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What do I say when they call? MyT vs AP1100 (or wait for Mach 2)

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#1 Linwood

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 07:56 PM

I now have a MyT.  I am happy.  I think I am happy.  Clouds and rain have kept me from using it a lot, but what I have used, once I worked out some issues is working fine.  I really need a couple more months to know how happy I am.

 

I worry about Rumsfeld's unknowns -- you know, not the known unknowns, but the unknown unknowns (enough of you are old enough to remember that speech). 

 

I am on the AP1100 list, I added it before I found the MyT, and bought it.  Basically in the "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with".  (Also a reference to the older, substitute Mount in there somewhere). 

 

So here's the question: If they call me, what do I say? 

 

I guide, so was not going to get the encoder version.  I image at either 540mm or 2800mm generally (maybe 2000mm), with a 4" refractor (20#) and C11 (40#, maybe 44# if I do some mods). 

 

I do not expect to ever go near 50 pounds, at least no closer than 44 or so.  C11 is plenty heavy enough I want nothing larger, since I tear down and set up nightly.

 

I could however, get the AP1100, and easily sell the MyT, at least I presume so.  Might loose $1000 or so.  The AP1100 is much more expensive even without encoders but I won't go without food if I buy it.   But... 

 

The Mach2 will likely be next year since I added myself late to that list. 

 

So here's the question: 

 

What will I get from the AP1100 that I'm not getting from the MyT? 

 

The things I think I get are: 

 

- Good: Freedom from TSX (but I'm getting used to it, and have largely worked around its issues) 

 

- Maybe: More capacity; don't need it in absolute sense, but will it help a lot with wind and the C11? 

 

- Bad: More weight to haul in and out (I would use thru axis cables so I would need to move the whole thing, not disassemble)

 

- Speculative: Some say the electronics in the MyT are fragile, and the AP1100 not so much. 

 

Is there anything else really?

 

Bottom line: Can I expect the AP1100 to guide substantially better than the MyT?   I'm not sure it can, my stars are round and I'm way down near 0.4" anyway (at 2800mm, a bit worse at 540mm for reasons unclear).   But averages are not everything, maybe it would have less excursions.

 

The main thing I think (the "known unknowns") is it may give me better resistance to wind, if nothing else from it's increased mass. 

 

What else? 

 

Should I just say "wrong number"?   confused1.gif

 

Linwood


Edited by Linwood, 23 February 2021 - 07:57 PM.


#2 jerahian

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 08:15 PM

Since you're looking for opinions... laugh.gif

 

...and I will caveat this by saying I am partial to A-P. flowerred.gif

 

So, my 2 cents...

 

I would skip the 1100 and wait for the Mach2.  By then, you would have had a few more miles on the MyT and may lean one way or the other in the inevitable love-hate relationship that forms between man & mount.  Also, if you are already guiding regularly around 0.4", personally, I would not be expecting anything magical to occur with the 1100 nor the Mach2.  OK, maybe the Mach2 could be magical!

 

-Ara

 

P.S.  @Linwood, it is very much OK to canvas opinions from the community.  Do not fret!


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#3 Linwood

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 08:23 PM

Thanks, @jerahian.

 

Here's my loose and very naïve thinking. 

 

My biggest limitation is wind with the C11. 

 

Setting aside whether either is better than the MyT at wind resistance, how do they compare to each other (with a 40-ish pound load)?

 

The AP1100 presumably has more mass and sheer inertia.

The Mach2 with AE has a quick active response to bring it back to position.

 

Which will be better? 



#4 Ken Sturrock

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 08:24 PM

I remember back a ways when the Mach 1 had been announced. I had just bought a Takahashi EM-200 but still put my name on the Mach 1 waiting list. I was concerned about what I'd do when AP called with my turn for a Mach 1.  It turns out that the early slots for the Mach 1 were filled with people who had ordered the cancelled AP 400 mount. By the time that AP called me up, four years later, I was a bit short on cash and decided to just stay with the EM-200. AP was very understanding - they just moved on to the next customer. I used my EM-200 for another ten years after that. I did finally replace the Takahashi with a MyT.

 

I know that the Mach 2 won't take as long as "my" Mach 1 would have, but I wouldn't sweat it. I think the Mach 2 is going to be a killer mount, but your interests and needs might have shifted. Moreover, your feelings about the MyT might have changed.

 

As for the 1100, I'd say that was payload driven. You either need it or not.

 

You remember how I told you that each of these was a good mount but any given one may not be right for you? You'll know more then.


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#5 cytan299

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 08:45 PM

 

 

Bottom line: Can I expect the AP1100 to guide substantially better than the MyT?   I'm not sure it can, my stars are round and I'm way down near 0.4" anyway (at 2800mm, a bit worse at 540mm for reasons unclear).   But averages are not everything, maybe it would have less excursions.

