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Seriously considering Vaonis Vespera

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#1 GSBass

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 10:24 AM

reasoning:
1}

price point, 1500.00 , that’s pretty low and takes away a lot of criticisms of the evoscope and Stellina 

2)

does not pretend to be a telescope, does not even have an eyepiece, it’s simply an arm chair imaging device

3) equipment

A) 462C , I have this chip, it’s great and works well in infrared also

B) yes it’s only 50mm but so is the redcat, it’s the same optical design, flat field f4, sounds like they are not skimping

4) filters.... unsure how it’s threaded but 52mm filters are a common size...so a thread adapter should make filters cheap and easy to find, I already have ir filters in this size

5) sun observing.... it’s not something I do but I think I might if I can set this on the porch and do it inside, might be cool to watch some live solar flare action

6) one trick pony, I may consider this as a positive, I have nice equipment for visual use and pretty great lunar and planetary photography but my system does not excel in dso even with a good bit of effort

7)education, no doubt you will learn exploring through the app similar to how sky safari teaches us

 

In closing...1500, kinda worth it even if you just decided to call it your solar scope.... hard to criticize at that price point .... and if it’s a flop,disconnect the tube, paint it red mount it on your scope and name it kitty, then you only lost 650 ;)

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#2 Brainebula

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 12:55 PM

reasoning:
1}

price point, 1500.00 , that’s pretty low and takes away a lot of criticisms of the evoscope and Stellina 

2)

does not pretend to be a telescope, does not even have an eyepiece, it’s simply an arm chair imaging device

3) equipment

A) 462C , I have this chip, it’s great and works well in infrared also

B) yes it’s only 50mm but so is the redcat, it’s the same optical design, flat field f4, sounds like they are not skimping

4) filters.... unsure how it’s threaded but 52mm filters are a common size...so a thread adapter should make filters cheap and easy to find, I already have ir filters in this size

5) sun observing.... it’s not something I do but I think I might if I can set this on the porch and do it inside, might be cool to watch some live solar flare action

6) one trick pony, I may consider this as a positive, I have nice equipment for visual use and pretty great lunar and planetary photography but my system does not excel in dso even with a good bit of effort

7)education, no doubt you will learn exploring through the app similar to how sky safari teaches us

 

In closing...1500, kinda worth it even if you just decided to call it your solar scope.... hard to criticize at that price point .... and if it’s a flop,disconnect the tube, paint it red mount it on your scope and name it kitty, then you only lost 650 wink.gif

Awesome power in such a humble package: 

 

https://twitter.com/...9904128/photo/1

 

As I become more familiar with comparing visual observation to AP, I'm realizing how much we miss when live viewing and how much time is wasted in the setup. It all makes me wonder how many people actually will be directly viewing through optics in 5 years vs. whether it'll all be digital with very sensitive, inexpensive hi-res sensors. 

 

But I read that Vaonis is not actually shipping the Vespera until 2022.


Edited by Brainebula, 06 April 2021 - 01:15 PM.


#3 GSBass

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 01:05 PM

It’s inexpensive enough to join the arsenal and judging from photos they would be acceptable to my eyes

Awesome power in such a humble package: 

 

https://twitter.com/...9904128/photo/1



#4 Brainebula

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 01:16 PM

It’s inexpensive enough to join the arsenal and judging from photos they would be acceptable to my eyes

Absolutrely. The only problem is the year-long wait for it! 


Edited by Brainebula, 06 April 2021 - 01:17 PM.


#5 descott12

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 01:17 PM

 

5) sun observing.... it’s not something I do but I think I might if I can set this on the porch and do it inside, might be cool to watch some live solar flare action

 

I am not sure where this came from...??? To see solar flares you need a dedicated H alpha scope, a quark or some expensive etalons that will not fit on this scope. A standard nighttime Ha filter will not work and you will destroy your eyes and scope if you try it.

At best, you could fit this with a  solar film for white light solar viewing but this will not show solar flares.

 

But i do like this one much better then the Stellina which I think just looked pretty ridiculous. This has much better design and form.


Edited by descott12, 06 April 2021 - 01:32 PM.


