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No color ASI294 MC Pro

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#1 hamel

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 05:50 AM

I'm a total newb-obviously-from the question I have.

 

I have an ASI 294MC Pro and am beginning to get fairly good shots of different galaxies but before and after stacking they all are in black and white. I've read that they need to debayered to show color but I still get black and white images after doing that. I've played around with histograms and stretching with no luck. What do I need to do to bring out the color? Again sorry for such an idiot question.



#2 EdDixon

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 06:39 AM

What capture software are you using?  ZWO software has a B/W option that reverts all to non color.  If you use the scope during the day and use live view, do you see color?



#3 GaryShaw

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 07:42 AM

As Ed says, we need more information to help with this. Sharpcap takes care of debayering as well as color adjustments when you auto-stretch. It also provides several modes of color adjustment. Are you understanding and using these features?

 

Remember too that galaxies do not offer much color and often what you see in peoples images is false color. To really see the blueish star-forming areas or reddish Ha regions accurately, you need the right FOV and image scale to bring it out. Many AP folks who achieve colorful galaxy images are imaging with mono cameras, which can be more sensitive and have smaller image scales, and they are using a variety of broadband and narrowband filters for the subs which are processed after the fact to bring out the galactic structure and color.

Gary


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#4 hamel

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 07:44 AM

What capture software are you using? ZWO software has a B/W option that reverts all to non color. If you use the scope during the day and use live view, do you see color?



#5 hamel

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 07:48 AM

I'm using asiair pro. Preprocessing with DSS or AstroPixelProcessor. Haven't used the scope in daytime but the Orion nebula does show some color before preprocessing so I don't think it's the camera.

#6 hamel

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 07:49 AM

As Ed says, we need more information to help with this. Sharpcap takes care of debayering as well as color adjustments when you auto-stretch. It also provides several modes of color adjustment. Are you understanding and using these features?

Remember too that galaxies do not offer much color and often what you see in peoples images is false color. To really see the blueish star-forming areas or reddish Ha regions accurately, you need the right FOV and image scale to bring it out. Many AP folks who achieve colorful galaxy images are imaging with mono cameras, which can be more sensitive and have smaller image scales, and they are using a variety of broadband and narrowband filters for the subs which are processed after the fact to bring out the galactic structure and color.
Gary



#7 hamel

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 07:50 AM

As Ed says, we need more information to help with this. Sharpcap takes care of debayering as well as color adjustments when you auto-stretch. It also provides several modes of color adjustment. Are you understanding and using these features?

Remember too that galaxies do not offer much color and often what you see in peoples images is false color. To really see the blueish star-forming areas or reddish Ha regions accurately, you need the right FOV and image scale to bring it out. Many AP folks who achieve colorful galaxy images are imaging with mono cameras, which can be more sensitive and have smaller image scales, and they are using a variety of broadband and narrowband filters for the subs which are processed after the fact to bring out the galactic structure and color.
Gary



#8 hamel

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 07:59 AM

I'm using asiair pro to capture the images. I'm also using App to stack the image which is then auto stretched and debayered automatically but again produces a B&W image. Haven't learned to use the color manipulation yet. In the process of learning to use AstroPixelProcessor which is slow going but I only want to have to learn one program and learn it well rather than learn one or two then learn APP which I understand is quite different from the others. I've gotten comfortable with the preprocessing part of it. I've also debayered and tried some different settings but all I get then is a green image.

#9 hamel

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 08:02 AM

My apologies. I meant to say I used APP to stack and debayer. The program I'm learning to use is PixInSight.

#10 astrohamp

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 09:10 AM

You need a lot of integration time on the object, from what I have discovered.  Tens of minutes just gets things started.  A good set of post processing skills seem to be in order as well.   Small steps and all in good time.


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#11 David Boulanger

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 11:40 AM

Are you using DSS or APP to stack.  And, are the files FITS or TIFF's.  DSS does not seem to like raw tiff's and if you stack them in APP you need to check a box the forces debayering.  Fits seem to be easier.



#12 hamel

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 01:42 PM

Are you using DSS or APP to stack.  And, are the files FITS or TIFF's.  DSS does not seem to like raw tiff's and if you stack them in APP you need to check a box the forces debayering.  Fits seem to be easier.

Using APP. Files are  FITS.



