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ADVICE PLEASE: Tak FC100DC (F7.4 Canon/Optron Fluorite doublet) vs. AT102EDL (Hoya FD100 + lanthanum)

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#1 RobM

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Posted 10 January 2021 - 11:57 AM

Trying to decide between the two.  The Tak FC100DF is basically 'unobtanium' at this point Visual only and funds ARE a consideration)

 

The Tak FC100DC ($2340) has the following specs:

  • Aperture  100mm (Canon/Optron Fluorite doublet objective)
  • Focal Length  740mm
  • Focal Ratio  f/7.4
  • Heaviest Single Component  6.16 pounds
  • Weight  6.16 pounds (OTA only, no clamp / rings or dovetail, I assume they'll add a couple of pounds)
  • Visual Limiting Magnitude  11.8
  • Back focus: Can't easily locate info
  • I only have a 2" WO dielectric diagonal, so until I could get a premium (prism or mirror) from Baader, I assume I'd need the usual mishmash of expensive Tak adapters)

 

The AT102EDL ($1,095) has the following specs:

  • Aperture  102mm (Hoya FCD-100 + lanthanum mating element)
  • Focal Length  711mm
  • Focal Ratio  f/7
  • Heaviest Single Component  9.3 pounds
  • Weight  9.3 pounds (this includes rings and dovetail)
  • Back Focus  161mm
  • ability to use 2" diagonal out of the box

Edited by RobM, 10 January 2021 - 12:39 PM.


#2 rkaufmann87

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Posted 10 January 2021 - 12:01 PM

Sounds like your decision is simple the AT101EDL due to the price and availability. By the way, if you want the AT battery order ASAP so you can get on the list. 



#3 gwlee

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Posted 10 January 2021 - 01:31 PM

 

Trying to decide between the two.  The Tak FC100DF is basically 'unobtanium' at this point Visual only and funds ARE a consideration)

 

The Tak FC100DC ($2340) has the following specs:

  • Aperture  100mm (Canon/Optron Fluorite doublet objective)
  • Focal Length  740mm
  • Focal Ratio  f/7.4
  • Heaviest Single Component  6.16 pounds
  • Weight  6.16 pounds (OTA only, no clamp / rings or dovetail, I assume they'll add a couple of pounds)
  • Visual Limiting Magnitude  11.8
  • Back focus: Can't easily locate info
  • I only have a 2" WO dielectric diagonal, so until I could get a premium (prism or mirror) from Baader, I assume I'd need the usual mishmash of expensive Tak adapters)

 

The AT102EDL ($1,095) has the following specs:

  • Aperture  102mm (Hoya FCD-100 + lanthanum mating element)
  • Focal Length  711mm
  • Focal Ratio  f/7
  • Heaviest Single Component  9.3 pounds
  • Weight  9.3 pounds (this includes rings and dovetail)
  • Back Focus  161mm
  • ability to use 2" diagonal out of the box

 

Besides being much less expensive, the AT comes with a 2-speed, 2” focuser, and a sliding dew shield, which are all essential features for my use, so I wouldn’t consider the Tak unless I planned to replace its focuser.

 

I have been pleased with the two AT scopes that I have owned recently. The glass was good and the focuser were good, so expect the new 102EDL will be similar. 



#4 Hesiod

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Posted 10 January 2021 - 01:56 PM

The single speed focuser of the Tak works better than a lot of duals-speed ones. Also the excellent Tak objective ensures that focusing is pretty easy even at insane magnifications.

If can not find a DF may look for a DZ instead: this one has the same larger focuser and can use 2" stuff; as a personal note, I have the DF but seldom use 2" eyepieces.

However mind that the Tak is sold "naked" and will have to purchase also rings (and a RDF or a Rigel Quickfinder), so could end having to pay more than what planned.

 

If funds are a consideration may be worth to wait and see what the used market has to offer


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#5 JeremySh

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Posted 10 January 2021 - 02:02 PM

Sounds like your decision is simple: the Tak. Yes it’s more expensive, but because you are considering it, I assume it is within reach. Probably the only scope you’ll ever need.


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#6 teashea

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Posted 10 January 2021 - 11:03 PM

You are correct, the FC-100DC is not available in the US at this time.  

 

I suspect that under most conditions, the differences in performance of these two scopes would be insignificant.  They are both very fine telescopes. 

 

For me, however, the Tak was worth the difference.

 

Whatever you decide it will be good.  No bad decision either way.



#7 teashea

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Posted 10 January 2021 - 11:06 PM

 

If can not find a DF may look for a DZ instead:

I am pretty sure that there is no new DC, DF, DL or DZ available in the US.