#6 GSBass

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 01:31 PM

I went ahead and created a Stellina account so I could check out how it works, seems pretty slick, it gives recommendations of what is visible and gives you a heads up how long it will take for a “completed” image..... not breaking any laws of physics here, majority of dso is listed around 60 minutes, brighter stuff 30 and dim stuff 2 hours.... that may be the main difference in image quality instead of amping the light to give immediate glee they are processing it correctly..... I saw a question about dark frames... it apparently part of the algorithm to keep tabs on sensor noise and subtract it out as it goes, someone else asked about the field derotator absent in the coming scope... it’s also done in software, I think they are limiting each shot to 10 seconds



#7 GSBass

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 01:34 PM

You can’t record solar flares with a normal scope stacked with HA? I thought that’s what a solar scope was

I am not sure where this came from...??? To see solar flares you need a dedicated H alpha scope, a quark or some expensive etalons that will not fit on this scope. A standard nighttime Ha filter will not work and you will destroy your eyes and scope if you try it.

At best, you could fit this with a  solar film for white light solar viewing but this will not show solar flares.

 

But i do like this one much better then the Stellina which I think just looked pretty ridiculous. This has much better design and form.



#8 Brainebula

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 01:35 PM

I went ahead and created a Stellina account so I could check out how it works, seems pretty slick, it gives recommendations of what is visible and gives you a heads up how long it will take for a “completed” image..... not breaking any laws of physics here, majority of dso is listed around 60 minutes, brighter stuff 30 and dim stuff 2 hours.... that may be the main difference in image quality instead of amping the light to give immediate glee they are processing it correctly..... I saw a question about dark frames... it apparently part of the algorithm to keep tabs on sensor noise and subtract it out as it goes, someone else asked about the field derotator absent in the coming scope... it’s also done in software, I think they are limiting each shot to 10 seconds

I downloaded the Stellina "manual" and almost fell off the floor. Here are the instructions:

 

Connecting to Stellina

  • Once switched on, Stellina creates its own Wi-Fi network.
  • To connect, first download the "Stellinapp" app from the App Store or Google Play. Go to www.vaonis.com to find the list of compatible devices.
  • Activate your Wi-Fi connection and then connect to "MyStellina-XXXXX".

Control from the mobile app

  • Start the mobile app and let yourself be guided by the tutorial.
  • The 5 main steps are:

- Initialization

- Star choice

- Object aiming and fine tuning

- Stargazing

- Image backup and sharing

 

Stopping Stellina

  • To turn off the instrument, press the On/Off button on the side of the instrument for 2 seconds. The button will then turn red until Stellina has powered down.


#9 GSBass

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 01:46 PM

It very well could go that way for DSO but I think planetary, moon and brighter dso will continue to be old school simply because of how much fun it is to explore directly.... having said that though, no doubt these kinds of devices will be released for solar system eventually but they can’t break physics, no way a 50mm or even a 80mm will be able to record the detail I get with my 180mm.... just like I can compete with people snapping Jupiter through an 11”

Awesome power in such a humble package: 

 

https://twitter.com/...9904128/photo/1

 

As I become more familiar with comparing visual observation to AP, I'm realizing how much we miss when live viewing and how much time is wasted in the setup. It all makes me wonder how many people actually will be directly viewing through optics in 5 years vs. whether it'll all be digital with very sensitive, inexpensive hi-res sensors. 

 

But I read that Vaonis is not actually shipping the Vespera until 2022.



#10 GSBass

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 01:48 PM

Btw they committed to getting the Kickstarter folks theirs by Christmas, probably next spring for me if I order today

It very well could go that way for DSO but I think planetary, moon and brighter dso will continue to be old school simply because of how much fun it is to explore directly.... having said that though, no doubt these kinds of devices will be released for solar system eventually but they can’t break physics, no way a 50mm or even a 80mm will be able to record the detail I get with my 180mm.... just like I can compete with people snapping Jupiter through an 11”



#11 descott12

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 02:00 PM

You can’t record solar flares with a normal scope stacked with HA? I thought that’s what a solar scope was

The Ha filters in a solar scope are very special and very expensive. Yes, if you have the correct equipment, you can see some amazing things. I have a Lunt 50 mm Ha scope and it is awesome but Ha solar viewing/imaging is an entirely different thing than just a standard Ha filter that we use at night.



#12 Brainebula

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 02:10 PM

It very well could go that way for DSO but I think planetary, moon and brighter dso will continue to be old school simply because of how much fun it is to explore directly.... having said that though, no doubt these kinds of devices will be released for solar system eventually but they can’t break physics, no way a 50mm or even a 80mm will be able to record the detail I get with my 180mm.... just like I can compete with people snapping Jupiter through an 11”

I'm more interested in competing with the barebones viewing I've done myself. I am only able to set up my rig for viewing maybe once a week, so it takes the better part of an hour just to make several trips back and forth to lug everything to my pad in the yard, put it all together, level the rig, balance, and align with fine tuning, and that's without any AP functionality at all!

 

So I'm thinking it might make sense to spend a hot $1400 to do it all in a more casual, automated way, to at least make an entry into AP so that I can get started. I can see how that would be a far quicker way to get experience, learn the limitations, and maybe it would give me an incentive to upgrade to better gear. I'm quite sure there would be a market for a pre-owned "like new" Vespera for a couple hundred bucks under list and zero waiting time. 

 

I might even do that with the Stellina which has a far shorter lead time and significantly longer feature list...


Edited by Brainebula, 06 April 2021 - 02:11 PM.

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#13 GSBass

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 02:13 PM

Thanks for that, still something to consider even if it’s big bucks if it ends up being a good scope for that.... just thinking it might be enjoyable to set up and utilize wirelessly that way

The Ha filters in a solar scope are very special and very expensive. Yes, if you have the correct equipment, you can see some amazing things. I have a Lunt 50 mm Ha scope and it is awesome but Ha solar viewing/imaging is an entirely different thing than just a standard Ha filter that we use at night.



#14 GSBass

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 06:37 PM

Reading through all the literature, I see no mention if ir or ir cut filters, I wrote them to see but strongly suspect they have put a ir/cut filter internally or coated one of the lens elements..... I don’t see it as a deal breaker but it would be a shame to place this limit on a system that is optimized for ir by incorporating the 462c. Perhaps too complicated for the masses or too much work for the algorithms to adjust exposures for those wavelengths..... it’s also notable they are going to try hard to keep their filters proprietary, speaking in terms of the scope recognizing their oem filters.... that part would be bad as far as saving money.... guessing their filters will be sky high


Edited by GSBass, 06 April 2021 - 06:40 PM.


#15 jprideaux

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 05:16 AM

The Vespera can take filters but due to the need of a proprietary filter holder, they will need to be purchased from Vaonis. Vaonis will be selling basically 2” filters that are mounted in a special filter holder that snaps into a recessed place in front of the scope. So instead of the filter going in the light-train after the scope, the filters go in front of the scope. They will offer a solar filter but it will just be their version of solar film (or perhaps glass) that just lets you see sun-spots. Not the fancy and expensive solar Ha filter letting you see more detail on the sun spots and also flares. There will also be an optional due heater for extra cost. An optional backpack for convenient transport for extra cost. I asked them if they would be willing to make available the STL file of their proprietary filter holder so enthuiests could 3D print their own and try 2” filters that Vaonis does not offer. They responded that due to the optical precision needed, not just any 2” filter would work well... and made no mention if they would be willing to make available an STL file. They do plan on making available besides the solar filter, a light-pollution filter, and separate emission nebula filters: Ha, sodium, oxygen. It would be nice since the Vespera has a color camera for Vaonus to also offer some kind of duo (or trio) band all-in one filter instead of the emission bands separately. I’ve asked them about this a couple times so hopefully they know that there may be interest for such a filter.
So anyway, although the $1500 price-tag looks nice, many would want to also get some of the optional extras which will push the combined price up higher. Unlike the Stellina, there is no ability to rotate the camera physically to frame the object better on the sensor. Although, they will be coming out with a mosaic option (all in software) to alow the stitching together of images to cover a larger potion of the sky. For example, that would be useful for the Androneda galaxy.

Edited by jprideaux, 07 April 2021 - 05:19 AM.

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#16 Tiago Ferreira

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 06:12 AM

I didn't buy a stellina/evscope because of the price. I was aware of vespera but 1 year or more was not acceptable to me (i thought it was planned for Dec 2021 at the time). I like to buy and receive it fast.

One of this devices would be a very nice complement to my dob and i was strongly tempted to buy one.

At the end i've decided to try EAA and i've managed to do it using the nonstandard set up i've already got and just had to buy a camera. Actually i've ended buying 2, the zwo224 for planets and small objects and the zwo294 for larger objects and also to allow a better live stacking process with my imperfect setup.

So i went with a cheaper solution, through EAA path, which got me in having a very good visual set up and an acceptable EAA setup for all kind of objects without having that big time gap between capture and final image that AP has.

It's been a while that i am on all those devices facebook groups to follow daily and closely the pictures and the issues that costumers have and i will not discuss.

The thing is, for me it has to be always as a complement because i have already what i need and the most important thing is that whatever future generations path will be (imaging is nowadays a quite obvious path) NOTHING, and i insist NOTHING, neither EAA neither AP, neither stellina's neither whatever high tech monitor can replace for me the pleasure to observe real photons with my eyes through an eyepiece. What a difference the beautiful objects with an eyepiece. No cluster full of real bright and shiny stars can be replaced with any device that place them on a monitor. None (at least for now...).

So, an excellent complement a device like that, specially at or below vespera planned prices.



#17 GSBass

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 07:06 AM

It’s the statement that the system will recognize the filter that has me wondering, other than that I could fashion a holder out of cardboard if I needed to, we will see, I don’t really buy their explanation, I think it is simply a profit decision and these filters may be 200+

The Vespera can take filters but due to the need of a proprietary filter holder, they will need to be purchased from Vaonis. Vaonis will be selling basically 2” filters that are mounted in a special filter holder that snaps into a recessed place in front of the scope. So instead of the filter going in the light-train after the scope, the filters go in front of the scope. They will offer a solar filter but it will just be their version of solar film (or perhaps glass) that just lets you see sun-spots. Not the fancy and expensive solar Ha filter letting you see more detail on the sun spots and also flares. There will also be an optional due heater for extra cost. An optional backpack for convenient transport for extra cost. I asked them if they would be willing to make available the STL file of their proprietary filter holder so enthuiests could 3D print their own and try 2” filters that Vaonis does not offer. They responded that due to the optical precision needed, not just any 2” filter would work well... and made no mention if they would be willing to make available an STL file. They do plan on making available besides the solar filter, a light-pollution filter, and separate emission nebula filters: Ha, sodium, oxygen. It would be nice since the Vespera has a color camera for Vaonus to also offer some kind of duo (or trio) band all-in one filter instead of the emission bands separately. I’ve asked them about this a couple times so hopefully they know that there may be interest for such a filter.
So anyway, although the $1500 price-tag looks nice, many would want to also get some of the optional extras which will push the combined price up higher. Unlike the Stellina, there is no ability to rotate the camera physically to frame the object better on the sensor. Although, they will be coming out with a mosaic option (all in software) to alow the stitching together of images to cover a larger potion of the sky. For example, that would be useful for the Androneda galaxy.



#18 GSBass

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 07:14 AM

I suppose it’s just a risk of being in a back order situation when these things are finally in the wild, I’m not in love with the idea of them keeping my money for an entire year and who knows what other products are in the pipeline, but no doubt the Vespera is the breakthrough product that ensures other companies start developing similar products, I think they were only trying to raise 150k and ended up with 2.5 million

I didn't buy a stellina/evscope because of the price. I was aware of vespera but 1 year or more was not acceptable to me (i thought it was planned for Dec 2021 at the time). I like to buy and receive it fast.

One of this devices would be a very nice complement to my dob and i was strongly tempted to buy one.

At the end i've decided to try EAA and i've managed to do it using the nonstandard set up i've already got and just had to buy a camera. Actually i've ended buying 2, the zwo224 for planets and small objects and the zwo294 for larger objects and also to allow a better live stacking process with my imperfect setup.

So i went with a cheaper solution, through EAA path, which got me in having a very good visual set up and an acceptable EAA setup for all kind of objects without having that big time gap between capture and final image that AP has.

It's been a while that i am on all those devices facebook groups to follow daily and closely the pictures and the issues that costumers have and i will not discuss.

The thing is, for me it has to be always as a complement because i have already what i need and the most important thing is that whatever future generations path will be (imaging is nowadays a quite obvious path) NOTHING, and i insist NOTHING, neither EAA neither AP, neither stellina's neither whatever high tech monitor can replace for me the pleasure to observe real photons with my eyes through an eyepiece. What a difference the beautiful objects with an eyepiece. No cluster full of real bright and shiny stars can be replaced with any device that place them on a monitor. None (at least for now...).

So, an excellent complement a device like that, specially at or below vespera planned prices.



