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Woosh! And it's gone!

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#1 RichA

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 11:52 PM

https://www.cloudyni...towaway-92f665/

 

 



#2 TOMDEY

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 03:12 AM

Yep, that's the way nearly all of the best deals transpire. As you put it --- Woosh! I've bought and sold a lot here and (mostly) on the other site. If I truly want something rare and coveted that only occasionally comes up... I pre-decide my happily-willing highest price and then lurk incognito for days, months or even years. And then BLAM when it comes up offer (5-10%) more than the seller is asking, immediate cash, no conditionals, knowing that others could be offering less or equal, typically with questions and additional buyer-conditionals. That almost always clinches the deal for me. Note: It's perfectly acceptable for a buyer to generously offer more than the asking price. The seller certainly can't raise his asking price after the fact; but a buyer is perfectly free to do so. So, if great deals seem to habitually evaporate before your hungry eyes --- that's a strategy to keep in mind. In e.g. gambling, it's called "leaving (some token) cash on the table". You then become a participant who others are glad to engage with. It also makes for consistently great reviews!    Tom


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#3 leviathan

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 03:21 AM

Nice catch for someone who could not get into the magik waiting list.



#4 peleuba

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 08:31 AM

Yep, that's the way nearly all of the best deals transpire. As you put it --- Woosh! I've bought and sold a lot here and (mostly) on the other site. If I truly want something rare and coveted that only occasionally comes up... I pre-decide my happily-willing highest price and then lurk incognito for days, months or even years. And then BLAM when it comes up offer (5-10%) more than the seller is asking, immediate cash, no conditionals, knowing that others could be offering less or equal, typically with questions and additional buyer-conditionals. 

 

 

Yes.  I do this somewhat regularly - pay a little more then asking price for something I covet - ESPECIALLY if I think the seller priced it lower then what the equipment is worth.

 

As you say, you soon achieve Favorite Buyer status.


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#5 Paul G

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 08:50 AM

That was an awesome deal.


Edited by Paul G, 07 April 2021 - 08:51 AM.


#6 weis14

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 08:59 AM

That was a great price!  Someone will be very happy.

 

It was such a good deal that I briefly considered the idea of a Stowaway binocular scope. smirk.gif   However, I decided that would be too greedy.


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#7 blakestree

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 09:12 AM

Yep, that's the way nearly all of the best deals transpire. As you put it --- Woosh! I've bought and sold a lot here and (mostly) on the other site. If I truly want something rare and coveted that only occasionally comes up... I pre-decide my happily-willing highest price and then lurk incognito for days, months or even years. And then BLAM when it comes up offer (5-10%) more than the seller is asking, immediate cash, no conditionals, knowing that others could be offering less or equal, typically with questions and additional buyer-conditionals. That almost always clinches the deal for me. Note: It's perfectly acceptable for a buyer to generously offer more than the asking price. The seller certainly can't raise his asking price after the fact; but a buyer is perfectly free to do so. So, if great deals seem to habitually evaporate before your hungry eyes --- that's a strategy to keep in mind. In e.g. gambling, it's called "leaving (some token) cash on the table". You then become a participant who others are glad to engage with. It also makes for consistently great reviews!    Tom

I consider this an unethical practice. If OBO is not expressed, the item should go to the first "I'll take it", for the asking price. I, also, feel a good seller will allow a prospective buyer due diligence. A queue is then created.

 

But, hey, if trying to snake others out of a deal is within your moral bounds, so be it.


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#8 TOMDEY

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 09:50 AM

I consider this an unethical practice. If OBO is not expressed, the item should go to the first "I'll take it", for the asking price. I, also, feel a good seller will allow a prospective buyer due diligence. A queue is then created.

 

But, hey, if trying to snake others out of a deal is within your moral bounds, so be it.

You're reading nefarious motives into simple innocent free-market transactions. Preemptively offering a seller more than he is asking is the most moral thing one can possibly do; it's called "giving back, sharing the wealth, even magnanimous! Very few buyers attain this level of actualization! Happy buyer; happy seller. Even cars and houses sell this way. Until the deal is sealed, it's a free-for-all!   Tom


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#9 blakestree

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 10:01 AM

You're reading nefarious motives into simple innocent free-market transactions. Preemptively offering a seller more than he is asking is the most moral thing one can possibly do; it's called "giving back, sharing the wealth, even magnanimous! Very few buyers attain this level of actualization! Happy buyer; happy seller. Even cars and houses sell this way. Until the deal is sealed, it's a free-for-all!   Tom

Try and justify it however you like. Really, it's my fault for coming in here. I woulda preferred to carry on with my idyllic notion that my fellow Cloudy Nighters wouldn't be so greedy.