#8 RichA

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 12:25 AM

 

Trying to decide between the two.  The Tak FC100DF is basically 'unobtanium' at this point Visual only and funds ARE a consideration)

 

The Tak FC100DC ($2340) has the following specs:

  • Aperture  100mm (Canon/Optron Fluorite doublet objective)
  • Focal Length  740mm
  • Focal Ratio  f/7.4
  • Heaviest Single Component  6.16 pounds
  • Weight  6.16 pounds (OTA only, no clamp / rings or dovetail, I assume they'll add a couple of pounds)
  • Visual Limiting Magnitude  11.8
  • Back focus: Can't easily locate info
  • I only have a 2" WO dielectric diagonal, so until I could get a premium (prism or mirror) from Baader, I assume I'd need the usual mishmash of expensive Tak adapters)

 

The AT102EDL ($1,095) has the following specs:

  • Aperture  102mm (Hoya FCD-100 + lanthanum mating element)
  • Focal Length  711mm
  • Focal Ratio  f/7
  • Heaviest Single Component  9.3 pounds
  • Weight  9.3 pounds (this includes rings and dovetail)
  • Back Focus  161mm
  • ability to use 2" diagonal out of the box

 

The Tak is likely the only one where you will be assured of getting a really good objective.  I'd make sure you can return the AT102EDL if you find it has a problem, isn't up to scratch.


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#9 Ihtegla Sar

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 12:56 AM

I'd keep my eyes on the used market. These scopes come up for sale all the time. A DF was listed on CN for $2,000 just four days ago (now sold).

I bought my DF last year from a trusted CN member for about that price. I also have a DL. They are both excellent.
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#10 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 09:30 AM

Rob:

 

What is it you want to do with this scope?  What is its purpose, what will you be looking at.

 

A couple of thoughts: 

 

- The AT-102EDL has a guarantee of a Strehl of 0.95.

 

- The AT-102EDL has a very good two speed rack and pinion focuser.. 

 

- The Takahashi is a Takahashi.

 

- A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush..

 

Jon


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#11 mikeDnight

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 06:04 PM

Well I own a Tak and its one of the best scopes Tak have ever made. I know this because I've seen the graphs and read the reviews. Ive also seen the stunning views it delivers and the silly high powers it can reach without breaking down. So I'd say wait for a Tak to become available.

I'd also like to add that I've had my superlative Tak alongside other presumably lesser apo refractors, and have seen nothing in them to make me think of them as being the poorer cousin. Most ED and Apo refractors are so close to Tak in performance, at least visually, that its not worth losing sleep over. So I'm pretty confident that if you buy the non-Tak scope, you'll be just as happy. The only downside would be, in the back of your mind you'll probably wish you'd bought the Tak. Then you'll eventually sell your non-Tak and buy a Tak, only to find there's no perceivable difference. Only your wallet will be lighter!


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#12 Erik Bakker

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 06:24 PM

A Tak FC-100 DZ or DF is impossible to beat for visual use. And that will both cost you AND make you happy everytime you use it under the stars.

 

A good 102 ED, like the AT, will deliver great images too, but just not quite as great. Hence it costs much less. But nevertheless will show you the magic of the universe a good 4” can show.


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#13 Defenderslideguitar

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 07:50 PM

Here is a df on C/N classifieds    right   now

 

https://www.cloudyni...100df-like-new/



#14 John Huntley

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 09:27 PM

I own a Vixen ED102SS F/6.5 and a Tak FC100-DL F/9. The Tak is marginally but noticeably better to my eyes, as it should be for the price. I'm visual only as well.

 

The Vixen is also a very nice refractor.

 

I guess the answer depends on how much you want this purchase to be the best 4 inch you can get or a very good 4 inch. And how much you are prepared to pay.


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#15 Steve Allison

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 09:32 PM

Have we figured out yet if we can trust the Strehl ratings given or guaranteed by the various makers?


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#16 nirvanix

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 10:41 PM

Why don't you wait until there are a few reviews of the 102EDL at large before you decide?  A fpl53/lanthanum doublet with a guaranteed Strehl of .95 might turn out to be a Tak killer. wink.gif

 

At the very least, it offers a great performance/price ratio.


Edited by nirvanix, 12 January 2021 - 10:42 PM.


#17 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 01:17 AM

A Tak FC-100 DZ or DF is impossible to beat for visual use. And that will both cost you AND make you happy everytime you use it under the stars.

 

A good 102 ED, like the AT, will deliver great images too, but just not quite as great. Hence it costs much less. But nevertheless will show you the magic of the universe a good 4” can show.

 

It all depends on how you play the game.

 

If you limit your choices to 4 inch refractors it's not so easy though the one night the owner of a 100 mm F/7.4 Takahashi compared it to my TeleVue NP-101 and he felt that under dark skies, the TeleVue with its flat field and shorter focal length was the better scope. Of course its also more expensive.

 

Personally, I'd choose the Astro-tech because of the mechanicals and cost. I use a 4 inch for casual planetary and double star observing, when I want the best possible planetary views, when I want to resolve the closest doubles, I use significantly larger apertures.

 

That's how I play the game.

 

Jon



#18 25585

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 05:01 AM

I am pretty sure that there is no new DC, DF, DL or DZ available in the US.

A pre-owned FS-102 is worth considering.

 

But also a S-W 100 ED F9 which has Schott Ohara FPL53 lens.



