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Seriously about ready to give up trying to remote

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#1 wxcloud

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 11:07 AM

I have no idea why connecting one computer (a Linux mint 20 laptop) to another (raspberry pi 4 with astroberry) with an ethernet cable and crossover adapters is beyond my skill level.

The laptop just sits there waiting for a response from astroberry for a couple minutes and drops the connection. This is wired. I don't know if the ethernet cable is junk, the crossover adapters are junk or even the correct ones, my computer or pi is junk or the astroberry install is junk or if I'm just missing something else. Networking is just beyond my comprehension I guess.

I've been through this before here, I just can't or don't get it I'm just lost :( the idea was to set the pi next to scope outside and run long ethernet cable to it from inside.

Laptop > crossover adapter > ethernet cable > the other crossover adapter > pi

All the laptop does is wait for ethernet request from the pi. Even removed one adapter. Nothing. No idea what I'm missing. I don't even know how to edit the wired connection on the laptop.

#2 astrokeith

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 11:22 AM

You need a network router between the computer and Pi, and no crossover cables.

 

You could add them an existing network and let its router sort out the addressing traffic, or get a cheap router and make a new mini network.

 

The Astroberry will be generating a wifi hotspot, which you can connect to directly.


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#3 RSJ

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 11:22 AM

I believe only one cross-over adapter is required, as you are flipping the Tx and Rx wires (I think..?) and by having two you are re-creating a standard ethernet cable with the original wiring.

 

Edit: Also both device IPs must be configured manually to be on the same network/subnet, 192.168.1.1/255.255.255.0 and 192.168.1.2/255.255.255.0 would work


Edited by RSJ, 03 June 2021 - 11:26 AM.

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#4 gcardona

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 11:23 AM

Forget the cross-over adapters. Modern ethernet cards don't require one. You have to set the IP address on each device to match, and since you are not using a router, you will have to set this manually and set it to fixed. It's been a while since I setup two computers without a router so there may be something else that needs to be setup.


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#5 bobzeq25

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 12:10 PM

I have no idea why connecting one computer (a Linux mint 20 laptop) to another (raspberry pi 4 with astroberry) with an ethernet cable and crossover adapters is beyond my skill level.

The laptop just sits there waiting for a response from astroberry for a couple minutes and drops the connection. This is wired. I don't know if the ethernet cable is junk, the crossover adapters are junk or even the correct ones, my computer or pi is junk or the astroberry install is junk or if I'm just missing something else. Networking is just beyond my comprehension I guess.

I've been through this before here, I just can't or don't get it I'm just lost frown.gif the idea was to set the pi next to scope outside and run long ethernet cable to it from inside.

Laptop > crossover adapter > ethernet cable > the other crossover adapter > pi

All the laptop does is wait for ethernet request from the pi. Even removed one adapter. Nothing. No idea what I'm missing. I don't even know how to edit the wired connection on the laptop.

As is often the case here you're making your life difficult by using idiosyncratic hardware and software.

 

If you're actually ready to give up on remote ("seriously" is real?), you might want to consider more standard stuff.  _Really_ standard stuff.

 

Just an example.

 

I have a NUC in my observatory.  A desktop in my house.  A Wifi network.

 

I use Teamviewer to connect.  It worked instantaneously, simply.  I never had to look at any documentation, what to do was obvious.  It's been very reliable.  The biggest problem I had was kicking myself for not doing it sooner.

 

Many people love the challenges of idiosyncratic hardware and software.  If that's what's going on here, fine.   I care only about what makes my imaging easier/better.  Not about messing with computers.  I do that enough, anyway.  <smile>


Edited by bobzeq25, 03 June 2021 - 12:13 PM.

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#6 wxcloud

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 03:35 PM

Yes, I probably am in a circular argument with my self and gear. Well, computer stuff. I keep going around in circles with this and seems most stuff just goes over my head. I mean how do I change or get the ip stuff from a headless system I can't get in to? I keep trying, failing, walking away to come back later and repeat. Probably need to come up with something else :)

Anyway I agree, need something simpler, something that just gets out of the way perhaps that more people use.

My beelink u57 runs windows 10 pro. Haven't set up (mostly because the huge gaps between uses, another reason for trying Linux and raspberry pi instead, not to be bothered with potential forced updates after say a couple months sitting and collecting dust).

Wifi? Yes, would make things easier if I could rely on it. A gl inet slate router (was thinking for the asiair pro or other uses is on the wishlist. Maybe I can get a more stable WiFi set up with some patch cables and router placement.

