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Astronomy Outreach Events and Organized Star Parties moving forward

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#1 BarrySimon615

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Posted 14 March 2021 - 04:20 PM

Certainly the issue of liability concerns and insurance coverage has been uppermost in the minds of many that host events be it monthly club meetings, outreach events and organized star parties.

 

In the past year many if not virtually all astronomy club meetings and outreach events that they host have been cancelled.  These have been replaced (for the most part) by zoom meetings and a very few smaller star parties and virtual observing sessions.  However these efforts are considered by many as stop-gap measures.  Most if not all long for the day when we can return to normal activities - pre-2020.

 

But can we?  Will we?  Some sceptics predicted that we would not have a vaccine for the current "flavor of the year" virus for at least several years if not many years.  Here we are a year out from when those predictions were voiced and we have had multiple vaccines available to us for several months with more and more people getting vaccinated as we speak.  A few more months and we will have the numbers vaccinated to return to normal activities (for the most part) albeit maybe with prudent mask wearing for awhile and better awareness of how not to spread a virus.

 

Several entities have been anticipating this and are planning on events that they had to put on hold for a year.  Unfortunately some are finding out that the venues where they hoped to hold their events are requiring that the general liability insurance policies that they have should also cover and protect the hosting organization and the venue from claims associated with illness or death associated with the virus.  One notable event to my knowledge has already cancelled their 2021 event because they could not procure insurance that would cover them for virus related claims, so they have said.  So is insurance covering any entity for virus related claims?  Research (see attached link) would indicate that such insurance would be difficult if not impossible to obtain plus any claim would be extremely hard to prove by anyone making an insurance claim.  Would they file for a mild case or even something more than mild but maybe no worse than a stubborn case of the flu?  How could anyone filing a claim prove that what they have or had was contracted at a star party vs. on the trip to the star party - at a gas station, at a motel, at a restaurant, etc., etc.?  

 

I think moving forward  - people just have to be prudent, people should or maybe even have to get vaccinated, and events and their organizers just have to make it plain that in some cases to attend you have to show proof of vaccination and you have to abide by any liability release waiver that you will be required to sign.

 

If people do not abide by these conditions as far as it pertains to the events that amateur astronomers have done in the past and hope to do in the future - those events will indeed become just memories.

 

Barry Simon

 

Please check out the link

 

https://www.theclm.o...vid-19-age/2065


Edited by BarrySimon615, 14 March 2021 - 04:22 PM.


#2 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 14 March 2021 - 04:43 PM

Barry,

I just read the link, and as I understand it, the waivers do not work, because a contact of someone who signed the waiver might be affected.  It looks like probably no major star parties can be held until the virus goes completely away, unless they are willing to accept liability.   This could take years.  I also read on another site that "shot cards" will not be accepted at many places because they are too easily forged, so there might be some kind of official "shot passport" issued in the future.

 

The future for star parties and venues like NEAF looks fairly grim at this time, IMO.


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#3 BarrySimon615

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Posted 14 March 2021 - 08:54 PM

We are holding our annual Deep South Spring Scrimmage in 8 weeks.  Full speed ahead.  It is associated with our Deep South Star Gaze which will celebrate it's 39th year this coming November (every year since 1983).  We have never carried insurance and our venues have either never asked about insurance or do not require it.  We have had what we believe is a good liability waiver since our inception.  Only 1 time did someone inquire about it.  That person balked at the fact that we did not have insurance but required each registrant to sign the liability waiver.  Ultimately he elected to attend

 

I disagree with your speculation that no major star parties can be held until the virus goes completely away.  I do not think it will ever be completely eradicated.  Has tuberculosis been eradicated - no, has polio been eradicated - no, has leprosy been eradicated - no.  They are rare but they are treatable.  While I believe risks will continue, they will be rare and relatively mild given vaccines if taken.

 

We have to continue to do our due diligence but I am basically an optimistic person.  If everyone does the right thing and are realistic about their choices and how bad choices effect others, we will do ok.

 

Barry Simon


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#4 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 15 March 2021 - 09:19 AM

Barry,

What I am getting at is, if insurance covering disease is a requirement, then no star parties will be held.  If that requirement is dropped, then the events can likely go on.  If TSP keeps that requirement for insurance, for example, then it's a goner for good.

 

I commend you for holding your events without depending on some insurance company that probably would be useless anyway.


Edited by John Fitzgerald, 15 March 2021 - 09:33 AM.


#5 bunyon

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Posted 15 March 2021 - 02:56 PM

Are either of you lawyers (I ask sincerely as I am not)? 

 

Have events such as TSP had insurance that would pay for illnesses before? If John F. is right, yeah, it's unlikely that star parties can be held. But that just doesn't hold up to logic. This year, sure. There is a pandemic (still) on and the star party is in a state that, whatever you think about it, hasn't put many mandates (or enforced them) in place, so it might be a risky go.

 

But in 2022 when everyone who wants one can have had a vaccine? When COVID-19 still happens but at low rates? It seems to me that it would fall in with flu and TB and....and all the other diseases that one might get. I have honestly never heard of a venue being sued for a flu outbreak, though I've heard of many flu outbreaks from events. But, as I said, I'm no lawyer. Which is what is needed here I think. 

 

(I'm excepting events where a disease can be traced directly to the organizers/caterers such as food poisoning, unhygienic practices, etc. If organizers of events can be held liable for people with communicable illness attending, it's a lot more than star parties that will be in trouble).


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#6 BarrySimon615

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Posted 15 March 2021 - 03:52 PM

No, I am not a lawyer, but I have talked to quite a few and I have done a fair amount of reading on the subject.

 

Paul, perhaps you hit upon something when you say that 2022 might be different when virtually everyone who wants a vaccine will have had one (or two).  A time when we are under the protection of herd immunity and our antibodies are ready to handle COVID.  I too think that honestly a venue can not be held responsible for a virus outbreak (but they likely could be sued).  Even if they win  (the venue and/or the event organizers), they would be saddled with bad publicity.  But 2022 might be good - like falling radiation levels if you will.  So insurance or not, liability waivers or not, perhaps the best way to start early with events like star parties is to require documentation that gives the event organizers the confidence that they can proceed with caution.  I think the requirement of providing documentation as to vaccine status is a valid request particularly in regions or states where enforcement and adherence to reasonable mandates has been less than ideally followed.

 

Barry Simon


Edited by BarrySimon615, 16 March 2021 - 06:24 AM.


#7 George N

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Posted 15 March 2021 - 04:09 PM

I'll leave liability insurance to the lawyers - but - I will note that there is (was?) a push for a Federal law limiting legal action by someone getting the disease against any venue where the person was infected - mostly aimed to protect employers.

 

Stellafane 2021 -- There are no indications that it is canceled.

 

Cherry Springs Star Party 2021 ( at Cherry Springs State Park, in PA ) -- according to their FaceBook page (https://www.facebook...pringsStarParty), as of a month ago, the organizers are still considering their options - and planning for "party as normal", or limited attendance with limits/elimination on the very popular presentations that bring people together, raffle, food vendor, or -- it all depends on PA Parks regulations changing (right now, no 'events' can be held in PA parks).

 

Meanwhile - as of a few days ago - the PA State Parks website lists CSSP 2021 as happening June 10 thru June 13 - and notes only star party attendees will have access to the "Astronomy Field". See: https://www.dcnr.pa....es/default.aspx


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#8 bunyon

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Posted 15 March 2021 - 05:40 PM

June and August are likely (hopefully) going to different than early may.
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#9 Augustus

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Posted 15 March 2021 - 06:12 PM

I think that we will be back to normal by mid-summer at worst. I can't comment on the insurance stuff as I don't know much about it.

 

Overall I'd say the odds are pretty good for anything smaller like CSSP happening in the June-August time frame. Anything big being held before June is out. The big stuff in the late summer/early fall really just comes down to when they have to make the go/no go decision IMO. A lot of preparation obviously has to go into these things - and in the case of Stellafane for instance, I could see them actually losing money by holding a reduced-capacity etc. convention, so if they think there's so much as a chance of that being the case when we hit May or so then they'll probably cancel.



