Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

My IMX571 color camera is here

  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

#1 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 04 May 2021 - 10:50 PM

Hi all,

 

I contacted with one seller over aliexpress site and after confirming few things i did order the camera and waited until it arrived me few days ago safely, i love it.

 

Now i have to play with it for a while and see what else i can do with this camera, but more important is which filter i should use with it if i want to do broadbanding targets from my LP sky, many voted for L-Pro, i have D2 so i can test this first, i want good filter for colors, not concern about quality because all of them are nice quality filters anyway.

 

Now i want to know where i can find about the sensor distance so i can calculate the back focus, nothing wasting time than spending nights and night only to find the back focus for different scopes, so the first thing is at least to find the sensor depth inside the camera which can help for calculation, i didn't find it anywhere.

 

https://drive.google...Bue?usp=sharing

 

I am sure that this camera is just a ToupTek copy, i used their software and driver and the camera worked fine with Sharpcap, SGPro, new veriosn of NINA and their native software called "ToupLite", but it didn't work on FireCapture, not sure if the version difference can be the problem.


  • edif300 likes this

#2 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 04 May 2021 - 10:55 PM

I made a test indoor for checking out the color, but i forgot to use any filter, not sure if that is causing to have bad colors or difficult to correct colors or it doesn't matter.

 

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

 

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing



#3 bobzeq25

bobzeq25

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 24,623
  • Joined: 27 Oct 2014

Posted 04 May 2021 - 11:25 PM

I made a test indoor for checking out the color, but i forgot to use any filter, not sure if that is causing to have bad colors or difficult to correct colors or it doesn't matter.

 

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

 

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

Unprocessed color is not likely to be very good.  This chart of what a Bayer matrix does shows you why.

 

https://astronomy-im...s/QE-ASI224.jpg

 

Pretty much a mess, with way too much green for astro.

 

Processing adjusts things pretty well.  It's not trivial to do well.

 

I don't use any filter on broadband targets.  Reduces signal as it does noise (close call whether it improves things or makes them worse), distorts color, making color processing _more_ difficult.

 

Use a duoband on emission nebulae.

 

I have an ASI2600MC.


Edited by bobzeq25, 04 May 2021 - 11:28 PM.


#4 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 04 May 2021 - 11:30 PM

Unprocessed color is not likely to be very good.  This chart of what a Bayer matrix does shows you why.

 

https://astronomy-im...s/QE-ASI224.jpg

 

Pretty much a mess, with way too much green for astro.

 

Processing adjusts things pretty well.  It's not trivial to do well.

 

I don't use any filter on broadband targets.  Reduces signal as it does noise (close call whether it improves things or makes them worse), distorts color, making color processing _more_ difficult.

 

Use a duoband on emission nebulae.

In all cases almost all color cameras will behave similar, with green more pixels, half of it, so what to expect any different than this anyway?!!!

 

I will try binning, i don't know if i shoot with red filter and then with blue filter and no green and trying that, will i get like balanced channels of RGB? or if i shoot like three times, so i can get like 2 Red, 2 Blue, and 6 Green, then i try to subtract 4 green pixels somehow to keep them all balanced?



#5 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 04 May 2021 - 11:35 PM

ASI2600MC is same of this camera after all, sharing same sensor i believe.

 

Saying to use Duoband filter on emission nebulae is like saying to use a narrowbnding filter with this camera, i want to keep narrowbanding for mono cameras, maybe Orion and Horsehead are emission nebulae, they are nice with a color camera for RGB.



#6 bobzeq25

bobzeq25

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 24,623
  • Joined: 27 Oct 2014

Posted 05 May 2021 - 01:24 AM

ASI2600MC is same of this camera after all, sharing same sensor i believe.

 

Saying to use Duoband filter on emission nebulae is like saying to use a narrowbnding filter with this camera, i want to keep narrowbanding for mono cameras, maybe Orion and Horsehead are emission nebulae, they are nice with a color camera for RGB.

Same sensor, very similar camera.

 

The duoband filters were specifically designed for one shot color cameras with the Bayer matrix filter.  They're justifiably popular.  Here's a sample.  Bortle 7, dim target.

 

https://www.astrobin.com/kis712

 

Basically, they're narrowband for color cameras.

 

What I can't see is why you would stick a red or blue broadband filter on top of the Bayer matrix.  That makes no sense at all.

 

You balance the color with the computer, not filters.  This is far from perfect (just got the camera), but I think the color is pretty good.

 

https://www.astrobin.../full/c91r0y/0/


Edited by bobzeq25, 05 May 2021 - 01:30 AM.