I do have a question though, in terms of simplicity, why not just run a powered usb repeater cable to outside to the mount USB hub? Last I checked with my laptop, the Linux one, things seemed to work?

I've seen Chuck Ayoub do this? Personally I see this as a bit easier then using one computer to control another, even though this seems to be the standard practice?

I'm not trying to come off as brash or anything, just looking for clarification :)

#7 bobzeq25

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 04:20 PM

Yes, I probably am in a circular argument with my self and gear. Well, computer stuff. I keep going around in circles with this and seems most stuff just goes over my head. I mean how do I change or get the ip stuff from a headless system I can't get in to? I keep trying, failing, walking away to come back later and repeat. Probably need to come up with something else smile.gif

Anyway I agree, need something simpler, something that just gets out of the way perhaps that more people use.

My beelink u57 runs windows 10 pro. Haven't set up (mostly because the huge gaps between uses, another reason for trying Linux and raspberry pi instead, not to be bothered with potential forced updates after say a couple months sitting and collecting dust).

Wifi? Yes, would make things easier if I could rely on it. A gl inet slate router (was thinking for the asiair pro or other uses is on the wishlist. Maybe I can get a more stable WiFi set up with some patch cables and router placement.

I do have a question though, in terms of simplicity, why not just run a powered usb repeater cable to outside to the mount USB hub? Last I checked with my laptop, the Linux one, things seemed to work?

I've seen Chuck Ayoub do this? Personally I see this as a bit easier then using one computer to control another, even though this seems to be the standard practice?

I'm not trying to come off as brash or anything, just looking for clarification smile.gif

People can do anything.  Wifi is simpler, especially if you already are using it inside your house.  If you're just not quite within range, there are boosters and antennas.

 

There are generally good reasons why standard practice is standard practice.

 

Good relevant story.  A high powered research neuro psychologist did an experiment.  Dinner at a restaurant.  One group picked their own choice.  The other had to eat whatever had been voted the best dish that night.

 

Then he surveyed them.  The group that had gotten the most popular dish was significantly happier with the meal.

 

I'm not trying to be dismissive.  Just trying to suggest what I think will work best for most people.  A quote from that neuro psychologist.

 

"The thing about most people is that they are like most people.  The other thing about most people is that they think they are not."

 

<smile>


Edited by bobzeq25, 03 June 2021 - 04:24 PM.


#8 gmiller123456

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 10:11 PM

Unlike what was said above, you do not need a router between the two, that would actually complicate things.  That said, it might help to have a "switch" between the two.  Ethernet is supposedly good to 100 yards, but it's possible the laptop and/or Pi just aren't up to standards.

 

And this advice is coming a bit late for you since you already have a Pi.  But using a Pi as a general purpose computer isn't really saving that much, if anything.  I recently got a refurbished NUC for $60 (i3 1.7Ghz 8Gb RAM, no HD but an 64Gb SD was $15).  It is a bit more $$ than a Pi, especially the lower end ones, but it is so much more of a computer it's probably worth it in most cases.  These are usually corporate PCs that are being replaced, and often have some advanced features like VCore (remote control software built into the BIOS).  And "rugged" PCs made for non-office environments, like an observatory.  Just search for "Mini PC" on Ebay.  

 

The problem with running USB is the cable length limit is about 15 feet.  And cheap equipment that pushes the boundaries of the spec are pretty common, so I wouldn't rely on that.



#9 lambermo

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Posted 04 June 2021 - 03:49 PM

You mention you just have an ethernet cable between the laptop and the pi. As Gabe already mentioned that should work fine.

So what is your network interface card (NIC) config on both sides ? What is the IP address and subnet mask. Is it dynamic ? static configured ?

Does any of the two systems perhaps provide a DHCP service to the other ? (not that this is needed, we just need to know to help troubleshoot).

Are both ends set up for autonegotiation (most probably) ? What speed did they choose ?

Are both ends full-duplex (most probably) ?

Did you   tail -F /var/log/syslog   on both systems to see if some networkmanager had ideas on what that particular ethernet link should be doing ?

This should be a good start to help us diagnose your issue.

 

-- Hans



#10 wxcloud

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Posted 04 June 2021 - 04:39 PM

I have no idea what any of that stuff means :( never really got into networking when I got into computers. Ended up ordering a new WiFi router, mostly to connect the imaging stuff together since WiFi might be easier. It's a inet beryl, the idea was to make a connection point between the house and yard, maybe connect computer to router outside and WiFi connection from other computer inside.

