Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Nikon Coloured Concentric Rings

  • Please log in to reply
721 replies to this topic

#701 Michael Covington

Michael Covington

    Author

  • *****
  • Posts: 9,305
  • Joined: 13 May 2014
  • Loc: Athens, Georgia, USA

Posted 10 March 2024 - 08:34 AM

Since those are not *colored* concentric rings, indeed, we want to look for optical effects.   The hallmark of the Nikon rings is a change in color balance in a ring-shaped area.



#702 Deus_Ex_Mamiya

Deus_Ex_Mamiya

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: 20 Jan 2012

Posted 11 March 2024 - 05:49 AM

 

Image shot with Zf, Nikon 24-120 f4@f4, 1600iso, 25s, +0.3 exposure

12 subs, 8 darks. Lossless compression. 

 

 

 

The over-brightened corners is not a camera effect. You don't list flatfields, but it looks like you either used mismatched flats or did some other attempt at gradient correction?



#703 unimatrix0

unimatrix0

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,472
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2021

Posted 15 March 2024 - 01:11 PM

I'm about to receive (next week) a Nikon D610 full frame- full spec modified camera. 

I know it's not a new camera by any measures, but it was cheap. 

We'll see how it does with the night sky. 

 

 

Mark

I didn't see this camera on your website , tagged to have the concentric ring problem. 

Is is possible that it doesn't have it, or is it because it wasn't tested yet? 

 

Of course, I'm gonna do some shooting , whenever the weather lets me, maybe I'll share some subs. 

 

Thanks! 



#704 sharkmelley

sharkmelley

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,376
  • Joined: 19 Feb 2013
  • Loc: UK

Posted 15 March 2024 - 01:55 PM

I didn't see this camera on your website , tagged to have the concentric ring problem. 

Is is possible that it doesn't have it, or is it because it wasn't tested yet? 

It's not on my list of cameras because I don't have any test data from the Nikon D610.

In any case make sure you switch off image compression.



#705 jasondain

jasondain

    Sputnik

  • -----
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 26 Jan 2020

Posted 27 March 2024 - 04:39 PM

I recently had this issue shooting with my Z6ii and 135mm f/2 lens @ f/2.8.  I shot to about the middle of the histogram and exposed the flats as far to the right as I could without clipping at ISO 1600.  Is there different guidance for using this camera for deep sky images?  I think with my d850 it was 1/2 way on the histogram for lights and as far to the right for the flats at ISO3200.  I'd like to use lower ISO values with my fast lenses but also want to avoid the rings.  I think I remember seeing a table of values from some testing but can't seem to find it.  Thanks.



#706 sharkmelley

sharkmelley

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,376
  • Joined: 19 Feb 2013
  • Loc: UK

Posted 29 March 2024 - 12:13 AM

I recently had this issue shooting with my Z6ii and 135mm f/2 lens @ f/2.8.  I shot to about the middle of the histogram and exposed the flats as far to the right as I could without clipping at ISO 1600.  Is there different guidance for using this camera for deep sky images?

Firstly make sure that you are saving your data as 14-bit uncompressed (or losslessly compressed) because this will prevent the rings caused by Nikon's lossy compression. The hardcoded rings caused by what's probably a colour shading correction are best dealt with by doing exactly what you are doing.  This strategy cannot remove the Nikon rings entirely but you are unlucky if you are still seeing them.  Are you sure the rings are being caused by the camera and not by some optical effect of the lens?



#707 jasondain

jasondain

    Sputnik

  • -----
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 26 Jan 2020

Posted 29 March 2024 - 07:07 AM

I am using lossless compressed at 14 bit based on previous reading.  I generally see these most with faster aperture lenses, especially my Samyang 135 at f/2.8.  I recent shot the comet with my Esprit 100 at f/5.5 and Z6ii and while the ring was evident, it was not a big deal.  I was shooting at ISO1600 and have had some success at Iso 3200 but the sky was quite bright already.