#13 wesastro

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 07:11 PM

I have that same combination of AAP with ASI294MC and if I properly debayer with the correct debayer pattern, the stacked image starts out as green, but after color calibration in PI, the image appears to be bw, after histogram adjustment and increased color saturation, the color becomes more visible. If I’m imaging ha nebula, the red color will be apparent even if live stacking with the AAP.


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#14 LittleEd

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 08:19 PM

In APP, when you're going to load in your light subs, you need to go to tab "0)  RAW/FITS", select the correct Bayer pattern from the "pattern" drop down list, and check the "force Bayer/X-Trans CFA" check box. If you forget, you'll end up with monochrome images at the end.


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#15 hamel

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Posted 18 April 2021 - 11:08 AM

I have that same combination of AAP with ASI294MC and if I properly debayer with the correct debayer pattern, the stacked image starts out as green, but after color calibration in PI, the image appears to be bw, after histogram adjustment and increased color saturation, the color becomes more visible. If I’m imaging ha nebula, the red color will be apparent even if live stacking with the AAP.

What debayer pattern does the ASI 294MC use? I've been using RGGB.



#16 hamel

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Posted 18 April 2021 - 11:23 AM

In APP, when you're going to load in your light subs, you need to go to tab "0)  RAW/FITS", select the correct Bayer pattern from the "pattern" drop down list, and check the "force Bayer/X-Trans CFA" check box. If you forget, you'll end up with monochrome images at the end.

I did that after reading your post but the only difference is I get a red tinged final image. I've been using RGGB as I was told that's what to use with the 294MC.



#17 LittleEd

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Posted 18 April 2021 - 11:49 AM

RGGB is what I use with my 071MC, and it's probably right for your camera.

 

Is there absolutely not color when the image comes out of APP? If so, then the image going in has to be missing the correct color info. The fact that there is now a reddish tinge seems to say that there is more going on.

 

If you're still having problems with getting this to work, you should probably make some posts over at the APP forums. Those folks *really* know the ins and outs of it and if they can't help you then nobody can.



#18 hamel

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Posted 18 April 2021 - 12:16 PM

If I check color saturation there is color but I don't think it's the "correct" color. I say "correct" because I've noticed that if you look at several different images posted by folks online, say of M81, you'll see different colors in most of them so I'm not sure what correct is. Another thing I should mention is that the Orion nebula does show color on my tablet within the AAP program. Unfortunately I didn't image it until it was too late-its almost below the horizon at dark now.

#19 dswtan

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Posted 18 April 2021 - 01:43 PM

It's still not really clear what you are seeing. It would help if you could post an example of your shot, and what you would like to get it to look like. As you have already noticed, color can be very subjective (certainly in perception), but even that statement can cause arguments here since there is a case to be made for a "scientifically correct" color. Most of us are just tying to make things that look aesthetically pleasing (IMO), and that gets personal. Some here are more science-oriented. It can get contentious.

 

If you are seeing a color "cast" (e.g. it all looks red or green or something), then that may be a processing error. Please post an example.

 

Meanwhile, maybe I can illustrate what posters like #3 and #10 have already shared. Galaxies are not generally colorful! You need long integration times to capture their colors -- and practice. Personally, my early steps with DSLRs (regular cameras) did not show any color in galaxies at all. Later, with a dedicated astro color camera (OSC), I started to see some colors, with more practiced processing. Only when I then moved to a mono astro camera with filters, and even more practice at processing, did I start to get the colors I really wanted.

Here is my progression for M33 -- top to bottom:

- 2014 - DSLR (astro-modified, even) -- no color
- 2019 - OSC astro camera -- some color, better but still early processing skills

- 2020 - Mono astro camera -- much better, though still room for improvement in 2021 and maybe add some Ha filter to experiment!

 

M33

 


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#20 hamel

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 10:04 AM

It's still not really clear what you are seeing. It would help if you could post an example of your shot, and what you would like to get it to look like. As you have already noticed, color can be very subjective (certainly in perception), but even that statement can cause arguments here since there is a case to be made for a "scientifically correct" color. Most of us are just tying to make things that look aesthetically pleasing (IMO), and that gets personal. Some here are more science-oriented. It can get contentious.