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#10 TOMDEY

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 10:40 AM

Similarity: My wife sent me to Dollar General last Sunday to buy a few cans of dog food for our three pets that we rescued from abusive owners. The two masked girls frenetically tending store were rather harried and working hard to keep up with antsy customers. I paid and commented, "Working hard on Easter, I see." They chuckled and wished me a happy Easter too. I plopped down a twenty and said, "Here's a tip for you young ladies to share; Happy Easter!" I returned home feeling good for them, our pets, my wife, and me. That's my idyllic notion regarding greediness. Next time you buy something --- seriously consider paying more, rather than trying to negotiate less, then accusing other buyers of greed. It's a fulfilling feeling making startled sellers any yourself a bit happier. To quote a wise man, "Give, and it shall be given unto you."    Tom 


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#11 blakestree

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 10:43 AM

If OBO is not expressed, the item should go to the first "I'll take it", for the asking price.

Actually, OBO doesn't even fly, here, according to this Classifieds Rule. 

 

7. Items for sale must be posted with a set or negotiable price. We do not allow auctions, charitable raffles, "make me an offer" posts, or any other sales transaction types other than those with a set or negotiable price for a specified item.

 

The wording, to me, also suggests that TOMDEY's practice of "offering up" is prohibited.



#12 blakestree

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 10:48 AM

Similarity: My wife sent me to Dollar General last Sunday to buy a few cans of dog food for our three pets that we rescued from abusive owners. The two masked girls frenetically tending store were rather harried and working hard to keep up with antsy customers. I paid and commented, "Working hard on Easter, I see." They chuckled and wished me a happy Easter too. I plopped down a twenty and said, "Here's a tip for you young ladies to share; Happy Easter!" I returned home feeling good for them, our pets, my wife, and me. That's my idyllic notion regarding greediness. Next time you buy something --- seriously consider paying more, rather than trying to negotiate less, then accusing other buyers of greed. It's a fulfilling feeling making startled sellers any yourself a bit happier. To quote a wise man, "Give, and it shall be given unto you."    Tom 

There is no similarity between giving a tip to a hard working soul, on a Holiday, and using finances to beat someone else out of a deal.

 

It would be different if you paid more for something, out of the kindness of your heart, after the deal was struck. I will, for example, often add a little extra to cover PayPal fees, if the seller doesn't ask for it.


Edited by blakestree, 07 April 2021 - 10:59 AM.

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#13 TOMDEY

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 11:17 AM

Actually, OBO doesn't even fly, here, according to this Classifieds Rule. 

 

7. Items for sale must be posted with a set or negotiable price. We do not allow auctions, charitable raffles, "make me an offer" posts, or any other sales transaction types other than those with a set or negotiable price for a specified item.

 

The wording, to me, also suggests that TOMDEY's practice of "offering up" is prohibited.

Hi, blake!

 

You're wrong; reading too much into it. The seller may not post asking for offers, but the buyer is certainly not precluded from gratuitously offering more than asked. Show me a rule stating that "the buyer may not offer more than the set price." That would be comically ridiculous. A house is on the market, asking a modest $600K. A motivated buyer offers $630K and he instantly closes on the house from the happily-grateful seller. It happens all the time!    Tom, happy buyer Tom


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#14 sw196060

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 11:27 AM

I don't see anything unethical about Tom’s idea. 
You can always offer more. It is up to the seller to decide

to stick with asking price or not. 
I would say that if the seller got his asking price on an offer,

and later got another offer for more, he should honor the first

offer. Again, that is on the seller.  
The buyer with the up-offer has no idea if he is the first in line

or if there are any other offers.  


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#15 blakestree

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 11:31 AM

Hi, blake!

 

You're wrong; reading too much into it. The seller may not post asking for offers, but the buyer is certainly not precluded from gratuitously offering more than asked. Show me a rule stating that "the buyer may not offer more than the set price." That would be comically ridiculous. A house is on the market, asking a modest $600K. A motivated buyer offers $630K and he instantly closes on the house from the happily-grateful seller. It happens all the time!    Tom, happy buyer Tom

This is the part that I feel your practice falls under, "...any other sales transaction types other than those with a set or negotiable price for a specified item." Now, I think if a price is negotiable, it should be so stated. However, I don't find that in the rules. But, by my understanding, "negotiable" occurs when a seller isn't quite sure if their price might be too high and is willing to reasonably discuss it. Not an OBO situation.