#7 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 05 May 2021 - 01:36 AM

Same sensor, very similar camera.

 

The duoband filters were specifically designed for one shot color cameras with the Bayer matrix filter.  They're justifiably popular.  Here's a sample.  Bortle 7, dim target.

 

https://www.astrobin.com/kis712

 

Basically, they're narrowband for color cameras.

 

What I can't see is why you would stick a red or blue broadband filter on top of the Bayer matrix.  That makes no sense at all.

 

You balance the color with the computer, not filters.  This is far from perfect (just got the camera), but I think the color is pretty good.

 

https://www.astrobin.../full/c91r0y/0/

I really don't like most of those RED-ish duo/trio band filters used with color cameras, there is no comparison to mono with narrowbanding, many could accept it and be happy with it, but me using a mono and lost almost 3 years without guiding i can't go to color and using those filters, in fact Ha alone with mono is much more appealing to me than those.

 

I am not planning to use Red/Blue filters with color cameras at all, i was just asking, if the color sensors having green more, so isn't using red or blue filter for an exposure to get enough red or blue next to green, but it was a bad idea.

 

The image is nice, i saw so many images with color cameras for those kind of targets, in fact i bought this color camera only for three targets:

 

1. Galaxies

2. Clusters

3. Stars in all targets including nebulae, or just RGB data for nebulae



#8 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 05 May 2021 - 01:43 AM

A well respected member here, and a talented skilled imager, he is doing great with a color camera regardless which Bortle sky, sure it helps under darker skies, but why not, and what is better than an image of the day to show as an example regardless how old it was.

 

https://www.astrobin...jp10/D/?nc=user


  • elmiko likes this

#9 sharkmelley

sharkmelley

    Aurora

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,669
  • Joined: 19 Feb 2013
  • Loc: UK

Posted 05 May 2021 - 01:44 AM

I made a test indoor for checking out the color, but i forgot to use any filter, not sure if that is causing to have bad colors or difficult to correct colors or it doesn't matter.

 

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

 

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

You are taking a picture of a ColorChecker.  You really need to use an IR/UV filter to cut out any IR light.   Also, to make the colours look correct, then after white balancing you need to apply the relevant CCM (colour correction matrix) for the sensor and then the appropriate gamma for the colour space (e.g. sRGB, AdobeRGB etc.) you using for displaying the image.

 

The problem is that (unlike consumer DSLR/Mirrorless cameras) you will not find the CCM and you would need to calibrate one yourself.

 

Most people don't bother since you can get reasonable results simply by white balancing and then increasing colour saturation.  Generally speaking this is good enough for astrophotography but not if want accurate colour reproduction of a ColorChecker.

 

Mark


Edited by sharkmelley, 05 May 2021 - 01:48 AM.

  • elmiko likes this

#10 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 05 May 2021 - 01:50 AM

You are taking a picture of a ColorChecker.  You really need to use an IR/UV filter to cut out any IR light.   Also, to make the colours look correct, then after white balancing you need to apply the relevant CCM (colour correction matrix) for the sensor and then the appropriate gamma for the colour space you using for displaying the image.

 

The problem is that (unlike consumer DSLR/Mirrorless cameras) you will not find the CCM and you would need to calibrate one yourself.

 

Most people don't bother since you can get reasonable results simply by white balancing and then increasing colour saturation.  Generally speaking this is good enough for astrophotography but not if want accurate colour reproduction of a ColorChecker.

 

Mark

That is true, i was in hurry, and i wasn't sure which filter to use, IR/UV cut as in Lu,, or D2, or Moon&Skyglow filter, few choices can be used, not sure if that is really have any impact as i am imaging in the room under the LED light, not sure if that has lots of UV and IR anyway, but who knows.

 

I agree about astrophotography, most likely i will just use any UV/IR cut filter or alike and process it and saturate a bit, not really interested in color profiling as they do in photography, my monitors are calibrated except my 65" 4K TV, so i wouldn't give it much attention **** long it is for astro, i can add RGB data from filters a well for better colors and more accurate, it was a quick test, the camera is operating fine.



#11 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 05 May 2021 - 01:56 AM

I was testing dark and bias frames as well, but i don't know how to stack them separately, very nice dark, it was like impossible for me to see amp glow or banding at any cost, which is nice, i was worried about how to make it work if drivers or software would be a nightmare with it.

 

  • Here are few things i found about this camera:
  1. The camera must be connected to power, without that it can't be recognized by computer, USB cable alone didn't work.
  2. The color of the camera is fine, i was hoping for something like darker blue not much anodized metal look one, but this will do the job, it almost matched the blue touch of my 90mm triplet, good thing.
  3. From the original size of the pictures, i can see that it is slightly less pixels than QHY and ZWO, technically it makes it at about 25.9mp and not 26mp, but i won't kill myself or pay more only to get that 1-2mp more anyway, would you care about it?!!!
  4. Not sure about the back focus of this camera, it means i will waste another long time to figure it out, hopefully i can manage it sooner than later.
  5. I had a nightmare to debayer the camera for colors, but sounds i am learning about this slowly.
  6. I am not sure when i took test images from this camera if i should use a filter such as UV/IR cut, maybe i couldn't get the colors as perfect because of that, in all cases it is just a test and i am still learning it, maybe one day i can make a test with a filter, but the stars and sky is a different story.
  7. The software and drivers are working, i tested Sharpcap and SGPro and just updated NINA to something latest Beta version, and it is working on all of them, i care most about SGPro, but good to know that NINA and SC both are doing fine, i tried FireCapture and it didn't work, not a big deal and hopefully one day i can make it, there is also the native software from ToupTek called "ToupLite", it is also working for the camera, something people are always worried about.
  8. Fan noise is moderate, almost same as QHY163M camera i have, less noise than ASI1600MM, not sure if i should change the fan in future or leave it as it is.
  9. Gain and Offset is very confusing with this camera, i will take my time to learn about it and no rush, hopefully i will find that perfect or acceptable settings for this to have nice results.


#12 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 06 May 2021 - 11:55 AM

Soon i will test the camera once the sky is getting clear more and i have time for imaging, so i will keep reading more.

 

I don't want to start a new topic/thread for this very simple short question, so i will post it here.

 

For this camera i want to use a cable that is not the one included in the box with camera, it is a bit long, so what length is good enough to go with, 0.5m or 0.8m or 1meter or 1.2m ???



#13 bobzeq25

bobzeq25

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 24,623
  • Joined: 27 Oct 2014

Posted 06 May 2021 - 04:07 PM

Soon i will test the camera once the sky is getting clear more and i have time for imaging, so i will keep reading more.

 

I don't want to start a new topic/thread for this very simple short question, so i will post it here.

 

For this camera i want to use a cable that is not the one included in the box with camera, it is a bit long, so what length is good enough to go with, 0.5m or 0.8m or 1meter or 1.2m ???

The shortest that works easily.



#14 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 06 May 2021 - 04:42 PM

The shortest that works easily.

Shortest you mean 50cm?



#15 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 08 May 2021 - 12:45 AM

Here is a link to sub frames of dark and bias from this camera IMX571, if someone know how to process it to the Master file of dark and bias please do and show me here, and let me know what do you think about it or your reviews.

 

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

 

I don't want which gain, most likely it is either 100 or 150, and temp i couldn't go down to -10C, so i believe it is at -5C.



#16 PiotrM

PiotrM

    Soyuz

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,985
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2010
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 08 May 2021 - 10:02 AM

Here is a link to sub frames of dark and bias from this camera IMX571, if someone know how to process it to the Master file of dark and bias please do and show me here, and let me know what do you think about it or your reviews.

You need non-debayered raw frames, you stack them as master dark/bias /flat - what have you. Then you process that on the non-debayered light frames, then you debayer light frames and stack them. I'll look at the frames when they finish downloading... :D



#17 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 08 May 2021 - 10:59 AM



You need non-debayered raw frames, you stack them as master dark/bias /flat - what have you. Then you process that on the non-debayered light frames, then you debayer light frames and stack them. I'll look at the frames when they finish downloading... laugh.gif


I don't know how to do all of that as i am new to color camera for DSO [i have non cooled color camera for planetary only], so i uploaded the files for those who would like to give a look at it, there is a member in another topic or thread asked about those frames from same this camera model from QHY/ZWO.

 

Take your time.



#18 PiotrM

PiotrM

    Soyuz

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,985
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2010
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 08 May 2021 - 12:28 PM

The frames look fine, here is a preview of Bias/Dark stretched/binned to make it easy to view: https://imgur.com/a/Wh3ziTr

 

Bias should be done on lowest exposure possible - less than 1s if possible. The dark frame doesn't seems to have any amp glow which is nice.



#19 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 08 May 2021 - 12:44 PM

The frames look fine, here is a preview of Bias/Dark stretched/binned to make it easy to view: https://imgur.com/a/Wh3ziTr

 

Bias should be done on lowest exposure possible - less than 1s if possible. The dark frame doesn't seems to have any amp glow which is nice.

Thanks for the link.

 

About the dark frame, yes, i agree, i am happy to see that it is almost clean and no amp glow also people keep telling me it is not a big deal as it can be calibrated, i don't know how to calibrate the amp glow in dark frames if dark frames is one of the calibration files, by bias maybe? or it will calibrate the amp glow in light frames.

 

I was going to use less or faster than 1s, but some told me it is not necessary and 1s is good enough or even better than faster, i kept using 1s for bias and it is fine for me, not a big deal, i can easily use less than 1s if i need or if that is better, some told me even bias is not necessary to be taken, so everyone is smart to tell you need this you don't need that and use this or use that, this is why i don't take images because everyone has own opinions or ways to do it.

 

I will try to test this camera for flat, i didn't try flat with a color camera, but that is only when i image under the stars, flat is related to filters, but i will test it for vignetting also, to see if my flattener or reducer or corrector is up to APS-C really or not.



#20 bobzeq25

bobzeq25

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 24,623
  • Joined: 27 Oct 2014

Posted 08 May 2021 - 02:17 PM

Thanks for the link.

 

About the dark frame, yes, i agree, i am happy to see that it is almost clean and no amp glow also people keep telling me it is not a big deal as it can be calibrated, i don't know how to calibrate the amp glow in dark frames if dark frames is one of the calibration files, by bias maybe? or it will calibrate the amp glow in light frames.

 

I was going to use less or faster than 1s, but some told me it is not necessary and 1s is good enough or even better than faster, i kept using 1s for bias and it is fine for me, not a big deal, i can easily use less than 1s if i need or if that is better, some told me even bias is not necessary to be taken, so everyone is smart to tell you need this you don't need that and use this or use that, this is why i don't take images because everyone has own opinions or ways to do it.

 

I will try to test this camera for flat, i didn't try flat with a color camera, but that is only when i image under the stars, flat is related to filters, but i will test it for vignetting also, to see if my flattener or reducer or corrector is up to APS-C really or not.

On cameras with amp glow, you calibrate it out by calibrating the lights; with bias (or dark flats), flats, and darks (not "optimized").  My 2600 (IMX571) has none.  My 183 has a lot, I calibrate it out as above.  Never have had the slightest problem.

 

Less than 1s may not be necessary, but the shortest exposure the camera will accept is best.  A very few cameras like the 1600 don't like very short exposures, this has led to people inappropriately generalizing the issue, because the 1600 is (was?) so popular.  My 694 CCD, my 183, and my 2600 all do fine with very short bias exposures. 


Edited by bobzeq25, 08 May 2021 - 02:18 PM.


#21 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 08 May 2021 - 02:58 PM

On cameras with amp glow, you calibrate it out by calibrating the lights; with bias (or dark flats), flats, and darks (not "optimized").  My 2600 (IMX571) has none.  My 183 has a lot, I calibrate it out as above.  Never have had the slightest problem.

 

Less than 1s may not be necessary, but the shortest exposure the camera will accept is best.  A very few cameras like the 1600 don't like very short exposures, this has led to people inappropriately generalizing the issue, because the 1600 is (was?) so popular.  My 694 CCD, my 183, and my 2600 all do fine with very short bias exposures. 

Cool, so i will take calibration frames anyway and stack that and process further.

 

I am new to this color cooled camera, although now i have 4 cooled including one color, i still feel each camera is different, but two are the same [QHY163M and ASI1600MM], 294 mono has amp glow, and this color camera has no amp glow, someone just stated that it is because those new cameras have BSI so they have no amp glow, i don't know if we can generalize that also.

 

I will take shorter exposures bias frames also and see if that is any better, i am not worry about bias at all, i only worry about light, dark and flats, and some said just ignore bias and go to dark flat better, i don't know if the final result is the judgement here or it is kind of an equation for processing data.



#22 PiotrM

PiotrM

    Soyuz

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,985
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2010
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 08 May 2021 - 04:19 PM

Bias would be really needed if the camera would have a strong enough pattern or something. More modern CMOS sensors have very little FPN and other similar  "artifacts". Dark/Flat should be the way to start.



#23 TareqPhoto

TareqPhoto

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,062
  • Joined: 20 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Ajman - UAE

Posted 08 May 2021 - 06:26 PM

Bias would be really needed if the camera would have a strong enough pattern or something. More modern CMOS sensors have very little FPN and other similar  "artifacts". Dark/Flat should be the way to start.

Will give it a try sooner i hope




CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics