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Rasa 8 and ZWO 533..The Perfect Yet Pricey EAA Setup?

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#1 biomedchad

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 06:16 AM

ive been involved with eaa for over 10 years.  ive owned various scopes and a few mounts and many cameras.  mallincams, modded security and webcams..and now these amazing cmos cameras.  eaa is as easy and productive as ever for me and others these days.  last night i observed a dozen or so objects in a few hours and while broadcasting we were all in amazement of the various objects that were pulled in 1 after the other.  the rasa does this extremely fast and with the 533 sensor size very cleanly.  i used the rasa celestron LP filter for the first time to compare to my usual setup with the starizona filter drawer and various filters.  i also use the zwo eaf and NINA for autofocus.  the rest is done in sharpcap 4.0 with sequences to begin and search for objects and plate solvees to center them.  this is a pricey setup but dont let price make you think its harder.  anyone can do this with a bit of time and testing and asking the right questions.  here is m45 and ic1805..both are shot at gain 300 with 30 sec exposures with a total of 5 mins on each object.  only cropped in lightroom.  you could take these images and import them into photoshop or pixinsight and process them even further like i do sometimes.. with eaa you can have your cake and eat most of it too.  enjoy

 

fyi..great colors and color balance out of the celestron rasa LP filter.  it is def worth the investment and it will be hard for me to take it off. ill use my other filters for my second favorite scope..the RC6..a bit more challenging to use but at way less of a cost

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#2 garyhawkins

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 08:23 AM

That's a winning combination, if not a little pricey!


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#3 GaryShaw

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 08:36 AM

BMC, very nice. I’ve been following yours and Sanjeev’s various RASA-related posts and am gradually moving towards a RASA 8/11. Are the horizontal spikes on M45 caused by the cables from the camera ? 
 

Wacky RASA question: is there a RASA-specific barlow out there? It would likely help on smaller DSO’s like planetary nebulae. Being able to observe smaller galaxies and PNs seems the only down-side to the RASAs - would you agree or not?

cheers

Gary



#4 biomedchad

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 09:03 AM

So yeah the diffraction spikes are caused by the cables. M45 is hard to not get halos or spikes so it’s a extreme example. You can minimize them by bending and routing but I’m not going for an apod here :)

 

so as I said I matched my rasa with a cheaper longer focal length scope. There is no way to Barlow or increase magnification per say. You can only crop I. And zoom with a camera with a smaller chip sensor only so far. Maybe one day we will have a camera that can do all this for us.   But I am having so much fun currently doing wider field galaxy peeping it might be more time before I put the rc back on the mount. 

BMC, very nice. I’ve been following yours and Sanjeev’s various RASA-related posts and am gradually moving towards a RASA 8/11. Are the horizontal spikes on M45 caused by the cables from the camera ? 
 

Wacky RASA question: is there a RASA-specific barlow out there? It would likely help on smaller DSO’s like planetary nebulae. Being able to observe smaller galaxies and PNs seems the only down-side to the RASAs - would you agree or not?

cheers

Gary

 



#5 SanjeevJoshi

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 10:22 AM

Nice set up.   Great write up and pics!  533 is an amazing cam with RASA 8.  There is something special about all images people take with 533 in general, and RASA 8.

 

As additional input, For finer details and smaller FoV, the 183 MC Pro is so perfect with its small pixel size.

 

My logic was — if I want to zoom down to single arc minute or say go up to 70 / 80 arc mins, I can do that well with 183.

 

533 offers a bigger FoV with bigger pixels.    You miss framing M31 and super large fields like that with 533 but the square panaroma is so cool.   294 does the job for M31 and similar.  Hence I ended up with both 183 and 294.

 

BTW, If you use the 3D printed curved wire frame - the spikes go away but FHWM is increased just a bit.  Your choice.

 

Gary, RASA is a fantastic system.  If you have the ability to keep one outside in a semi permanent type set up, I would go for the 11 given longer term flexibility due to back focus.   8 is ultra portable but has a limited back focus.  This limits options for adding automated filter wheels, other adjusters etc.


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#6 GaryShaw

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 10:36 AM

Thanks Sanjeev-I’m looking for insights and a rationale for selecting one versus the other. 
Gary



#7 biomedchad

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 12:25 PM

Thank you! I’m lucky enough to keep my stuff setup and just roll it out of the garage on castors into the driveway. Fingers crossed we get something like the 183 this year. I’m sure Covid has slowed development. I was fine using flats and the 294 but the 533 just makes things easier and the square format is easier to crop and post to social media or send to friends at a cost of the loss of Fov. I mainly added it for that nice image for my 6 inch rc.

#8 DSO_Viewer

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 01:12 PM

Nice set up.   Great write up and pics!  533 is an amazing cam with RASA 8.  There is something special about all images people take with 533 in general, and RASA 8.

 

As additional input, For finer details and smaller FoV, the 183 MC Pro is so perfect with its small pixel size.

 

My logic was — if I want to zoom down to single arc minute or say go up to 70 / 80 arc mins, I can do that well with 183.

 

533 offers a bigger FoV with bigger pixels.    You miss framing M31 and super large fields like that with 533 but the square panaroma is so cool.   294 does the job for M31 and similar.  Hence I ended up with both 183 and 294.

 

BTW, If you use the 3D printed curved wire frame - the spikes go away but FHWM is increased just a bit.  Your choice.

 

Gary, RASA is a fantastic system.  If you have the ability to keep one outside in a semi permanent type set up, I would go for the 11 given longer term flexibility due to back focus.   8 is ultra portable but has a limited back focus.  This limits options for adding automated filter wheels, other adjusters etc.

Just to make a correction regarding the FOV between the 183 & 533. The FOV is not larger at all with the 533 being 11.3 x 11.3 mm for the chip size and for the 183 9.5 x 14.3 mm. Yes you lose 1.8 mm on the vertical but gain 3 mm on the horizontal with the 183.

 

Steve 



#9 DSO_Viewer

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 01:17 PM

ive been involved with eaa for over 10 years.  ive owned various scopes and a few mounts and many cameras.  mallincams, modded security and webcams..and now these amazing cmos cameras.  eaa is as easy and productive as ever for me and others these days.  last night i observed a dozen or so objects in a few hours and while broadcasting we were all in amazement of the various objects that were pulled in 1 after the other.  the rasa does this extremely fast and with the 533 sensor size very cleanly.  i used the rasa celestron LP filter for the first time to compare to my usual setup with the starizona filter drawer and various filters.  i also use the zwo eaf and NINA for autofocus.  the rest is done in sharpcap 4.0 with sequences to begin and search for objects and plate solvees to center them.  this is a pricey setup but dont let price make you think its harder.  anyone can do this with a bit of time and testing and asking the right questions.  here is m45 and ic1805..both are shot at gain 300 with 30 sec exposures with a total of 5 mins on each object.  only cropped in lightroom.  you could take these images and import them into photoshop or pixinsight and process them even further like i do sometimes.. with eaa you can have your cake and eat most of it too.  enjoy

 

fyi..great colors and color balance out of the celestron rasa LP filter.  it is def worth the investment and it will be hard for me to take it off. ill use my other filters for my second favorite scope..the RC6..a bit more challenging to use but at way less of a cost

Very nice results with your new setup Chad. I have seen others using the RASA 8 with the ASI 183MC and have had amazing results plus with the RASA being a fast scope the exposures were not too long about 30 seconds using the 183 with it's smaller pixels. Having smaller pixels will allow for more zooming/cropping on the smaller objects, but of course a RASA 11 would be nicewink.gif

 

Steve



#10 ReneF

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 03:14 PM

Thanks for your tips.  Soon I will purchase a RASA 8 for EAA and general deep sky astrophotography. Working on what goes with it.  In some YouTube videos, RASA users have large Finder/Tracking scopes, so I am exploring what and why.  One consideration is a dual use of the tracking scope.  Can I package the RASA 8 with say a 60 or 70 sized refractor which can be used for tracking, and also as a stand alone grab and go portable scope.  Comments if this would work, or be of benefit vs buying a smaller tracking scope, or none at all.  In other words while the RASA requirements are a high consideration, dual use of the camera, finder/tracking and filters is also.



#11 GaryShaw

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 03:23 PM

Hi Rene,

 

You don't need a Finder at all for EAA if you're using Plate Solving and for AP, all you need is a simple guidescope and camera something like the ASI120, ASI290 mini or whatever. For filters you'll need a filter drawer since a filter wheel will not work. I've heard good reviews on the Starizona. Enjoy the new RASA!

 

Gary



#12 bips3453

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 03:39 PM

Thanks for your tips.  Soon I will purchase a RASA 8 for EAA and general deep sky astrophotography. Working on what goes with it.  In some YouTube videos, RASA users have large Finder/Tracking scopes, so I am exploring what and why.  One consideration is a dual use of the tracking scope.  Can I package the RASA 8 with say a 60 or 70 sized refractor which can be used for tracking, and also as a stand alone grab and go portable scope.  Comments if this would work, or be of benefit vs buying a smaller tracking scope, or none at all.  In other words while the RASA requirements are a high consideration, dual use of the camera, finder/tracking and filters is also.

 

Guiding is not that crucial for EAA.

(A refractor can be used as guide-scope, would serve dual purpose. But you would need to consider accuracy of your mount for the payload for AP, if you go that route.)



#13 barbarosa

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 03:48 PM

Let me join the chorus of praise. I started out with the RASA8 and the 183, very nice! The 294 also good. Then the 533 another hit. So I bought a 2600Pro which introduces vignetting and may lead you to flats or ROI. The 533/2600 are capable of such a smooth low noise background that one is tempted to do without flats and darks.

 

Celestron filter also great, but have an NBZ filter on order.

 

Here is a mediocre 2600 full sensor image of (forgive me) Orion  followed by a cropped image of the Running Man (degraded to meet forum size limits). With the higher pixel count cameras one can get a passible image of say M81/M82, M106, Leo Triplet, or M1, or a planetary like NGC2438 by zooming. 

 

SharpCap 3.2 Snapshots w/display stretch, stacking exp=30s gain =100

 

b 21_48_14_Capture_00001_WithDisplayStretch.jpg

 

crop 21_48_14_Capture_00001_WithDisplayStretch.jpg

 

 


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#14 GaryShaw

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 04:17 PM

These are terrific. How are the spikes created at the oblique angles...the cable arrangement out front?

Cheers

Gary



#15 biomedchad

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 06:26 PM

Yeah the cable management creates them. I’ll sort it out sometime but it’s fine for now. I also have the nbz filter and it does a great job improving contrast without halos on nearly every star. Little pricey. If I had to only buy one I’d go with the clp for versatility

#16 SanjeevJoshi

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 07:00 PM

Thanks for your tips.  Soon I will purchase a RASA 8 for EAA and general deep sky astrophotography. Working on what goes with it.  In some YouTube videos, RASA users have large Finder/Tracking scopes, so I am exploring what and why.  One consideration is a dual use of the tracking scope.  Can I package the RASA 8 with say a 60 or 70 sized refractor which can be used for tracking, and also as a stand alone grab and go portable scope.  Comments if this would work, or be of benefit vs buying a smaller tracking scope, or none at all.  In other words while the RASA requirements are a high consideration, dual use of the camera, finder/tracking and filters is also.

 

Once you get a RASA, question is what else do you really need!  Ignoring cameras, discussed above ---

 

I use AVX entry level mount.   With an aftermarket 7.5 pound weight from Orion.  With something like RASA you do NOT need a finder, guide scope, starsense or any other gadget.   Just do rough polar, and plate solve.  With thousands of stars visible, plate solving is trivial, and works from within Sharpcap Pro using ASTAP or Astrotortilla.

 

For humidity control, I really love the Pegasus auto-controller with temperature and humidity sensor.   Simply perfect.    The basic roll up dew shield, although i keep thinking i should improve on that some time.

 

A mini PC for mount and camera control.   I recently got a Ryzen powerhouse and it simply rocks.

 

A plastic tupperware box and some 10 dollar 12-V power supplies from Amazon.   I need 4 at 12V (RASA fan, camera fan, Pegasus humidity control, mount) and 1 at 19V for the mini PC.

 

I use Polemaster for polar align.  I got that before I got into EAA, and still love it.  Since i observe from the same spot in the backyard, takes me less than a minute now.

 

A 3 ft long high speed USB 3.0 extender to work with the 6 ft OEM cable from ZWO.

 

A Flatman light box for flats.   Helps with larger sensors.   Takes 2 to 3 mins all in using Sharpcap Pro.

 

A light polution filter -- Celestron makes one for RASA that replaces the clear glass window.   I also got an Optolong Pro to compare.  But that needs a filter adapter, you cannot just place it in the RASA window.

 

A nebula filter if you wish, given the photons you can unleash at F2 with a wide field.   I got the new Quad, makes EAA images look like they belong in an AP folder.

 

A tri bahtinov mask for precise focusing and visual confirmation of focus and collimation / backfocus.

 

Then you can also add after market adapters.  I am currently using the Starizona filter drawer, which gives me choices to use different filters.

 

Some Baader or similar spacer rings.  Backfocus is one of the most critical items of image quality in a fast widefield system.   I use a 0.3mm ring on top of recommended spacing to nail the star quality.   When I add filters, i may need a bit more depending on what i do with the clear glass window - keep or remove.

 

If you like to tinker with imaging quality, a program like CCD Inspector or others to inspect curvature and tilt, most of which is resolved by nailing backfocus.  Very handy.   Take snapshots with Sharpcap Pro and do instant checks on image quality.

 

I am now considering the final step -- auto focusing.  Not because the RASA needs frequent focusing.  For EAA, the focuser is so good, you can set it once and generally be done unless big changes in temp and seeing over a long duration.   But as a final step / improvement in image quality, using the entire star field or a big part of the ROI to nail focus is quite appealing!   Machines can focus better than I think I can manually with a mask.   I am not there yet, just pondering, learning.

 

Hopefully this gives you a perspective of what else you can consider over time!  In reality you need very little to get going -- besides the mount, power supplies, and a PC of some sort to manage the EAA.


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#17 EmeraldHills

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 09:36 PM

You guys are all my heroes. : )



#18 alphatripleplus

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Posted 03 March 2021 - 09:48 AM

Interesting to see all of you using RASAs for EAA.... must be a good trend.smile.gif


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#19 EmeraldHills

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Posted 03 March 2021 - 11:52 AM

Indeed, Errol. Glass-free future. : ) hahahaha



#20 biomedchad

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Posted 03 March 2021 - 05:41 PM

Interesting to see all of you using RASAs for EAA.... must be a good trend.smile.gif

its fast and wide so its super easy to use when paired with the correct sensor.  any sensor can work but you might need flats to smooth it all out. as i said above its kind of a dream setup but dont let the price and fancy words scare you..if you have the dough and want to eaa or image then its a one stop shop



#21 biomedchad

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Posted 03 March 2021 - 05:43 PM

Let me join the chorus of praise. I started out with the RASA8 and the 183, very nice! The 294 also good. Then the 533 another hit. So I bought a 2600Pro which introduces vignetting and may lead you to flats or ROI. The 533/2600 are capable of such a smooth low noise background that one is tempted to do without flats and darks.

 

Celestron filter also great, but have an NBZ filter on order.

 

Here is a mediocre 2600 full sensor image of (forgive me) Orion  followed by a cropped image of the Running Man (degraded to meet forum size limits). With the higher pixel count cameras one can get a passible image of say M81/M82, M106, Leo Triplet, or M1, or a planetary like NGC2438 by zooming. 

 

SharpCap 3.2 Snapshots w/display stretch, stacking exp=30s gain =100

 

attachicon.gifb 21_48_14_Capture_00001_WithDisplayStretch.jpg

 

attachicon.gifcrop 21_48_14_Capture_00001_WithDisplayStretch.jpg

the NBZ has been very good to me so far but its a little late in the season..maybe break it out when the summer nebs come up so im using the CLP for now.  i have some nice images from it though that i cannot post here in EAA



#22 barbarosa

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Posted 05 March 2021 - 04:45 AM

A note about price.

 

One of the nice things about this hobby is that you are welcomed to the club whether you own a $10k scope on a wow! mount or whether you are all in at <$1k and everything was bought used. There are people doing EAA with gear that cost more than some automobiles I was happy to own, and there are some still using the old Sammy 434, and it is all  good. We enjoy what we have and what we do and I think you could not find a finer bunch than those who share the stars.