#19 Tiago Ferreira

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 07:30 AM

I suppose it’s just a risk of being in a back order situation when these things are finally in the wild, I’m not in love with the idea of them keeping my money for an entire year and who knows what other products are in the pipeline, but no doubt the Vespera is the breakthrough product that ensures other companies start developing similar products, I think they were only trying to raise 150k and ended up with 2.5 million

Oh, no, i was not talking about the risk. Of course it exists but i think is so low that worth it if one knows for sure what really want.

Was the waiting that i didn't want to have. I almost bought a stellina, the price stopped me (and other secondary things but price the most). With the Vespera was just the waiting time.

From what you said you've already choose that path, nice. Check their facebook group (if you didn't already), those guys expose a lot from their experience, pictures and issues and i've seen guys experiencing and trying their other astronomy stuff on those devices to improve it.

In the future i'm sure i will see you posting here on CN having loads of fun with that device.



#20 GSBass

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 02:55 PM

I’ve banned Facebook, dropped it back in January, a little too big brotherish for me.... knew for a long time but finally walked away

Oh, no, i was not talking about the risk. Of course it exists but i think is so low that worth it if one knows for sure what really want.

Was the waiting that i didn't want to have. I almost bought a stellina, the price stopped me (and other secondary things but price the most). With the Vespera was just the waiting time.

From what you said you've already choose that path, nice. Check their facebook group (if you didn't already), those guys expose a lot from their experience, pictures and issues and i've seen guys experiencing and trying their other astronomy stuff on those devices to improve it.

In the future i'm sure i will see you posting here on CN having loads of fun with that device.


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#21 descott12

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 04:05 PM

I’ve banned Facebook, dropped it back in January, a little too big brotherish for me.... knew for a long time but finally walked away

Good for you! I was never on it but would have dropped it too.


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#22 GSBass

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 04:58 PM

Now days I hang out here and belong to a few groups on MeWe, hoping more people start gravitating to places that take privacy seriously.... or at the very least not act like they have a government role... worlds gone crazy

Good for you! I was never on it but would have dropped it too.


Edited by GSBass, 07 April 2021 - 04:59 PM.


#23 alphatripleplus

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 07:27 PM

Everyone, let's get back on topic please.



#24 jprideaux

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 10:14 PM

It’s the statement that the system will recognize the filter that has me wondering...


That may be the case. It is possible that each filter has some kind of identification code so that once you snap it in place the system knows which one is there and adjusts internal parameters accordingly.

Vaonis has in their roadmap plans for a manual mode only for the Stellina and they want to keep the Vespera limited to just an automatic mode. If they keep with that decision, I think it will be a shame. Having a manual mode where the user could “play around” with their own filters, single exposure times, etc would merely be something to open up in the software and may make the device more attractive to some people that might like to experiment or use it in somewhat unorthodox ways.

It might end up being possible to “trick” the system by putting on your own filter that the system doesn’t know it’s there and benefit from it anyway. It looks to me like an ideal case for someone to use some 3D modeling software and come up with some kind of “good enough” filter holder that can snap in just like the Vaonis ones. Then if someone already has a collection of filters, they would not have to buy them twice. And use the ones they have in other scopes as well.
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#25 GSBass

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 11:13 PM

I did not think about manual mode, preset exposure/gain would likely defeat any hackery we could do.... I understand their goal to make it work for the uneducated, I guess I’m fine with it, I still have all my other gear if I want to image differently.... being a one trick pony is cool as long as it does that trick well

That may be the case. It is possible that each filter has some kind of identification code so that once you snap it in place the system knows which one is there and adjusts internal parameters accordingly.

Vaonis has in their roadmap plans for a manual mode only for the Stellina and they want to keep the Vespera limited to just an automatic mode. If they keep with that decision, I think it will be a shame. Having a manual mode where the user could “play around” with their own filters, single exposure times, etc would merely be something to open up in the software and may make the device more attractive to some people that might like to experiment or use it in somewhat unorthodox ways.

It might end up being possible to “trick” the system by putting on your own filter that the system doesn’t know it’s there and benefit from it anyway. It looks to me like an ideal case for someone to use some 3D modeling software and come up with some kind of “good enough” filter holder that can snap in just like the Vaonis ones. Then if someone already has a collection of filters, they would not have to buy them twice. And use the ones they have in other scopes as well.




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