 

Thanks



#708 Kevin_A

Kevin_A

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,680
  • Joined: 22 Aug 2018
  • Loc: Belmont, Ontario Canada

Posted 30 March 2024 - 02:08 PM

Sometimes these rings are more evident with different lenses and targets for me. If I have a few really bright stars in my image I sometimes get bad concentric ring in my image and when I image a field without overly bright stars the ring is hardly there. When I use my Z6 with my Z85 lens… no rings at all at iso800 and 1/3 histogram. I am not sure why the rings show up more in some situations but I have found that with lenses under 200mm I have to do sky flats or wall flats as using a light panels creates poor complimentary flats for these lenses, and also the Nikon mirrorless camera sensor PDAF (focus pixels on sensor) do not like flats created with anything other than natural light as you get weird horizontal banding in the flats created by light panels.


Edited by Kevin_A, 30 March 2024 - 02:34 PM.


#709 Michael Covington

Michael Covington

    Author

  • *****
  • Posts: 9,305
  • Joined: 13 May 2014
  • Loc: Athens, Georgia, USA

Posted 30 March 2024 - 04:02 PM

The camera is probably applying different corrections depending on which lens it detects electronically.   The D5300 doesn't apply any corrections if the lens is not electronic (e.g., an older manual lens, or something on a T-ring).



#710 jasondain

jasondain

    Sputnik

  • -----
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 26 Jan 2020

Posted 30 March 2024 - 06:01 PM

That might be the difference.  It seems to work well with the T-ring but not so much with recognized lenses.


  • sharkmelley and Michael Covington like this

#711 jasondain

jasondain

    Sputnik

  • -----
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 26 Jan 2020

Posted 03 April 2024 - 03:06 PM

I'm wondering if this blue pattern is something related to the issues in this thread.  I shot 30 s at ISO3200 with my Z6ii and my 180-600 f/5.6-6.3 lens the other night.  My histogram was barely off the left side, maybe 10-15 percent.  I corrected with flats that were at about 80-90 percent.  When I apply a heavy stretch or even a regular one, you can see the blue/magenta blotches all over the image.  I can correct with GraXpert but I lose some of the comet data.  DBE in pixinsight somewhat corrects it but I'm having issues getting rid of it.  When I used the same camera with a T-ring on my telescope, I didn't see this.  Should I have gone for longer subs to get my histogram further to the right?  Has anybody else seen anything similar?

Attached Thumbnails

  • comet issue.JPG

Edited by jasondain, 03 April 2024 - 03:06 PM.


#712 jasondain

jasondain

    Sputnik

  • -----
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 26 Jan 2020

Posted 12 April 2024 - 06:23 PM

I thoroughly confused now.  I was using my Z8 and Samyang 135 f/2 lens the other night. I shot Orion in the evening a light polluted area while it was fairly low and dropping.  In that Image, I got distinct rings.  Early the next morning, I shot Rho Ophiuchi at about the same altitude but with less light pollution and barely no rings.  I used the same bias and flats, exposed at about 80 percent histogram for both images and shot both at ISO1600.  For the Orion Image, I used f/2.5 and the Rho image, f/2.2.  Both were shot around half the histogram for the lights.  Is this something to do with the light pollution maybe?

Attached Thumbnails

  • Orion.JPG
  • rho.JPG

Edited by jasondain, 12 April 2024 - 06:24 PM.


#713 sharkmelley

sharkmelley

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,376
  • Joined: 19 Feb 2013
  • Loc: UK

Posted 13 April 2024 - 01:10 AM

None of your examples look like the problem being discussed in this thread i.e. coloured concentric rings caused by the internal data processing of Nikon cameras.  The background gradients you are seeing are likely to have an optical cause.  In general, the more light pollution there is, the more obvious these become.


  • jasondain likes this

#714 jasondain

jasondain

    Sputnik

  • -----
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 26 Jan 2020

Posted 13 April 2024 - 07:01 AM

OK.  Interesting that when I stack without flats, I don't see the ring at all.  



#715 unimatrix0

unimatrix0

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,472
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2021

Posted 13 April 2024 - 08:29 AM

OK.  Interesting that when I stack without flats, I don't see the ring at all.  

You got a different issue , not the colored rings. Most likely you just have bad flats. Nothing to do with the concentric rings. 