Probably once again overcomplicating things :( if not, perhaps can control the asiair pro if nothing else with it.

#11 bobzeq25

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Posted 04 June 2021 - 06:06 PM

I have no idea what any of that stuff means frown.gif never really got into networking when I got into computers. Ended up ordering a new WiFi router, mostly to connect the imaging stuff together since WiFi might be easier. It's a inet beryl, the idea was to make a connection point between the house and yard, maybe connect computer to router outside and WiFi connection from other computer inside.

Probably once again overcomplicating things frown.gif if not, perhaps can control the asiair pro if nothing else with it.

What I did.

 

Got a NUC for the observatory, connected it via wifi, set it up with PhD2, Sharpcap, etc.  Teamviewer.  Copied the Teamviewer ID, took off the monitor, mouse, keyboard.  Put it in the observatory, hooked it up to the mount, main camera, guide camera, filter wheel, focuser.

 

Put Teamviewer on my inside desktop.

 

Turned on both computers, connected (trivial).  The desktop screen was now the NUC screen, the mouse was the NUC mouse, the keyboard was the NUC keyboard.

 

It became obvious that the connection was a bit tenuous, put a wifi booster inside the house, as close to the observatory as was convenient.


Edited by bobzeq25, 05 June 2021 - 01:45 PM.


#12 alphatripleplus

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Posted 05 June 2021 - 06:53 AM

Another remote access possibility over wifi is TightVNC - same type of set-up as for TeamViewer. I started to use this for remote access to a computer at my scope after TeamViewer decided to label my used non-personal, and have not had any problems with TightVNC. It can be installed on your Raspberry Pi and a Windows PC.


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#13 mark77

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Posted 05 June 2021 - 06:57 AM

I have a similar problem with Raspberry Pi's.  Even if you set the IP address manually, they still want to see a DHCP server to get information.  I have tried to get around this, but have not been able to make it work.

 

I just got one of these and it worked fine.

 

https://www.amazon.c...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1



#14 gregj888

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Posted 05 June 2021 - 11:03 AM

wxcloud, as others have said, you are making this hard.  If within WIFI range, getting them talking on wifi might be easiest.  If not--

 

Try-

 

Laptop  >> Ethernet cable >> Pi

 

You need to set both to the same network-  In Windows get the command prompt (google or type command in the search window)  and type in IPconfig and in Linux you want ifconfig.  You are looking for something like-

 

  IPv4 Address                      191.177.1.22  or 191.177.001.022

 

these are the same addresses... and your numbers will be different.  The first 3 sets of numbers (191.177.001)  are the network and the last set is is the device (022).  The network needs to be the same for both, the device numbers need to be different so maybe 010 and 011.  You can google how to set the Ethernet address for either system and get step by step instruction and probably a video.

 

I prefer a switch or router in the mix in most cases.  If set up correctly the switch can supply the addresses (DHCP service) but I run cameras directly into my laptop without one in the field.

 

Laptop >>cable >> switch >> cable >> Pi

 

BTW, a program called "Putty" can be helpful here to see if the systems are online.  It's free and can be a little confusing, but very useful.


Edited by gregj888, 05 June 2021 - 11:04 AM.

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#15 wxcloud

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 11:04 PM

Finally got a little time to fiddle with this stuff a little more. Building the rig back up as I once did with laptop and USB 3 hub, cable and connecting that to the laptop. Back to basics first just to get ekos and everything set up. Didn't get far. While everything connected, ekos found the mount, cameras the eaf, everything looked get, checked settings, ran a few tests, seemed to work until I pressed the button to move the eaf in or out, the eaf beeped then I got an error message. But it moved the focuser! There was an error message (getting quite used to these on this platform :() something about the focuser didn't know where it was? But it racked the focus draw tube when told to, just beeped and threw an error.

At this point I went the asiair route for now.

I have no idea why I just can't get autofocus to work with ekos. Tried with the focus cube 2 and now the zwo eaf. While the Pegasus basically broke the connection to the mount now the zwo has issues. Ekos and autofocus just don't seem to go together and if I can't do autofocus then there is no point in doing a remote setup. :(

---

A couple questions: while I am setting up a wires computer to computer network (or I suppose even wirelessly through the Beryl I got for this task -if the blasted thing actually works) should both computers / devices be hooked up to a monitor? Does the host actually need a monitor keyboard and mouse for the initial set up?

--

With all the issues I've had lately with ekos and Linux I might just breakdown and do the windows 10 route. I got a mini PC with windows 10 pro sitting in a box. I pretty much want to air gap it and keep it off the internet.

For now I hopefully have something on hand to maybe do a little imaging, the asiair pro while I try to get something a bit more substantial set up.

---

I understand wifi is easiest but getting the signal through brick, well kind of blunts it, hence another reason for the Beryl pocket router to help get signal better and maybe more where I need it. Outside things connected to wifi just drop in and out. If I can reliability WiFi a remote setup I'd ditch the cat5 but perhaps I can do a hybrid system. I don't know if I'm making sense though.

I almost want to go grab a decent windows 10 laptop with a good port selection and good screen for basically astro stuff and just run a USB repeater cable outside to the mounts USB hub. Seems that would be far simpler...

Edited by wxcloud, 12 June 2021 - 11:11 PM.


#16 alphatripleplus

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 07:26 AM


I almost want to go grab a decent windows 10 laptop with a good port selection and good screen for basically astro stuff and just run a USB repeater cable outside to the mounts USB hub. Seems that would be far simpler...

Also not that expensive if you get one used.



#17 scopewizard

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 10:54 AM

I tried the RPI4 way and soon realized the shortfalls. Wifi range is good to 20' at best, no video capture as it is too slow. ASAIR Pro is a RPI4, well designed software but locked to ZWO items except for DSLRs.

Instead I purchased a minipc, Beelink x55, 256g hdd and 8g ram, 4 x usb3. It works on 12 vdc @ 2 amps (averages < 12 watts) with Win 10 Pro.

Installed PHD2, Sharcap Pro, APT Pro, NINA, CDC,CPWI, ASCOM and other drivers as required. I use Win 10 Pro RDP.

I can remote with PC, laptop, Android tablet and even Linux box using RDP Apps.

I got a 2.4/5g router, works on 12vdc@200ma using a small powerpack (30+ hours) at a cost under $60 for both.

At home I can remote my scope outside while inside. Works great at any remote locations.

You can also share drive between minipc and remote control box. Download the images when done right into you laptop, PC and so on.

I optimized everything for max performance and stability. Works great every time.


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#18 ClownFish

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 03:48 PM

I installed INDI on a NanpPC T4 mini Linux machine, with a 500gb SSD drive on it.  I have it attached to my pier in my observatory. It uses one USB3 cable to a powered USB hub.  That hub connects my CEM120 mount, Nexdome, Cloudwatcher system.  My ASI1600MM and Lodestar cameras are attached to the CEM120 mount's USB port on the cradle.  I also have an Esatto focuser and filter wheel connected to the ASI1600 camera.

The NanoPC T4 is running an INDI web server (instead of ASCOM).
I use Ethernet connection from the NanoPC to a Mac mini in the observatory, just to give me access to the system when I am inside, plus I have a LAN line to my garage.  Inside there I use a WIFI repeater that broadcasts the Lan signal across my whole property.  In my home, I have another hi-gain receiver that picks it up and sends it to my home router.  This gives me access to the INDI server in the observatory from in my home, or anywhere on my property. It also gives my access to the Internet back out at the observatory, which makes updates to the INDI system easy as well.

To operate all my gear, I don't use VNC or any type of screen share.  I run KStars natively on my home computer and on the Mac in the observatory.  I have dual monitors so I can keep the KStars planetarium open, as well as several screens from KStars.  

The whole system is fast, and since I save images right on the NanoPC's SSD drive, that's quick too.  I have that drive shared, so I can retrieve the large image files from my home as well.  

Using INDIHub.space, I can then easily access my observatory from anywhere in the world, or allow others to use it.
 



#19 DuncanM

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 10:43 PM

Also not that expensive if you get one used.

The easiest way to run things remotely is via Chrome Remote Desktop where you control the computer at the mount remotely, A Win10 netbook is all you need at the mount.



#20 wxcloud

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Posted 14 June 2021 - 10:32 AM

A quick look at sub 500 dollar laptops give basically ultra slim netbooks running windows 10 in s mode. Which I don't know, I've seen mini pcs at 200 bucks running windows 10 pro however unsure of the legitimacy of those.

Maybe desktop (or my little netbook laptop) WiFi connection to Beryl -> Beryl router to ethernet cable -> mini pc (the u57) -> rig.

Sigh. Was hoping for a Linux solution for this but the autofocus issues basically renders this idea out the window. As soon as I introduced an auto focuser into the system I've had issues and weirdness after I've removed things.