#10 Ron359

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Posted 16 March 2021 - 10:13 PM

As others, I'm no insurance expert, but as former officer and pres. of large non-profit astro 'club I had to 'deal' with the liability and insurance issues.   'I don't see why there should be any confusion over liability insurance v. the COVID pandemic.    

 

Its pretty simple;  Something much bigger than 'club insurance' is Travel insurance you might buy for big vacations.  Travel Insurance NEVER covers;  war,  natural disasters, riots, insurrections and PANDEMICS.   Those are all unpredictable events with no real basis in probability of occurrence.   You can get coverage for health emergencies and emergency transport out of some foreign country.  But not pandemics.  The same is true for non-profit Liability insurance.   Covers lots of stuff related to "simple negligence",  but not gross negligence or have ever covered or will ever cover pandemic diseases.   You can look up the difference between simple and gross negligence if interested.   

 

So,  once the death and infection rates drop below the rates that the WHO and CDC define as a "global pandemic"and they declare it "over".  That happens when the infection rates are like measles or flu,   everything will return to "normal" as far as club liability.  And when that happens all depends on fast we (U.S) gets to "herd immunity" through stopping the spread of the virus and its new variants with vaccines, masks, distancing etc.  The less those things are done, the longer this will 'drag-on'.  Its now a race against evolution of new variants because the virus only mutates if it can reproduce by spreading.  Its basic evolutionary science.  


Edited by Ron359, 16 March 2021 - 10:28 PM.

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#11 BarrySimon615

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Posted 18 March 2021 - 11:19 AM

Star Party Season is on the verge of cranking up.  I know of one major cancellation - TSP; but what about the others?  I know some plans are tentative, dependent upon venue concerns, registration limits, etc., etc.  Anyone else reached go/no go decision date yet?  What has been decided?

 

Barry Simon



#12 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 18 March 2021 - 11:24 AM

We are hoping to go to Okie-Tex, but not interested if it is a cut down event with no vendors or daytime activities. 


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#13 Alex McConahay

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Posted 19 March 2021 - 08:51 AM

We can speculate all we want on what should be, but remember, very, very few of the people running star parties own the venue. It is very likely the vendor rules that matter, not what the astronomy club/star party orgainzers want.

 

Secondly, if insurance is required, it becomes a cost of the star party, just like the extra porta-potties, meal service, or whatever.  It can be rolled into the cost of admission. 

 

It is too early to speculate on what all will be happening when this tide rolls over and infection levels are back to near normal. 

 

Alex 


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#14 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 19 March 2021 - 10:01 AM

Star Party Season is on the verge of cranking up. 

<...snip...>

TSP is not really cancelled.  It has been renamed the Wes-Tex Star Party, and will be sponsored by Prude Ranch on the original dates scheduled by the former organizers. 



#15 edwincjones

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 04:22 AM

so maybe a lawyer question, but what would happen if a club were sued?

 

few clubs have deep pockets, going at all the members/attendees  would be difficult

(if I try to think like a lawyer this seems like a lot of work with little return,

I do read John Grisham)

I would think having reasonable rules and enforcing them would be the best defense

 

we worry about this but have law suites  happened in the past against star parties?

 the outcomes?

 

edj


Edited by edwincjones, 20 March 2021 - 04:51 AM.


#16 Alex McConahay

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 10:57 AM

edj,

 

That is an important point. I agree with you.  And it is one of the reasons most clubs should not worry too much about being sued. There are not a lot of deep pockets among astronomy clubs, the people who put on these parties. So, they are not generally a target for nuisance law suits. 

 

(There are exceptions, though. Some clubs own property. One at least has substantial income from an event they put on.)

 

More importantly, the VENUES may have deep pockets, and that is why they have those rules that the clubs have to worry about. In one conference I put on, I had to put up a bond for a million dollars before signing a contract with the conference center. 

 

And, nuisance lawsuits do exist. 

 

Alex


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#17 BarrySimon615

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 11:35 AM

TSP is not really cancelled.  It has been renamed the Wes-Tex Star Party, and will be sponsored by Prude Ranch on the original dates scheduled by the former organizers. 

I beg to differ on this point.  TSP has been cancelled, at least an "on-site" TSP.  What will be held at Prude Ranch as you said is called the Wes-Tex Star Party and it's organizers are the Prude Ranch people.  I believe the Texas Star Party organizers are doing a virtual/on-line substitute program.  They are encouraging their attendees to also consider their sister star party - El Dorado, in the fall.  Some may consider the Wes-Tex Star Party to be a good substitute and that may be so for those who attend for the location but it will be offering far less as compared to what the Texas Star Party usually has to offer.

 

Note - the Cherry Springs Star Party and the Black Forest Star Party are both held at the same venue but they have different organizers, otherwise every year if the organization were the same I imagine they would be called one name or the other with either "Summer or Fall" as the first word in the name.  (Or given the dates when they were supposed to be held last year - Summer Solstice and Autumnal Equinox could have been added to the names.)

 

Barry Simon


Edited by BarrySimon615, 20 March 2021 - 11:40 AM.


#18 Ron359

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 11:56 AM

edj,

 

That is an important point. I agree with you. 

<...snip...>

"What me worry"?  This opinion should be taken with a lot of salt grains.  The possibility of being sued is why clubs and venues should have liability insurance.   As noted most clubs do not have 'deep-pockets' and therefore cannot afford to hire a law firm to defend themselves even from 'frivolous' lawsuits much less one that may have a real issue.   Just hiring a lawyer or law firm at hundreds of $$$$ per hour would mean the end of most clubs treasury and the club.If its a non-profit, it likely means bankruptcy and dispersal of whatever assets they have.   That doesn't even get into personal liability of the officers or owners if the club or venue owners have no insurance covering officers or owners, who could be sued individually and face losing savings and homes etc.  As I used to tell our board members,  'you don't even want to think about testing your theory that you can't or won't be sued.'  

 

  As mom used to yell at us; 'Its all fun and games at the star party until someone looks at the Sun w/o a solar filter or trips over a tripod and puts an eye out....'   



#19 BarrySimon615

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 11:57 AM

And, nuisance lawsuits do exist. 

 

Alex

This is indeed a concern.  Most lawsuits would be nuisance lawsuits at best.  I believe the large majority of those that may have some sort of injury or equipment damage at an event would dismiss it as being their own fault or would at least consider the risk they take when attending an event, be it a night or weekend trip to a club observing site or to a star party where they paid to attend.  I know on at least one occasion and possibly more occasions at the Texas Star Party some telescopes were either knocked over or picked up and slammed down by dust devils.  I really have no idea what the outcome to any of that was but had it have been me that had my telescope and mount damaged I would have briefly considered the spectrum of options that I had.  I would have quickly rejected all of them save the fact that this would be the inherent risk of attending.  Basically it would have been no one's fault except "Mother Nature", so I would have ultimately just moved on and replaced or fixed the damaged parts myself.  Others, of course, may have tried to seek monetary compensation via a lawsuit.

 

I think too that if I were put in a position where I had to put up a bond for 1 million dollars before signing a contract to host an event, that venue would be rejected as being not viable based upon this condition alone.  Ultimately if it comes to not being able to do any event without agreeing to something like this, I would be out of the game.

 

Barry Simon



#20 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 02:06 PM

The Delaware Valley Amateur Astronomers public star parties are starting again under a number of restrictions.  Participants must register and must observe only with their own binoculars.

 

https://dvaa.org/con...item_id=1378034



#21 George N

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 03:23 PM

This is indeed a concern.  Most lawsuits would be nuisance lawsuits at best. 

<...snip...>

In some cases "the club" *is* the land owner - like Stellafane for example - where, since my first Convention in 1995, I've heard of - two people being hit by autos - one during the day, one at night - including a teen girl who needed an ambulance. I personally saw a driverless auto ( failed transmission lock-up ) run down the hill - took out a canopy tent - almost hitting someone sitting in it - just missed taking out my Obsession 20 - hit someone's tent, which grabbed the wheels and turned the vehicle into a ditch - otherwise it would have hit 'the bunkhouse'. If there had been a person in that tent, they would have been 'hamburger'. ( The auto owner took the tent owner to town and bought him new camping gear - and Stellafane almost immediately installed blocking barriers to prevent a repeat). My biggest fear at Stellafane has always been a grass fire in dry conditions - with 2,000 people in a field with only one dirt road in/out, no major water supply. While at Cherry Springs State Park (non-star party time) I was near someone who broke their leg walking into a 'chuck hole' in the dark, and I walked right into a very dark tent without seeing it in the dark (fell, but no injury) - and then another guy did the same thing! We added glow-in-the-dark tape to the dark tents. A fellow died at the WSP - but that was from 'natural causes'. Stuff happens.

 

If I fall off someone's Big-Dob ladder and break my neck - my wife will probably sue the property owner, the event organizers, and the Dob owner, the Dob maker, the ladder maker, etc -- or she will give them all a reward for getting rid of me!  wink.gif

 

BTW - the Astronomical League does offer a liability insurance program/policy for member clubs - I'm not sure if it covers catching covid: https://www.astrolea...al-league-clubs

 

While it is of probably minor concern - there certainly is a possibility that a telescope owner could get sued if someone in injured using your equipment - but the bigger fish would be the telescope maker, property owner, etc, simply because they have more $$. There also is such a thing as personal liability insurance.


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#22 edwincjones

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Posted 21 March 2021 - 05:07 AM

a point for/against  insurance

 

if, in the unlikely event of being sued, the insurance company would/should provide  experienced legal defense waytogo.gif​ 

but for the now deeper pocket of insurancethumbsdown3.gif

 

question.gif

 

edj


Edited by edwincjones, 21 March 2021 - 05:23 AM.


#23 kennyrichmond

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Posted 21 March 2021 - 07:06 AM

Some clarification might be needed here.  A nuisance lawsuit is a claim that objects to a public or private nuisance.  You know, like an objection to a neighbor or a municipality negligently illuminating your property.

 

A frivolous lawsuit is one that has no merit, one that is based upon invented or uninvestigated facts, or one that has no precedent, or accepted scientific basis such as a claim against an astrologer whose forecast didn't pan out.  While defendant's publicists frequently argue that a lawsuit is frivolous, the reality is that no lawyer would risk filing one because the official sanction/suspension and assessment of punitive damages by a court, together with a non-renewal notice from a malpractice carrier, has rather undesirable effects on professional careers.

 

The outdoor aspect of a star party, together with the impossibility of proving where Covid was acquired would render a Covid claim frivolous.  It does not matter that insurance carriers won't cover Covid claims - they won't cover astrology claims either. ( note: contact tracing is legally a statistical abstraction, incapable of reliably identifying a specific source of infection among mobile people.)

 

Ken



#24 bunyon

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Posted 21 March 2021 - 07:48 AM

I'm not a lawyer (I say over and over) but the one worrisome thing I see for lawsuits was pointed out by someone above. Right now, the CDC officially states that we are in a pandemic. So I could see a basis (that makes sense for a layman) for a lawsuit being that an organization hosted a gathering against official medical advice. If that holds any water, I can understand cancelling.

 

Once the CDC lifts the pandemic status (and they will, at some point), there isn't anymore to fear from a covid lawsuit than a flu lawsuit or a food poisoning lawsuit. 

 

 

In terms of actual covid spread, I think the astronomy end of a star party would be very, very low risk. Outdoors, a bit of space between folks - even sharing a scope  you don't stand on top of each other. Spread via surfaces has been found to be very low. 

 

But star parties often entail (Covid) dangerous events:  indoor dining, showers, talks, etc. Those would be a bad idea, lawsuits or no, during covid. I think the compromise of star party but no services like that, so that we're there observing outdoors and responsible for our own food and entertainment, is a good one.

 

Of course, that doesn't suit everyone. I go to star parties for the skies and chance to leave my gear set up for days at a time. I don't usually go to many talks and, um, probably don't shower as much as I should. So I'd be fine sleeping all day and observing all night and limiting my socialization to distanced shouts of glee at fine sights in my eyepiece. I understand that doesn't sound appealing to a lot of you who go as much for the social aspect as the observational. 



#25 kennyrichmond

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Posted 21 March 2021 - 08:21 AM

This is America where everyone is free to worry about anything they want.

 

Ken


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