 

The main thing I think (the "known unknowns") is it may give me better resistance to wind, if nothing else from it's increased mass. 

 

What else? 

 

Should I just say "wrong number"?   confused1.gif

 

Linwood

Hi Linwood,

  I can't give an opinion about the MyT because I have never owned one. FYI, I regularly get 0.25" rms guiding in PHD2 from both my Mach1GTO and AP1100AE with absolute encoders, but this is only for a short time ~15 min. Seeing is the dominant cause of guide errors with my AP mounts. At least in my area, about 40 miles west of Chicago, the seeing is not terrific and light polluted. But even so, with these two mounts, I would consistently have guide errors between 0.4"-0.5" which is ok at the start of imaging, 0.3" - 0.4" after about 1 hour in as the target climbs higher and then < 0.3" for short spurts, i.e. fantastic.

 

  I really like my Mach1GTO because it is very light compared to my AP1100. However, the Mach1GTO is affected by wind while the AP1100 a lot less because of the encoders.

 

  cytan


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#6 jdupton

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 08:48 PM

Linwood,

 

   I agree with both Ara and Ken in the posts above. Pass on the AP1100 when called and wait for the Mach2, then decide. (However, if you were thinking AP1100AE, with encoders, then take it when the offer comes up.)

 

   I base this on guiding response. In my mind (with no experience with either the AP1100 or the MYT), what encoders bring you is the hardware feedback system for making corrections as required from either PE or external concerns like wind. The encoders can (more or less) correct guiding immediately when an excursion is detected. With normal guiding, you have to wait for the next guide frame to come in before a correction can be sent. The encoders allow you to use longer guide exposures / waits as you are only correcting for refractive or polar alignment drift which is much slower. The hardware helps with the faster impulse-like guiding.

 

 

John


Edited by jdupton, 23 February 2021 - 08:50 PM.

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#7 Ken Sturrock

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 09:02 PM

Right now it's windy outside and my TEC-140 is a like a long sail on my MyT.

 

Screen Shot 2021-02-23 at 19.01.00.png

 

I shouldn't have bothered to setup, but I wanted to play a bit before the snow shuts me down tomorrow.



#8 dhaval

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 09:08 PM

Here's what I did (for reference, I already had/have an AP1200) - I was on the Mach2 list. My name was announced, but I let it go. I could not foresee myself falling for encoders but less capacity. I put myself on the AP1100 list, with full intention of buying it when my name would be announced. Sometime in December 2020, I heard that A-P was delayed getting encoders from Renishaw and they were pushing Mach2 deliveries further out. I extrapolated that to mean that AP1100 with encoders would be delayed as well (and, I think I am being proven right, most folks whose name has been called and those that are getting encoder mounts and especially those getting extended temperature encoders, for them the mount won't arrive until summer or maybe fall). With that said, I ordered a 10Micron 2000HPS Combi II. Back in December, they were running a promo and Ed Thomas further sweetened the deal for me. It was a no-brainer at that point. 

 

In any case, this really boils down to - the capacity of the mount and the need for encoders or not. I am a firm believer that you will out-grow your mount some day, so buy as much capacity as you can right now. That puts you in the AP1100 bracket. About the encoders - you can guide as much as you want, but I do believe that encoders simplify the guiding process tremendously. I would absolutely get encoders on my next mount. 

 

For you then, if you are more than certain that you are not going to get a different scope, then wait for the Mach2. However, also realize that if you get the AP1100 with encoders, you are only going to be paying half now, and half sometime in summer/fall (there are a couple of vendors that do have AP1100 that are still not called for) - meaning, you can save up for those encoders through the summer months and get an AP1100 with AE (I would not get extended temperature encoders). 

 

My recommendation - bite the bullet, get the AP1100 with encoders. Pay half now and remaining when the mount is ready to be shipped.

 

CS!


Edited by dhaval, 23 February 2021 - 09:09 PM.

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#9 Linwood

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 09:09 PM

Yeah, last night was really windy, maybe 10mph or even a bit more at first, calming slowly to about 6mph. So I skipped the C11, but the NP101is on the MyT did quite nicely, nice round stars, not great guiding (I'd have to go look but I'd say 0.6-0.7" on average) but good enough at that image scale.

 

I thought about trying TSX for guiding but multi-star in PHD2 is just SO much better than it was with single star.  Maybe Bisque will do something similar. 



#10 Linwood

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 09:22 PM

In any case, this really boils down to - the capacity of the mount and the need for encoders or not. I am a firm believer that you will out-grow your mount some day, so buy as much capacity as you can right now.

Thank you, lots of good thoughts in there, just to comment on this one... 

 

Normally I'd agree with you, but unless I move (i.e. a new house) I have to set up and tear down nightly. The C11 is already a lot to carry out and put into a saddle. Even if I used a cart, the "put into the saddle" part still is a physical issue and lifting (say) a C14 up there, even if I could, is not something I want to do (or want to continue to do for years). 

 

I just can't see me going for a heavier scope unless I move and have a more permanent setup. 

 

On the encoder front -- I've been told the Mach2 encoders were needed due to steppers vs servos (or something like that), and that's why there is no no-encoder Mach2.  Is there any implication there that they work less well in the Mach2 because of this? 



#11 dhaval

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 09:54 PM

I don't have the Mach2 and haven't followed the Mach2 evolution in terms of its encoders, so can't say how well the encoders work or not - the only thing that I do know about the Mach2 is that the encoders are placed on-axis, meaning, even if you un-clutch the mount and move it manually, it will know its position as compared to encoders on AP1100 and AP1600, wherein if you manually move the mount, it won't know its position. 

 

But, from all accounts, the encoders seem to be doing an excellent job on the Mach2 and by the sound of it, comparable with 10Micron 1000 (I bring that up because I have heard a lot of people tell me that 10Micron encoders are slightly better than how A-P has designed encoders for putting them on AP1100/AP1600 - they are still excellent, but 10Micron seems to be just slightly better). 

 

CS!



#12 Linwood

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 10:25 PM

I have heard a lot of people tell me that 10Micron encoders are slightly better than how A-P has designed encoders for putting them on AP1100/AP1600 - they are still excellent, but 10Micron seems to be just slightly better). 

 

Well, 10micron probably does its math in the metric system, so they have an advantage.  lol.gif


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#13 Ken Sturrock

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 10:29 PM

Maybe Bisque will do something similar. 

Probably not.


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#14 cougarone

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 11:14 PM

image0b.jpg You most likely will not want to carry it in and out.  I did this 2x and quickly got a buggy to wheel it in and out of the garage. For Photography work I will remove from the buggy once it is at its location on the driveway (once spring hits, now too much snow and to cold)( i am new to imaging so will learn the ropes once it warms up into the 40's)


Edited by cougarone, 23 February 2021 - 11:25 PM.


#15 Linwood

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 11:23 PM

Still have to lift the OTA onto the mount.  Sure, with enough work one can rig all sorts of carts and lifts and pulleys and such... but please, can we just assume I'm not going to get bigger than a C11? 



#16 JMW

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 12:22 AM

My choice was for another Astro-Physics mount. Mach 2 or 1100. I have owned the 900GTO for 10 years. I finally decided I want the ability to remove the Dec axis for lighter individual pieces, more capacity and absolute encoders. Put my deposit down for the 1100GTO with encoders last week and hope to have it around May.



#17 Dean J.

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 12:32 AM

 

But, from all accounts, the encoders seem to be doing an excellent job on the Mach2 and by the sound of it, comparable with 10Micron 1000 (I bring that up because I have heard a lot of people tell me that 10Micron encoders are slightly better than how A-P has designed encoders for putting them on AP1100/AP1600 - they are still excellent, but 10Micron seems to be just slightly better). 

 

OK, how are the 10Micron encoders “slightly better” than the ones used on Astro-Physics mounts?  Please specify.  I don’t think it is fair to make such a comparison without offering specific facts.


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#18 streak

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 12:44 AM

Still have to lift the OTA onto the mount.  Sure, with enough work one can rig all sorts of carts and lifts and pulleys and such... but please, can we just assume I'm not going to get bigger than a C11? 

Several years my son and I hoisted our EdgeHD 14 up into the saddle until we finally got smarter.  We now stand the OTA upright on a table next to the mount and rotate the RA axis so the CW bar is parallel to the ground and then rotate the Dec so it is vertical.  Then with the table still supporting the weight of the OTA, we just slide the dovetail into the saddle, clamp it down, add some counterweight, and then swing her up.  Repeat steps in reverse order to get the OTA back down.  Much easier on my back and less terrifying.  So never say never to going bigger.



#19 JMW

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 12:57 AM

I have the C11 EdgeHD but enjoy my focal ratio of 10 inch f/4 newtonian more and haven't used the C11 since I bought the newt. I can't see handling the size of the C14 either.

 

Sounds like a decent two person method of getting the scope on the saddle.



#20 Jeff_Richards

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 07:27 AM

I have the C11 EdgeHD but enjoy my focal ratio of 10 inch f/4 newtonian more and haven't used the C11 since I bought the newt. I can't see handling the size of the C14 either.