I still don't even know if the Beryl connected via ethernet cable to rig is going to help. It's basically serving as a access point and range extender to get better WiFi signal into the house.

As far as a windows based set up, guessing it'll take the better part of a day. Need ascom drivers, nina, zwo drivers for every piece of equipment, drivers for usb hub, make sure to never swap ports by accident, I'm sure other software and drivers I can't think of right now. Guess this route is plan c as something to build to. Will also need a spot to set the box up to get it prepped.

For now I might have a halfway set up with the asiair. Needs range testing and debugging.

Chrome remote desktop might be an idea also.

#21 DuncanM

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Posted 14 June 2021 - 11:40 AM

A quick look at sub 500 dollar laptops give basically ultra slim netbooks running windows 10 in s mode. Which I don't know, I've seen mini pcs at 200 bucks running windows 10 pro however unsure of the legitimacy of those.

Maybe desktop (or my little netbook laptop) WiFi connection to Beryl -> Beryl router to ethernet cable -> mini pc (the u57) -> rig.

Sigh. Was hoping for a Linux solution for this but the autofocus issues basically renders this idea out the window. As soon as I introduced an auto focuser into the system I've had issues and weirdness after I've removed things.

I still don't even know if the Beryl connected via ethernet cable to rig is going to help. It's basically serving as a access point and range extender to get better WiFi signal into the house.

As far as a windows based set up, guessing it'll take the better part of a day. Need ascom drivers, nina, zwo drivers for every piece of equipment, drivers for usb hub, make sure to never swap ports by accident, I'm sure other software and drivers I can't think of right now. Guess this route is plan c as something to build to. Will also need a spot to set the box up to get it prepped.

For now I might have a halfway set up with the asiair. Needs range testing and debugging.

Chrome remote desktop might be an idea also.

Win10 S is a 'lite' version Win OS designed to compete with the Chrome OS. However, you have the option (and you need to do this to use CRD) to convert it to a full version of Win10 Home, for free, when activating it. 

 

The problem with mini PCs is the lack of a monitor, which I find essential for setup at the mount.

 

I control two mounts, cameras, AGs, and focuser remotely via CRD. It's dead simple after the netbooks get up and running at the mount:

 

CRD dual control


#22 bobzeq25

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Posted 14 June 2021 - 12:07 PM

A couple questions: while I am setting up a wires computer to computer network (or I suppose even wirelessly through the Beryl I got for this task -if the blasted thing actually works) should both computers / devices be hooked up to a monitor? Does the host actually need a monitor keyboard and mouse for the initial set up?


 

What I did.  Got a NUC with Windows 10.  Connected it in my house with a keyboard, monitor, and mouse long enough to download Teamviewer.  Did an initial connection to see the access code.

 

Now I could put it in the observatory and run it remotely from my desktop over my home wifi.  No keyboard, mouse, monitor needed.  I can download and install any software.

 

People tie themselves into all kind of knots trying to avoid Windows 10 and wifi.  They use Mac, Linux (which I use for processing).   Other complicated approaches.  Routers.  Raspberry Pis.   USB repeaters.  And on and on.

 

Windows 10 and Teamviewer, in my experience, is a very simple approach. 

 

It.      Just.     Works.  If you need a wifi booster, they're easy too.


Edited by bobzeq25, 14 June 2021 - 12:09 PM.

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#23 wxcloud

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Posted 11 July 2021 - 05:56 PM

Kind of a mini update I suppose but I think I'm starting to understand the need to remote into a scope side computer. One quite possibly is latency... And the other? Convenience.

I had my first short outing in months the other evening, mostly a trial run on a few things (I still don't know if it's software or mount issues wrecking my guiding, which is why I used "latency")

I'm sure running a 20 meter repeater cable to a scope that is for the most part at least semi permanent, it was a bit of a headache while getting everything set up. The guide scope mostly... I needed to run outside, make a minor adjustment, run back in, check the loop and repeat.

Hey, a new cardio exercise routine! Remote scope-ercise!

Anyway it worked kind of, not sure if the long cable trashed the guide session which was basically useless, but it struck me that I wish I could have had a monitor in hand to check the adjustments instead of running back and forth.

So, yes I'm finally understanding why tempting into the scope side computer is probably a good idea :)

The similar set up with the asiair (also very botched guiding for some reason) had me running in and out to fiddle with things.

Guess it'd be better to sit outside, get everything adjusted and started and walk away from it and periodically check in remotely.


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