 

Here, I over stretched this image for demonstration. I have already cropped it previously so on the original image the rings continue one after another further out to the edge of the sensor , plus I already tried to minimize the rings and they are still there

 

med_gallery_355785_16988_112927.jpg



#716 vidrazor

vidrazor

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 5,471
  • Joined: 31 Oct 2017
  • Loc: North Bergen, NJ

Posted 14 April 2024 - 03:18 AM

I thoroughly confused now.  I was using my Z8 and Samyang 135 f/2 lens the other night. I shot Orion in the evening a light polluted area while it was fairly low and dropping.  In that Image, I got distinct rings.  Early the next morning, I shot Rho Ophiuchi at about the same altitude but with less light pollution and barely no rings.  I used the same bias and flats, exposed at about 80 percent histogram for both images and shot both at ISO1600.  For the Orion Image, I used f/2.5 and the Rho image, f/2.2.  Both were shot around half the histogram for the lights.  Is this something to do with the light pollution maybe?

To make things a bit odder, you can't use flats from one evening on another, because your optical setup won't be identical. confused1.gif

 

You rings appear to be internal reflections in your optical system.

 

I know this isn't really a proper solution, but you can try GraXpert on your images when you get those rings, it could help. I only had your low res 8 bit image here to test it on, so I could only do so much with it, but it seems to help in taming the ring, as you can see below. Not a "proper" solution, but a plan B if all else should fail.

Attached Thumbnails

  • test.jpg

Edited by vidrazor, 14 April 2024 - 03:19 AM.


#717 jasondain

jasondain

    Sputnik

  • -----
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 26 Jan 2020

Posted 14 April 2024 - 06:28 AM

To make things a bit odder, you can't use flats from one evening on another, because your optical setup won't be identical. confused1.gif

 

You rings appear to be internal reflections in your optical system.

 

I know this isn't really a proper solution, but you can try GraXpert on your images when you get those rings, it could help. I only had your low res 8 bit image here to test it on, so I could only do so much with it, but it seems to help in taming the ring, as you can see below. Not a "proper" solution, but a plan B if all else should fail.

The flats were taken the morning after imaging both targets.  The optical setup did not change.  There is nothing wrong with the flats.  Light pollution and this lens camera combination seem to be the logical solution.  

 

Graxpert did do a decent job of getting rid of the ring but also gets rid of some of the signal as well.  Thanks.



#718 jasondain

jasondain

    Sputnik

  • -----
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 26 Jan 2020

Posted 14 April 2024 - 06:29 AM

You got a different issue , not the colored rings. Most likely you just have bad flats. Nothing to do with the concentric rings. 

 

Here, I over stretched this image for demonstration. I have already cropped it previously so on the original image the rings continue one after another further out to the edge of the sensor , plus I already tried to minimize the rings and they are still there

 

med_gallery_355785_16988_112927.jpg

The flats are fine as they work very well on my Rho image taken in an area of the sky with less light pollution.



#719 Phillip Creed

Phillip Creed

    Aurora

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,565
  • Joined: 25 Jul 2006
  • Loc: Canal Fulton, OH

Posted 16 April 2024 - 12:03 PM

I know I could go through this thread, but it's already past 700 posts, so can anyone say if there's any current Nikon-Z cameras that don't have this colored ring issue?  Or at least doesn't have any reports thereof?

Clear Skies,

Phil



#720 sharkmelley

sharkmelley

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,376
  • Joined: 19 Feb 2013
  • Loc: UK

Posted 16 April 2024 - 11:47 PM

We don't know of any Nikon Z-series camera that is free from the problem of rings caused by the hardcoded correction.



#721 vidrazor

vidrazor

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 5,471
  • Joined: 31 Oct 2017
  • Loc: North Bergen, NJ

Posted 17 April 2024 - 12:30 AM

Graxpert did do a decent job of getting rid of the ring but also gets rid of some of the signal as well.  Thanks.

Well I'm dealing with your highly compressed data here. I would try it on your 32 bit data. The processing is completely adjustable as well.
 



#722 primeshooter

primeshooter

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 577
  • Joined: 19 Mar 2021

Posted 19 April 2024 - 07:11 AM

I know I could go through this thread, but it's already past 700 posts, so can anyone say if there's any current Nikon-Z cameras that don't have this colored ring issue?  Or at least doesn't have any reports thereof?

Clear Skies,

Phil

 

 

We don't know of any Nikon Z-series camera that is free from the problem of rings caused by the hardcoded correction.

I've not yet seen it on my Z 8, shooting at ISO 800, which I like to do as it is above the gain point. If I see it, I will report.




CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics