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Wide field low mag EP advice

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#1 Interstellar0vDr

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Posted 24 January 2021 - 07:52 PM

I've got an Orion Xt8i and I'm looking to get a good WFOV low magnification 2" eyepiece. I don't wear glasses and dispite my profile saying I live in Boston, I've since moved out of the city.  I was originally thinking of going with the ES 30mm 82, but then began to also consider the ES 28mm 68. Then I started reading about the 2" APM HDC 20mm 100, which has also got great reviews, but maybe that's more of mid range mag EP? Maybe it would be worth getting two 2" EPs. I just bought a ES 14mm 82 so I'm basically looking to get something for low mag now. I have a basic 1.25" 26mm Meade EP, but I'm looking to phase that out so let's pretend I don't have that. So I can either go minimal and just get one 2" EP, get two 2" EPs, or one 2" and one 1.25" where the 1.25" could also be Barlowed. Just to get the full view of what I've got for EPs: Meade 26mm (phase out), ES 14mm 82 (Barlowed 7mm), Orion 10mm (phase out), and ES 4.7mm 82. So option three from above of buying 2 EPs and one being a 1.25 EP could help with the phase out of the 10mm EP when that new EP was Barlowed. What do you guys think? Thanks in advance!



#2 faackanders2

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Posted 24 January 2021 - 07:58 PM

I've got an Orion Xt8i and I'm looking to get a good WFOV low magnification 2" eyepiece. I don't wear glasses and dispite my profile saying I live in Boston, I've since moved out of the city.  I was originally thinking of going with the ES 30mm 82, but then began to also consider the ES 28mm 68. Then I started reading about the 2" APM HDC 20mm 100, which has also got great reviews, but maybe that's more of mid range mag EP? Maybe it would be worth getting two 2" EPs. I just bought a ES 14mm 82 so I'm basically looking to get something for low mag now. I have a basic 1.25" 26mm Meade EP, but I'm looking to phase that out so let's pretend I don't have that. So I can either go minimal and just get one 2" EP, get two 2" EPs, or one 2" and one 1.25" where the 1.25" could also be Barlowed. Just to get the full view of what I've got for EPs: Meade 26mm (phase out), ES 14mm 82 (Barlowed 7mm), Orion 10mm (phase out), and ES 4.7mm 82. So option three from above of buying 2 EPs and one being a 1.25 EP could help with the phase out of the 10mm EP when that new EP was Barlowed. What do you guys think? Thanks in advance!

Can't go wrong with APM HDC 20mm 100AFOV or ES 30mm 82AFOV.  Both are widest TFOV you can get for 100AFOV(excluding 25mm ES) and 82AFOV.  Both make 2" great finder eyepieces.



#3 Echolight

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Posted 24 January 2021 - 08:08 PM

Meade 28mm PWA 82 degree or APM 30mm UFF maybe?

 

The 28 PWA should be wide enough for the largest open clusters. It is in my 1200mm focal length scope. Much larger TFOV (true field of view) than the APM 20-100. 15-20% larger TFOV. 

And will give you a reasonably large 4.75mm exit pupil. 
8 ounces lighter than the ES82 30mm. So less worry of having to use counterweights to balance your scope.
 

The APM 30 UFF is highly rated. Lighter weight and maybe won't show as much coma as the 82 AFOV eyepieces. But not as wide TFOV.

 

Many would suggest not using the 100 degree eyepieces with an f6 dob unless you have a coma corrector.


Edited by Echolight, 24 January 2021 - 08:11 PM.

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#4 vkhastro1

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Posted 24 January 2021 - 08:09 PM

I personally would through out the ES 30mm 82° Out of the mix due to its weight and cost.

Optically it is very good.

Add either the APM 2 30mm UFF @ AFOV 70° - not the maximum but excellent ergonomics, optics and cost.

or

Meade 2” 28mm PWA AFOV 82° or other variants (WO Uwan re-released with better ergonomics).

 

I own the APM 30mm and the TS 28mm version - both are terrific options !

 

As just mentioned by Echolight (beat me to the punch) ! 


Edited by vkhastro1, 24 January 2021 - 08:11 PM.

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#5 vkhastro1

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Posted 24 January 2021 - 08:28 PM

I owned both the ES 30mm 82° and the Meade series 5000 UWA 82° - moved on to new homes.

I kept my TV Nagler 31mm Type 5 - in a much higher optical league than either of the 2 fore mentioned eyepieces.

It is the gold standard but is very expensive compared to most options (except Leitz 30mm).

 

I added the APM 30mm UFF as a lighter weight option with excellent optics.

The TS 28mm 82° was a very pleasant surprise with its new ergonomics (had the original 28mm WO Uwan but the bulbous upper portion made the upper eyelens a poor shape for my eye socket. Optically excellent,  a near “Nagler killer”.  

 

Another option is the Pentax 30mm XW AFOV 70° - I prefer the view in my refractors over the view in my reflectors.

 

Also since your scope is f/6 a coma corrector is not an absolute necessity. 
However once you have made your eyepiece choice give one a try, you might be pleasantly surprised (I always use one in my longest Dob @ f/5.35).


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#6 Interstellar0vDr

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Posted 24 January 2021 - 08:48 PM

The 2" 28mm 82 is sounding like a good way to go. To clarify, TS stands for Teleskop Express? And that is the German version of the Meade? If that is the way I decide to go, should I eventually get something to put between the above mentioned and the 14mm? Or instead of that, maybe phase out my 10mm by getting something better to put between the 14mm and the 4.7mm. However, going that route probably wouldn't help me make much use of Barlowing an EP in that range, where as if I got something between the 28mm and the 14mm, that Barlowed would be the 10mm replacement. 

 

PS: love the avatar Echolight; big fan of Van Gogh and Starry Night is very fitting here! I heard Neil Degrass Tyson say that based on the time frame that Van Gogh painted Starry Night, Venus is probably the bright star that is depicted in that painting.


Edited by Interstellar0vDr, 24 January 2021 - 08:54 PM.


#7 vkhastro1

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Posted 24 January 2021 - 08:55 PM

Yes, TS is Teleskop Express in Germany and is the German version of the Meade PWA.

I purchased directly from TS - excellent service - highly recommended.



#8 Interstellar0vDr

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Posted 24 January 2021 - 10:16 PM

Yes, TS is Teleskop Express in Germany and is the German version of the Meade PWA.

I purchased directly from TS - excellent service - highly recommended.

 

Does this EP ever come up here used? If not the only way to get it is direct from Germany ? Shipping costs add a bit to the price of this EP coming from over seas.



#9 Echolight

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Posted 24 January 2021 - 10:52 PM

Does this EP ever come up here used? If not the only way to get it is direct from Germany ? Shipping costs add a bit to the price of this EP coming from over seas.

It's about the same price as the Meade 28 PWA once you add the shipping cost, or a little more. Both are $100 or more less than the ES82 30mm though.

 

I don't keep up with the classifieds.



#10 Interstellar0vDr

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Posted 24 January 2021 - 11:29 PM

To buy the TS it is just under $280 shipped to the USA where as I could get the ES 28mm 68 used for under $200 shipped. Is the TS 28mm 82 worth almost $100 more? I mean it is quite a bit higher FOV... I suppose there is always potential for the TS to come up used, but I'm not sure what the price would look like then. I'm kind of thinking $200 is the most I'd want to spend for an EP. If the TS is really that much better I may have to think about it a little more.


Edited by Interstellar0vDr, 24 January 2021 - 11:32 PM.


#11 sevenofnine

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Posted 24 January 2021 - 11:29 PM

After carefully considering the cost and weight of various 2 inch wide angle eyepieces for my XT-8 Plus, I settled on the ES 28/68. It's sharp almost to the edge and gives a large porthole view to the night sky waytogo.gif  



#12 SeattleScott

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 12:42 AM

I would get the 82 AFOV for wider FOV. You aren’t maxing out 2” format even with the 28/82. About 80-85% of max. So giving up another 20% is significant. And people seem to RAVE about this eyepiece. The ES 28/68 is a good eyepiece no doubt, but it isn’t top tier. It is intended to be a lower cost alternative that provides the bulk of the performance of top tier eyepieces for a considerable discount. $200 is considerably less than $345 for a 27 Panoptic. By comparison the Meade seems to be a great value, coming very close to Nagler performance at about 40% of the price.

Bottom line, quality 2” wide field is expensive.

But I understand the budget issue.

You also want a 10mm or so.

Scott

#13 PJBilotta

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 02:11 AM

I ended up going with an ES 28/68 as well. Great performer - sharp, bright, great contrast and eye relief in a small and lightweight package - and quite affordable. It's so nice to look through that I can't justify bumping up to an 82 or APM 30 UFF - particularly for my wife field "finder".

#14 CeleNoptic

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 03:56 AM


To buy the TS it is just under $280 shipped to the USA where as I could get the ES 28mm 68 used for under $200 shipped. Is the TS 28mm 82 worth almost $100 more? I mean it is quite a bit higher FOV... I suppose there is always potential for the TS to come up used, but I'm not sure what the price would look like then. I'm kind of thinking $200 is the most I'd want to spend for an EP. If the TS is really that much better I may have to think about it a little more.

 

Instead of TS you can get its Meade PWA rebrand at $260 new or check Classifieds for the used WO UWAN version, which should be closer to what you want to spend IMO.