#19 Erik Bakker

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 05:27 AM

For low power widefields under dark skies and versatility, I agree with Jon that a NP101 is hard to beat. For medium and especially high powers, the nod goes to the Tak for sure in the 4” class. And it will show the better images of the 2 scopes mentioned by the OP.


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#20 bobhen

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 12:17 PM

If you are deciding between JUST these 2 scopes and want a refractor to use as a “general purpose refractor” that will do: solar, deep sky, have a reasonably wide field, be very portable and be as good on the moon and planets as just about any 4” can be, then I would suggest the Takahashi.

 

Consider that this is a 4” telescope so one should really want the best optics, as one is already giving up aperture.

 

You might try running a wanted ad and specify what you are looking for.

 

You might try a retailer overseas.

 

You might just have to wait a few months. The universe isn’t going anywhere and you can save even more. In the end, if this will be your only refractor or only telescope then you will never regret waiting and getting the Takahashi.

 

Bob


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#21 Erik Bakker

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 12:27 PM

Let me add: while deciding which scope to choose and ordering it is generally a matter of weeks to months, owning and enjoying a good scope is easily a matter of years or even decades. Which in turn makes the total cost of ownership low, especially if depreciation of the scope you choose is low. Most great scopes are enjoyed at high initial investment, but low total cost of ownership.


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#22 mikeDnight

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 01:37 PM

I ordered my DZ in February 2020 after five years using a superb DC. The DZ came to me on a slow boat from Japan and so I didn't receive it until late April. It was definitely worth the wait, which was actually quite a short wait compared to some other high end scopes. smile.gif


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#23 RobM

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 10:38 PM

If you are deciding between JUST these 2 scopes and want a refractor to use as a “general purpose refractor” that will do: solar, deep sky, have a reasonably wide field, be very portable and be as good on the moon and planets as just about any 4” can be, then I would suggest the Takahashi.

 

Consider that this is a 4” telescope so one should really want the best optics, as one is already giving up aperture.

 

You might try running a wanted ad and specify what you are looking for.

 

You might try a retailer overseas.

 

You might just have to wait a few months. The universe isn’t going anywhere and you can save even more. In the end, if this will be your only refractor or only telescope then you will never regret waiting and getting the Takahashi.

 

Bob

I placed a "Wanted" ad on that 'other' site and people have either:

  1. Offered to sell me a used Tak, but at a $350+ premium over new for the naked OTA alone.  I'm not paying $2650 for a used FC100DF OTA before shipping and PayPal fees.
  2. Offered to sell me a used Tak, but then experienced 'sellers remorse' and backed out when I said I was ready to send PayPal ASAP (one person told me he decided not to sell because his significant other was disappointed because 'she' really liked how his telescope complemented his home office...WHAT?!?!ranting.gif), or
  3. Sold their scope locally, AFTER offering to me, so as to save on the hassle of shipping

 

VERY discouraging.  I can see the pandemic has placed a premium on the supply of Takahashi scopes due to supply issues and people discovering a great 'safe' hobby, but...

52qbnwh.jpg
 


Edited by RobM, 13 January 2021 - 10:53 PM.

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#24 Ihtegla Sar

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 10:53 PM

I placed a "Wanted" ad on that 'other' site and people have either:

  • Offered to sell me a used Tak, but at a $350+ premium over new for the naked OTA alone. I'm not paying $2650 for a used FC100DF OTA before shipping and PayPal fees.
  • Offered to sell me a used Tak, but then experienced 'sellers remorse' and backed out when I said I was ready to send PayPal ASAP (one person told me he decided not to sell because his significant other was disappointed because 'she' really liked how his telescope complemented his home office...WHAT?!?!ranting.gif), or
  • Sold their scope locally so as to save on the hassle of shipping
VERY discouraging

I placed a "Wanted" ad on that 'other' site and people have either:

  • Offered to sell me a used Tak, but at a $350+ premium over new for the naked OTA alone. I'm not paying $2650 for a used FC100DF OTA before shipping and PayPal fees.
  • Offered to sell me a used Tak, but then experienced 'sellers remorse' and backed out when I said I was ready to send PayPal ASAP (one person told me he decided not to sell because his significant other was disappointed because 'she' really liked how his telescope complemented his home office...WHAT?!?!ranting.gif), or
  • Sold their scope locally so as to save on the hassle of shipping
VERY discouraging
Umm . . . There has been a used DF on CN Classified a for a couple days now, priced at $2,250 which includes shipping, paypal, tube rings and a Vixen finder shoe. That's several hundred dollars below the new price ($2,440.00 + at least $100 or more for tube rings). It comes in the original box and appears to be in good condition and only a year old.

Someone linked the ad a few posts up.

Looks like it's still available.

https://www.cloudyni...100df-like-new/

Another DF sold here at a decent price about a week ago.

Edited by Ihtegla Sar, 13 January 2021 - 11:06 PM.

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#25 RobM

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 11:15 PM

I'm disabled, so I have a ceiling of $2000, max. The most egregious example was a guy in Cali offering me a Tak FC76DCU OTA for 'only' $1750, shipped. 


Edited by RobM, 14 January 2021 - 09:28 PM.

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