 

Further, I feel your home buying example is a bad one, because it is an understood OBO market.


Edited by blakestree, 07 April 2021 - 12:06 PM.

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#16 hyia

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 11:32 AM

Similarity: My wife sent me to Dollar General last Sunday to buy a few cans of dog food for our three pets that we rescued from abusive owners. The two masked girls frenetically tending store were rather harried and working hard to keep up with antsy customers. I paid and commented, "Working hard on Easter, I see." They chuckled and wished me a happy Easter too. I plopped down a twenty and said, "Here's a tip for you young ladies to share; Happy Easter!" I returned home feeling good for them, our pets, my wife, and me. That's my idyllic notion regarding greediness. Next time you buy something --- seriously consider paying more, rather than trying to negotiate less, then accusing other buyers of greed. It's a fulfilling feeling making startled sellers any yourself a bit happier. To quote a wise man, "Give, and it shall be given unto you."    Tom 

This topic came up a few months ago.  I think the difference depends on how you view the transaction.  You seem to indicate the above to be similar.  Others would view it as being more similar if, when you were in line at the checkout with the last few cans of dog food, somebody else who is standing in line behind you says to the clerk, "Hey, I'll give pay you $1.10 for each of those cans.  I'd call that unethical.

 

You, obviously, view the transaction as being more akin to real estate transactions which, I think all agree are of a different nature.  Unless CN makes a statement on this, I think the debate will continue.

 

Back to the topic.  I thought the price on the AP was so low that either 1.  The seller is a fair and generous person or 2.  Some scammer hacked an account.


Edited by hyia, 07 April 2021 - 11:36 AM.

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#17 blakestree

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 11:39 AM

I don't see anything unethical about Tom’s idea. 
You can always offer more. It is up to the seller to decide

to stick with asking price or not. 
I would say that if the seller got his asking price on an offer,

and later got another offer for more, he should honor the first

offer. Again, that is on the seller.  
The buyer with the up-offer has no idea if he is the first in line

or if there are any other offers.  

Please read carefully. "...knowing that others could be offering less or equal, typically with questions and additional buyer-conditionals."

 

To me, this is concerted effort to circumvent other Cloudy Nights member's financial means and/or deny them due diligence. If he had said, "Yeah, first I'll take it gets it. I just like to pay more, when I'm first." it would be a different story. I don't know Tom. Maybe he's an awesome guy and doesn't realize this is what he's doing, although it rather sounds like he does. I'll leave it up to him and Cloudy Nights to decide if he is in the wrong.


Edited by blakestree, 07 April 2021 - 12:13 PM.


#18 Jared

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 12:15 PM

I consider this an unethical practice. If OBO is not expressed, the item should go to the first "I'll take it", for the asking price. I, also, feel a good seller will allow a prospective buyer due diligence. A queue is then created.

 

But, hey, if trying to snake others out of a deal is within your moral bounds, so be it.

I think you may be unusual in your reading of the Cloudy Nights rules for classifieds. They allow both fixed or negotiable pricing (as you yourself mention in a later post). There is no check box, though, for the buyer to specify.  Most products are simply listed with a price. Occasionally a seller will choose to state something like, “first offer over x gets it”, but it’s usually just a buyer listing his or her desired price. I would always assume that is negotiable—in either direction—unless the buyer specifies otherwise.
 

Have you ever seen something listed, and decided to offer less than the listed price? If so, that suggests you are interpreting the pricing to be negotiable. Very few of the Cloudy Nights classifieds say whether the price is negotiable or not. I expect the vast majority are negotiable. Nowhere in the rules does it state or even imply that the seller should/must take the first offer at asking price. Certainly, it’s not an auction site, but I don’t see why a buyer can’t evaluate each offer as he or she sees them and take whichever is most attractive. That might be value, payment method, shipping distance/complexity, risk assessment, or any combination of the above. Certainly it wouldn’t be ethical to back out on an agreement just because a better offer came in, but if there has been no agreement? Why not take the best offer, whatever you consider best? Offering more than asking seems perfectly acceptable and ethical to me. Don’t think I’d ascribe either positive or negative attributes to the practice, any more than I would say it is unethical to offer less than asking. In all cases, the buyer is hoping to get the product at the price they are offering, and the seller is determining whether the offer is good enough to part with the product.


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#19 weis14

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 12:17 PM

Hi, blake!

 

You're wrong; reading too much into it. The seller may not post asking for offers, but the buyer is certainly not precluded from gratuitously offering more than asked. Show me a rule stating that "the buyer may not offer more than the set price." That would be comically ridiculous. A house is on the market, asking a modest $600K. A motivated buyer offers $630K and he instantly closes on the house from the happily-grateful seller. It happens all the time!    Tom, happy buyer Tom

I tend to agree with this.  I don't think that CN should be policing what buyers offer.  A strict adherence to first offer gets it simply turns the classifieds into a lottery for who has the fastest trigger finger (or who writes a script to ping the page periodically) instead of one governed by economics.  Sellers often guess at a reasonable price.  If they receive offers for more, it stands to reason that they underpriced the item and they should benefit from a prospective buyer that chooses to make a higher offer.

 

Similarly, what if a seller does not want to ship an item, but I am willing to offer enough to cover shipping costs, plus a bonus for the seller's hassle?  I think such an offer should be allowed.  Or what if I suggest a trade (something like $2500 plus an AT92)?  Do I have to keep the total value below the cash asking price?  

 

This topic came up a few months ago.  I think the difference depends on how you view the transaction.  You seem to indicate the above to be similar.  Others would view it as being more similar if, when you were in line at the checkout with the last few cans of dog food, somebody else who is standing in line behind you says to the clerk, "Hey, I'll give pay you $1.10 for each of those cans.  I'd call that unethical.

 

You, obviously, view the transaction as being more akin to real estate transactions which, I think all agree are of a different nature.  Unless CN makes a statement on this, I think the debate will continue.

 

Back to the topic.  I thought the price on the AP was so low that either 1.  The seller is a fair and generous person or 2.  Some scammer hacked an account.

A classified ad is much different than a vendor or store that publishes a list of prices.  In the case of a vendor, the transaction might be legally consummated at the time the buyer expresses an intent to purchase (sorry, its been a few years since I read the Uniform Commercial Code), in which case I agree with your dog food analogy.  However, my understanding of classified ads is that they are less a firm offer to sell and more of a starting place for negotiations.  This makes them much more like a real estate transaction.  

Regardless, I agree that unless CN makes a statement, this issue won't go away.  I also agree that this scope was priced far too low.  Hopefully, the seller doesn't read these threads and feel that he or she got cheated.  My guess is that if the seller would have listed it for $5,000, they would have gotten offers somewhere in the $4,000+ range in a week or so.  Hell, I didn't consider putting mine up as a potential trade for my CFF160, despite the seller asking (which I was totally fine with BTW).


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#20 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 12:28 PM

How would "first offer gets it" be policed anyway?   What if first offer is from 2k miles away, and second offer is local pick up?   I think, on a hot item, some sellers may wait for multiple offers and see which one is the easiest and safest to accept.  It is up to the seller.  Again, it cannot be policed.  Some buyers may have more credibility than others.....thats why we have a buyer/ seller rating system. 


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#21 TOMDEY

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 12:35 PM

When a buyer gratuitously adds seller-diminishing conditionals, (less than asked price, take and send pictures, take measurements, meet me somewhere, wait till I look for cash, only want part, ask my wife, etc.) --- at that point the buyer has not satisfied the seller's offer. The seller is not obliged to honor, discuss, or even respond to that buyer's tire-kicking inquiry. The item is still on the market --- to the first serious buyer offering to immediately honor all terms of the offer. Really as simple as that! All the rest is just background chatter.    Tom


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#22 blakestree

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 12:44 PM

I think you may be unusual in your reading of the Cloudy Nights rules for classifieds. They allow both fixed or negotiable pricing (as you yourself mention in a later post). There is no check box, though, for the buyer to specify.  Most products are simply listed with a price. Occasionally a seller will choose to state something like, “first offer over x gets it”, but it’s usually just a buyer listing his or her desired price. I would always assume that is negotiable—in either direction—unless the buyer specifies otherwise.
 