#15 sg6

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 04:21 AM

For wide views your original ES82 30mm is the best giving around 2 degrees. The others fall somewhat less in field. And you do say "wide field". Then wide field gets pushed to one side.

 

ES82 30mm is 2 degrees

ES68 28mm is 1.58 degrees

APM100 20mm is 1.66 degrees

 

*** I have assumed the scope is 1200mm focal length, if 1000 divide the field by 1.2 ***

 

What do you want to see in "wide" ?

In none will M31 be observable in full, M45 will I think not quite make it, just too tight to be comfortable even in the 82/30. Certainly a failure in the other 2 ideas.

 

In a way you might end up buying nice big and what will be costly eyepieces and still failing at seeing the wide/big objects.

 

Rather unfortunately but the best thing for a wide view is a simple small scope.

I have a ZS61 at 360mm and a 25mm Paradigm gives me 4.16 degree views. Basically 2x your best option. Which is something rarely considered by astronomers. Large(ish) scopes and wide fields are mutually exclusive to a fair extent.

 

So what do you want to see in the wide views. Can they be achieved in the equipment.



#16 Echolight

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 09:02 AM

For wide views your original ES82 30mm is the best giving around 2 degrees. The others fall somewhat less in field. And you do say "wide field". Then wide field gets pushed to one side.

 

ES82 30mm is 2 degrees

ES68 28mm is 1.58 degrees

APM100 20mm is 1.66 degrees

 

*** I have assumed the scope is 1200mm focal length, if 1000 divide the field by 1.2 ***

 

What do you want to see in "wide" ?

In none will M31 be observable in full, M45 will I think not quite make it, just too tight to be comfortable even in the 82/30. Certainly a failure in the other 2 ideas.

 

In a way you might end up buying nice big and what will be costly eyepieces and still failing at seeing the wide/big objects.

 

Rather unfortunately but the best thing for a wide view is a simple small scope.

I have a ZS61 at 360mm and a 25mm Paradigm gives me 4.16 degree views. Basically 2x your best option. Which is something rarely considered by astronomers. Large(ish) scopes and wide fields are mutually exclusive to a fair extent.

 

So what do you want to see in the wide views. Can they be achieved in the equipment.

The 28 PWA will frame M45 nicely in a 1200mm focal length scope. It's very close to 2 degrees, if not there. It's only about 10% less than the XW40.

 

The APM 20-100 will fit the seven sisters, but not anything left over for context. About 15% less than the 28 PWA.


Edited by Echolight, 25 January 2021 - 09:14 AM.


#17 Interstellar0vDr

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 10:07 AM

The 28 PWA will frame M45 nicely in a 1200mm focal length scope. It's very close to 2 degrees, if not there. It's only about 10% less than the XW40.

 

The APM 20-100 will fit the seven sisters, but not anything left over for context. About 15% less than the 28 PWA.

Yes, that's what I saw when testing out FOV. I know any of the above mentioned EPs are going to do a decent job with M45 and at the very least they will be a huge leap from my basic 26mm. I'll probably keep an eye out for which ever one comes up used closest to my price range. There is an ES 28mm 68 on eBay that ends in about four hours that is right now just over $150 plus shipping, but it has come up cheaper here so maybe I shouldn't bother with that one right now.



#18 Echolight

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 10:28 AM

Yes, that's what I saw when testing out FOV. I know any of the above mentioned EPs are going to do a decent job with M45 and at the very least they will be a huge leap from my basic 26mm. I'll probably keep an eye out for which ever one comes up used closest to my price range. There is an ES 28mm 68 on eBay that ends in about four hours that is right now just over $150 plus shipping, but it has come up cheaper here so maybe I shouldn't bother with that one right now.

Compared to my field testing with the XW40, 28 PWA, and HDC 20, it seems the simulators shortchange the 28 PWA some. They show the field of view closer to the 20-100 than the 40-70. But I saw otherwise, with the 28 PWA closer in TFOV to the XW40 than to the HDC 20.
Of course in the simulator I used the WO UWAN 28mm in place of the 28 PWA, and the ES100 20mm in place of the APM HDC 20mm, since the Meade and APM were not options.

 

The previous incarnations of the 28 PWA listed two different field stop sizes. 38mm on one, and 43mm on another. I suspect it is somewhere in between.

524F763A-87C1-4B5A-9585-653A679532BC.png


Edited by Echolight, 25 January 2021 - 10:37 AM.

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#19 scotsman328i

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 10:32 AM

Depending on your budget, don’t rule out the 35mm Panoptic. Legendary eyepiece for low power and wide FOV. 


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#20 SeattleScott

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 10:33 AM

I ended up going with an ES 28/68 as well. Great performer - sharp, bright, great contrast and eye relief in a small and lightweight package - and quite affordable. It's so nice to look through that I can't justify bumping up to an 82 or APM 30 UFF - particularly for my wife field "finder".