 

Sounds like a decent two person method of getting the scope on the saddle.

So if/when the Edge version of the NightOwl reducer comes out, will that retire the newt?



#21 Jeff_Richards

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 07:31 AM

Back on topic, I would tend to agree with the recommendations to hold on to the MyT until the Mach2 comes out and decide then. The added bonus might be that some used 1100's might hit the market as well and you could save some cash if you want to go that route. You seem to be happy with the MyT except for the C11 in wind...maybe try and figure out a quick set up wind break?



#22 rockstarbill

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 08:54 AM

Here's what I did (for reference, I already had/have an AP1200) - I was on the Mach2 list. My name was announced, but I let it go. I could not foresee myself falling for encoders but less capacity. I put myself on the AP1100 list, with full intention of buying it when my name would be announced. Sometime in December 2020, I heard that A-P was delayed getting encoders from Renishaw and they were pushing Mach2 deliveries further out. I extrapolated that to mean that AP1100 with encoders would be delayed as well (and, I think I am being proven right, most folks whose name has been called and those that are getting encoder mounts and especially those getting extended temperature encoders, for them the mount won't arrive until summer or maybe fall). With that said, I ordered a 10Micron 2000HPS Combi II. Back in December, they were running a promo and Ed Thomas further sweetened the deal for me. It was a no-brainer at that point.

In any case, this really boils down to - the capacity of the mount and the need for encoders or not. I am a firm believer that you will out-grow your mount some day, so buy as much capacity as you can right now. That puts you in the AP1100 bracket. About the encoders - you can guide as much as you want, but I do believe that encoders simplify the guiding process tremendously. I would absolutely get encoders on my next mount.

For you then, if you are more than certain that you are not going to get a different scope, then wait for the Mach2. However, also realize that if you get the AP1100 with encoders, you are only going to be paying half now, and half sometime in summer/fall (there are a couple of vendors that do have AP1100 that are still not called for) - meaning, you can save up for those encoders through the summer months and get an AP1100 with AE (I would not get extended temperature encoders).

My recommendation - bite the bullet, get the AP1100 with encoders. Pay half now and remaining when the mount is ready to be shipped.

CS!


Dhaval,

The delay was on extended temperature encoders for the Mach 2. Those don't use the same encoders as the 1100. Just so folks are aware....

#23 rockstarbill

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 08:54 AM

OK, how are the 10Micron encoders “slightly better” than the ones used on Astro-Physics mounts? Please specify. I don’t think it is fair to make such a comparison without offering specific facts.

They aren't. At all. That's completely bogus. It's readily apparent to anyone that actually knows how they work. The gallery here loves to think it knows things it doesn't.

There is a difference in how the 1100 vs Mach 2 encoders work, but none of them (10um included) perform better or worse than the other, as far as the encoders themselves are concerned. Anyone that assumes so is nonsensical.

Edited by rockstarbill, 24 February 2021 - 08:58 AM.


#24 dhaval

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 09:28 AM

Just so we are all clear - first off all, I was not looking to start a 10Micron/A-P war - I am a big A-P fanboy. Secondly, what I quoted was anecdotal evidence - this is coming from people who know way more than I do and who actually have used both mounts (and BTW, they too are A-P fanboys). I think it is safe to say that not many people have actual experience of using both mounts, so when they say something about these mounts, I tend to listen. 

 

Bill - I agree that Mach2 and AP1100/AP1600 encoders are different, but my understanding is that they are all sourced from the same vendor by A-P and hence my extrapolation. I could be wrong, but it still seems that folks who are ordering the AP1100 with encoders, they are getting their mounts in summer or fall (again, anecdotal while following some of the other threads on this forum). 

 

BTW, once I do get the 2000 Combi II, I will be in a better position to comment on the performance of encoders on 10Micron mounts v/s on A-P mounts. I have used an AP1600 with AEL, so I do have that experience - but there is no point of reference to compare it right now.

 

CS!



#25 Peter in Reno

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 09:29 AM

I think it has to do with 10Micron mount knowing exactly where the mount is pointing to even if you manually move (unlock the axes clutches) the mount and the mount still knows exactly where it's pointing to, in other words the mount never gets lost.

 

The new Mach2 mount is exactly the same and never gets lost either.

 

BUT, the way encoders are mounted for A-P1100AE is different and you will have to re-sync if you manually move the mount but that's minor. Once the mount is synced, it will perform flawlessly, just don't unlock the clutches (why would you do that?).

 

That does not necessarily make 10Micron mounts slightly better than A-P mounts. What matters is the results of the images.

 

Bottom line, both Mach2 and A-P1100AE are awesome mounts. 

 

Peter 


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