pairs 80x and 1.3mm exit pupil for Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, and Mars. Yes it is not as magnified as I would achieve with the 8 SCT but I also have never experienced any issues with being limited by seeing with the BT which was a chronic problem with the SCT. (not to mention the thermal issues)

At 80x the field is almost 1 degree which is enough to comfortably observe the full moon yet with  enough power to enjoy the expansive topography. Definitely a more immersive experience. I did get that binoviewing the SCT but the views were no where near as bright or stable. 
 

At 25x (22mm ep) I am netting about 3 degrees field and a 4mm exit pupil which in my current environment is letting me detect things that were invisible in my Binoviewer SCT combination. 

 

I have been posting this corny line here at every opportunity ......I have found nirvana meditation.gif

 

So yeah.....for me the grass is greener. 
 

Every instrument is a compromise. It’s a matter of finding the appropriate set of compromises to keep you happy. 


Edited by sonny.barile, 07 December 2020 - 08:33 PM.

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#24 erin

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Posted 07 December 2020 - 08:46 PM

Thanks for sharing sonny! You certainly did journey though some gear to find your nirvana and I am glad you did. waytogo.gif

 

I can’t save my pennies fast enough crazy.gif


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#25 Chuck2

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Posted 08 December 2020 - 02:49 PM

That’s true. I don’t expect greener so much as different and more suited to my preference for highly portable 2 eyed views waytogo.gif

Erin,

 

Don't think about how green the grass is, think about the experience viewing the grass! With two eyes, the view of the grass will be much more emersive, more relaxed, with less eye fatigue. 

 

With the wide angle two-eye view, you will find yourself more often panning the skies, casually roaming the Milky Way and chasing satellites... a different approach to your hobby.

 

With my refractor I typically have specific targets to look for or at; however, with the big binos I frequently head out for a night of relaxed observing, just cruising the skies for hours, with no specific target in mind.

 

Your Oberwerk BT binos will indeed be different, but in a good way. Kevin at Oberwerk is a great supporter of our hobby and offers excellent products. Hope you have the opportunity to order them soon! 

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