 

If you are seeing a color "cast" (e.g. it all looks red or green or something), then that may be a processing error. Please post an example.

 

Meanwhile, maybe I can illustrate what posters like #3 and #10 have already shared. Galaxies are not generally colorful! You need long integration times to capture their colors -- and practice. Personally, my early steps with DSLRs (regular cameras) did not show any color in galaxies at all. Later, with a dedicated astro color camera (OSC), I started to see some colors, with more practiced processing. Only when I then moved to a mono astro camera with filters, and even more practice at processing, did I start to get the colors I really wanted.

Here is my progression for M33 -- top to bottom:

- 2014 - DSLR (astro-modified, even) -- no color
- 2019 - OSC astro camera -- some color, better but still early processing skills

- 2020 - Mono astro camera -- much better, though still room for improvement in 2021 and maybe add some Ha filter to experiment!

 

Your help is really appreciated!! Hate to sound so stupid but I'm having trouble uploading files here. Way too big and don't know anything about those upload sites like Astrobin. I can say that when I click the saturation box in APP the files show color but are mainly red. I cant appreciate any red or green in the pic. If that helps at all. Ill google how to upload files to Astrobin.



#21 EdDixon

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 10:41 AM

Your help is really appreciated!! Hate to sound so stupid but I'm having trouble uploading files here. Way too big and don't know anything about those upload sites like Astrobin. I can say that when I click the saturation box in APP the files show color but are mainly red. I cant appreciate any red or green in the pic. If that helps at all. Ill google how to upload files to Astrobin.

Uploads here are more limited.  For a quick case, load the image into Windows Paint.  Then do a resize to 10-25% range and save as a smaller file.  That will usually work for a quick image once you get it below .500K in size.



#22 dswtan

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 10:59 AM

Your help is really appreciated!! Hate to sound so stupid but I'm having trouble uploading files here. Way too big and don't know anything about those upload sites like Astrobin. I can say that when I click the saturation box in APP the files show color but are mainly red. I cant appreciate any red or green in the pic. If that helps at all. Ill google how to upload files to Astrobin.

Uploads here are more limited.  For a quick case, load the image into Windows Paint.  Then do a resize to 10-25% range and save as a smaller file.  That will usually work for a quick image once you get it below .500K in size.

Posters can use their Gallery here on CN where the max size per file is 50MB. No need for anything more than that. That is how I posted my M33 example above. I created myself an album there especially for post attachments, for convenient organization. 

 

Folks only need to use Dropbox/Gdrive/Onedrive for sharing large batches of files (and these are recommended for general filesharing, not Astrobin). When posters shrink their images down to <500k per the post attachment limit, often it's too hard to see what's going on in the image. And Astrobin (or Telescopius, Flickr, etc.) is better for finished images IMO. 



#23 hamel

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Posted 20 April 2021 - 06:28 AM

Thanks again! Here is one of my images

 

M101Sat-30.jpg

 

This is without any real processing. Seems to red to me and no other colors. Does this just need processing to bring them out? I think all I did with this one is check the saturation box in APP.

 

Again thanks!

 

 

 

Posters can use their Gallery here on CN where the max size per file is 50MB. No need for anything more than that. That is how I posted my M33 example above. I created myself an album there especially for post attachments, for convenient organization. 

 

Folks only need to use Dropbox/Gdrive/Onedrive for sharing large batches of files (and these are recommended for general filesharing, not Astrobin). When posters shrink their images down to <500k per the post attachment limit, often it's too hard to see what's going on in the image. And Astrobin (or Telescopius, Flickr, etc.) is better for finished images IMO. 


Edited by hamel, 20 April 2021 - 06:29 AM.

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#24 AhBok

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Posted 20 April 2021 - 02:51 PM

There is plenty of color in this image. You just need to learn how to post process your image to bring out the color. You can use APP for decent results. When using APP, I run the saturation up to about 30 and then use tab 9 in APP to deal with light pollution, star color and HSL color. After that, adjust the black point if needed and do a final stretch, contrast adjustment, and sharpening.

For even better results, especially for galaxies, I take the stacked FITS from APP directly to StarTools which has a more complete toolset for post processing.

Bottom line: at least half of AP is post processing. A stacked FITs is just the beginning of post processing. This is where you will spend years learning all the refinements. You are doing well so far.
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