 

 

People sometimes say that with a scope like the RASA, fast and relatively wide field, you do not need to guide or that you do not need to do a super accurate PA. That I think is true but not completely true. Guiding can get you better stars. Guiding keeps that new hot pixel from making a track. Guiding gives you the option to dither.

 

And guiding is easy, whether you are using a piggybacked 85mm refractor as I sometimes do or as I am at the moment,  a SW 50mm right angle finder converted to a straight through guide scope with a 290 camera.

 

PHD2 with the new multi star guiding does a great job and is dead simple to setup.

 

Like others here, SharpCap Pro 3 or 4 for PA. ASTAP plate solving as needed  and Stellarium to point the mount.

 

In nice weather I sit outside, drink my drink (coffee usually) listen to owls and the coyotes and just enjoy. I used to sit right by the scope, but now I can move around, go lie down on a lounger and in cold wx, sit inside, as I am now and put the show on the big screen.

 

From earlier tonight here is  crop of M1, (RASA 8, ASI2600, Gain 100, Exp 30s). We just let it run on for 2790s before moving to another object, because sometimes you want to linger on a target.

 

Crop Stack_93frames_2790s.jpg


Edited by barbarosa, 05 March 2021 - 04:46 AM.

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#23 SanjeevJoshi

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Posted 05 March 2021 - 09:42 AM

Amen.

 

We mentioned filters earlier, and I am eager to see what people with F2 systems feel about filters for EAA.  My experience so far is that filters help for sure but they also act like a throttle on your fast system.

 

I went for nearly 6 weeks before trying any filter on mine.  I have three - Celestron LPR, Optolong Pro and the new Quad.

 

A couple nights ago under poor seeing conditions, I tested / compared Celestron LPR and Optolong Pro.   First reaction was - golly, my scope is stuck in second gear.    The increase in required exposure time is quite noticeable at least on the lower magnitude objects.   While 3 to 5 seconds is plenty otherwise, I had to use 10s at moderate gain.   The improvements are there.  I rate this comparison too close to call right now and if I absolutely had to pick one, I would go with the Optolong.  Seeing was 5 FHWM and not consistent, so not decisive.

 

Overall I am not quite sure yet how I feel about constantly using LPR or Optolong for EAA with a F2 system.  I live under Bortle 7, bordering toward 8 occasionally skies.   I need to play with this some more.   Eager to hear from others.



#24 DSO_Viewer

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Posted 05 March 2021 - 01:39 PM

A note about price.

 

One of the nice things about this hobby is that you are welcomed to the club whether you own a $10k scope on a wow! mount or whether you are all in at <$1k and everything was bought used. There are people doing EAA with gear that cost more than some automobiles I was happy to own, and there are some still using the old Sammy 434, and it is all  good. We enjoy what we have and what we do and I think you could not find a finer bunch than those who share the stars.

 

 

People sometimes say that with a scope like the RASA, fast and relatively wide field, you do not need to guide or that you do not need to do a super accurate PA. That I think is true but not completely true. Guiding can get you better stars. Guiding keeps that new hot pixel from making a track. Guiding gives you the option to dither.

 

And guiding is easy, whether you are using a piggybacked 85mm refractor as I sometimes do or as I am at the moment,  a SW 50mm right angle finder converted to a straight through guide scope with a 290 camera.

 

PHD2 with the new multi star guiding does a great job and is dead simple to setup.

 

Like others here, SharpCap Pro 3 or 4 for PA. ASTAP plate solving as needed  and Stellarium to point the mount.

 

In nice weather I sit outside, drink my drink (coffee usually) listen to owls and the coyotes and just enjoy. I used to sit right by the scope, but now I can move around, go lie down on a lounger and in cold wx, sit inside, as I am now and put the show on the big screen.

 

From earlier tonight here is  crop of M1, (RASA 8, ASI2600, Gain 100, Exp 30s). We just let it run on for 2790s before moving to another object, because sometimes you want to linger on a target.

 

attachicon.gifCrop Stack_93frames_2790s.jpg

Very nice image of the Crab nebula. For me guiding is the icing on the cake and makes detail pop out so much more when it's pin-point sharp and no drifting.

 

Steve




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