Have you ever seen something listed, and decided to offer less than the listed price? If so, that suggests you are interpreting the pricing to be negotiable. Very few of the Cloudy Nights classifieds say whether the price is negotiable or not. I expect the vast majority are negotiable. Nowhere in the rules does it state or even imply that the seller should/must take the first offer at asking price. Certainly, it’s not an auction site, but I don’t see why a buyer can’t evaluate each offer as he or she sees them and take whichever is most attractive. That might be value, payment method, shipping distance/complexity, risk assessment, or any combination of the above. Certainly it wouldn’t be ethical to back out on an agreement just because a better offer came in, but if there has been no agreement? Why not take the best offer, whatever you consider best? Offering more than asking seems perfectly acceptable and ethical to me. Don’t think I’d ascribe either positive or negative attributes to the practice, any more than I would say it is unethical to offer less than asking. In all cases, the buyer is hoping to get the product at the price they are offering, and the seller is determining whether the offer is good enough to part with the product.

Admittedly, the Rules are vague about what "negotiable" means. That's why I pointed out how I, personally, interpret it. However, they seem explicit about "offers". Accepting offers, for all intents and purposes, creates an auction.

 

Yes, I will offer less, if I feel the price is more than I'm willing to pay. And, I accept it if that is not enough for the seller. I see Tom's methodical offering up as unethical, though, because it is at the detriment of other members, or "the innocents" if you will.


Edited by blakestree, 07 April 2021 - 01:03 PM.


#23 weis14

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 12:49 PM

How would "first offer gets it" be policed anyway?   What if first offer is from 2k miles away, and second offer is local pick up?   I think, on a hot item, some sellers may wait for multiple offers and see which one is the easiest and safest to accept.  It is up to the seller.  Again, it cannot be policed.  Some buyers may have more credibility than others.....thats why we have a buyer/ seller rating system. 

This is a great point.  If the first offer has 1 star and a history of bad ratings in other transactions, but says I can pay in PayPal immediately and the second offer is 5 stars and says I can pay via PayPal immediately, I will always take the second offer.  Plain and simple.  

 

When a buyer gratuitously adds seller-diminishing conditionals, (less than asked price, take and send pictures, take measurements, meet me somewhere, wait till I look for cash, only want part, ask my wife, etc.) --- at that point the buyer has not satisfied the seller's offer. The seller is not obliged to honor, discuss, or even respond to that buyer's tire-kicking inquiry. The item is still on the market --- to the first serious buyer offering to immediately honor all terms of the offer. Really as simple as that! All the rest is just background chatter.    Tom

I strongly disagree with this statement, regardless of whether someone offers a premium or not.  I've sold $25k+ of stuff here and the items are still on the market until decide who to sell them to.  Period.  That is often the first offer, but not always.  Rating, payment method, location, etc. all have a very important role to play.

You seem to be confused about classifieds being like a vendor.  I agree that Astronomics (or any other vendor) has an obligation to sell at their price when offered.  Classifieds are private transactions and do not, and should not, work that way.  As the seller, I retain my absolute right to pick who gets the item.  Usually based on priority, but sometimes based on other factors that might not have been thought about when I placed the ad.  

 

Edit:  I will add that one time I had a vendor (not going to say who) tell me that they would not put me on their wait list for a rare item because I did not have a history of buying from them.  I thought that this was poor behavior from a vendor and have never set foot in their store since.  Thus, I get where you are coming from, but I just don't agree that it applies to non-vendors.


Edited by weis14, 07 April 2021 - 12:54 PM.

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#24 blakestree

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 12:50 PM

How would "first offer gets it" be policed anyway?   What if first offer is from 2k miles away, and second offer is local pick up?   I think, on a hot item, some sellers may wait for multiple offers and see which one is the easiest and safest to accept.  It is up to the seller.  Again, it cannot be policed.  Some buyers may have more credibility than others.....thats why we have a buyer/ seller rating system. 

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting it should be policed. One should consider it a moral obligation, imo.


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#25 peleuba

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 12:52 PM

Try and justify it however you like. Really, it's my fault for coming in here. 

 

 

So you're saying you came here to troll?

 

Your interpretation of the market place is odd.  No matter what "rules" exist - whether written in a TOS document or in some other format, When you have a buyer and seller ie. a "market", anything that is worked out between these parties as it pertains to terms/conditions of the sale is between them and perfectly fine.  So long as no laws were tangentially broken as part of the deal.


Edited by peleuba, 07 April 2021 - 01:00 PM.

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