It’s only $20 to bump up to the Meade version of the APM. I’m guessing you got the ES 28/68 before the price went up to $200.

That being said, I don’t believe the Meade 30 UHD can double as a dating app, so there is that. Yogurt powered mounts and wife finder eyepieces. Gotta love auto correct.

Scott

Edited by SeattleScott, 25 January 2021 - 11:40 AM.


#21 SeattleScott

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 10:39 AM

Yes, that's what I saw when testing out FOV. I know any of the above mentioned EPs are going to do a decent job with M45 and at the very least they will be a huge leap from my basic 26mm. I'll probably keep an eye out for which ever one comes up used closest to my price range. There is an ES 28mm 68 on eBay that ends in about four hours that is right now just over $150 plus shipping, but it has come up cheaper here so maybe I shouldn't bother with that one right now.

Stuff on eBay typically sells for more. Ironically a rare item sold on eBay a couple days prior to one selling here. The eBay one sold for about 15% more.

The problem with CN is being fast enough on the draw. There are better deals but you have to buy them quick. With eBay you often have a week advance notice, but you have to outbid everyone. And the price often goes up a lot in the final few minutes.

Scott

#22 SeattleScott

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 11:22 AM

Right now, I have a hunch that the best eyepieces are back ordered for months. If there is an eyepiece that is readily available from multiple vendors, it is quite possible that it isn’t a great eyepiece, or it is perceived as overpriced.

I am not actively looking for new eyepieces so I don’t know which ones are back ordered and which ones aren’t, so I can’t confirm this hypothesis. It is just something I would consider right now.

Scott

#23 Interstellar0vDr

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 11:44 AM

I don't plan to buy any EP new just because it's cheaper to buy used and it should be like new any way. I have been keeping track of what goes up for sale here and things do go fast but I try to keep on it. As far as the one that's on eBay, it is probably going to end up going for more than it would here, but I still suspect it might be under $200 shipped by the end.



#24 SeattleScott

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 11:59 AM

I don't plan to buy any EP new just because it's cheaper to buy used and it should be like new any way. I have been keeping track of what goes up for sale here and things do go fast but I try to keep on it. As far as the one that's on eBay, it is probably going to end up going for more than it would here, but I still suspect it might be under $200 shipped by the end.

Remember with eBay you pay sales tax. With the small astro only vendors you typically don’t unless you reside in the same state. Of course sales tax depends on where you live, but for me it is 10% so if the price hits $180 then it is essentially retail price for me.

Normally used eyepieces go for about 60-75% of new price. So $150 plus tax would already be overpriced by historical standards. But these are different times and some people will pay full retail for a used item rather than wait three months for a new one.

Edit: my bad, the ES 28/68 actually retails for $240. I thought I saw someone say $200. So under $200 used does sound a little more appealing. It is surprising that the retail price is higher than the Meade 30 UHD. Kind of a different perspective than the person who settled for the ES 28/68 figuring it was good enough for low power rather than paying up for the 30mm.

https://optcorp.com/...xRoCZsYQAvD_BwE
So here is the nine element Meade for $209. You are prepared to pay up to $200 for a used six element ES 28/68 that most concur is not as good and won’t give as wide of a view. Of course the new Meade is back ordered so availability could factor into the decision.

Scott

Edited by SeattleScott, 25 January 2021 - 12:15 PM.


#25 Interstellar0vDr

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 12:34 PM

Remember with eBay you pay sales tax. With the small astro only vendors you typically don’t unless you reside in the same state. Of course sales tax depends on where you live, but for me it is 10% so if the price hits $180 then it is essentially retail price for me.

Normally used eyepieces go for about 60-75% of new price. So $150 plus tax would already be overpriced by historical standards. But these are different times and some people will pay full retail for a used item rather than wait three months for a new one.

Edit: my bad, the ES 28/68 actually retails for $240. I thought I saw someone say $200. So under $200 used does sound a little more appealing. It is surprising that the retail price is higher than the Meade 30 UHD. Kind of a different perspective than the person who settled for the ES 28/68 figuring it was good enough for low power rather than paying up for the 30mm.

https://optcorp.com/...xRoCZsYQAvD_BwE
So here is the nine element Meade for $209. You are prepared to pay up to $200 for a used six element ES 28/68 that most concur is not as good and won’t give as wide of a view. Of course the new Meade is back ordered so availability could factor into the decision.

Scott

That Meade doesn't seem bad, it is unfortunate that it is not in stock but atleast it gives an estimate of when it will be back in stock. 

 

As far as the ES 28mm 68, I would not pay $200 for a used one. I've seen them sell here used in the last month or two between $125-$150 so that wouldn't be bad at all. I'd pay $200 for a ES 30mm 82, but at that point would the Meade be better? it wouldn't give as wide of view.




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