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Oberwerk 15x70 Deluxe Report

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#1 John Miele

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 07:55 PM

I thought I'd share my impressions of my new Oberwerk 15x70 binoculars. I know there is no real shortage of reviews for this model, but I think it never hurts to have more data points when people are trying to decide on a purchase.

 

Caveat up front: I am not a binocular expert at all so this is 100% a layman's review!

 

First of all, I ordered them earlier this week and they arrived only two days after ordering!

 

The shipping  box was well packed. With multiple layers of bubble wrap around the aluminum case and foam blocks in each corner so that the case was fully suspended within the box. I liked that.

 

The case is very nice. Quite sturdy. Locking and plenty of foam. The case contained a signed and dated Oberwerk inspection card filled out for this unit and an Oberwerk ink pen...nice touches!

 

The binoculars feel very sturdy and solid. Heavier than I thought which does not bode well for the monopod but we shall see...lol! 

 

I gave them a hard "shake" test and nothing rattles. Always a good sign! Then I closely inspected the coatings and lenses and they appeared perfect. No blemishes or any noticeable imperfections. I looked internally and nothing seems out of whack but I'm not sure if I could tell it it was. The IPD adjustment motion is smooth and solid. It fit my eye spacing fine. The focus motion is smooth but the right eye diopter adjustment was a little coarse feeling...but workable. The objective caps are a tight fit and look good. The eye lens caps are pretty tight and very hard to remove in one pull. But I just sort of slowly wiggle them back and forth and they came off with no issue. Gentle is the keyword here.

 

The next test was critical and one of the reasons I chose this model. Was there enough eye relief to see the full FOV with my glasses one? YES! With the eyecups fully retracted, I could easily see the field stop all the way around and it was a sharp field stop. I could probably even extend the eyecups a little more if I wanted to.  Now this was in the daytime and I don't know if this will translate into the same for nighttime views yet. Looking outside during these overcast afternoons, the optics appear sharp and well focused. But the stars are the real test. I have had nothing but clouds and rain here here for days and days. Hoping that tomorrow night might clear up so I can give impressions of the night sky view.

 

cs...John!

 

 

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#2 John Miele

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 07:56 PM

more...

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#3 Fiske

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 11:02 PM

Congrats on the new binocular, John. Nice report! waytogo.gif

 

We were socked in with rain and clouds for weeks in Kansas City. And have had clear nights for about the past week. I was staying up until 1 and 3 am every morning. lol Finally had to take a break! It was cloudy last night. Thank goodness!

 

Hope you have clear skies tonight. Looking forward to your first light report with the 15x70 Deluxe. 

 

Fiske



#4 Rich V.

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 11:13 PM

Those look nice, John.  There are times the CF should be handy with a 15x70; I find that size bino is quite handy night and day..  Nice they came with a hard case.

 

Hope the clear weather comes soon for you.

 

Rich


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#5 Erik Bakker

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 04:49 AM

These look well packed and individually inspected waytogo.gif

 

When eyerelief is enough during the day, it should be even better at night. In the dark, views become easier to take in.

 

Look forward to your first light under the stars.


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#6 John Miele

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 08:32 AM

That is good to hear!

 

I looked around some more this morning at some birds in my backyard tree tops. The focus is really sharp. And for daytime use, I found I can hand hold these with  acceptable steadiness for 15 to 30 second bursts of viewing. Then they get a little heavy and I have to rest my arms a bit. Need to hit the gym more...lol!

 

The field stop upon more daytime scrutiny is not quite as sharp as I first thought it was. It is a little fuzzy but that does not detract at all from the view. My eyeglass lenses are thin and the FOV is fully visible. I have to get snug with the eye lens but am by no means jamming my eye in to the eyecup..


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#7 Fiske

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 11:29 AM

And for daytime use, I found I can hand hold these with  acceptable steadiness for 15 to 30 second bursts of viewing. Then they get a little heavy and I have to rest my arms a bit. Need to hit the gym more...lol!

Or just keep observing with the 15x70s hand held. wink.gif


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#8 John Miele

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Posted 16 June 2021 - 06:59 PM

I just got back from an impromptu  dark sky trip with these 15x70s so the first light was under excellent conditions.

 

The "nits: up front...

 

1. after a few uses, I don't like the objective lens covers. They are hard to pop in place and I almost slipped and wiped my thumb across my brand new lens. Just missed it. I'll be looking for replacement covers.

 

2. The focuser action is stiff. Almost too stiff. Is there a way to lubricate the focusing mechanism?

 

3. There is a small amount of backlash in the focuser. Not enough to cause a problem. But noticeable especially with the stiff focusing action.

 

Now the performance...

 

Spectacular! The Moon was sharp and rich with craters. There was a very small greenish rim around the lit side. CA I suppose. Not really an issue and seen nowhere else. But the crater shadows were sharp and black. Earthshine looked cool. Very pleasing view.

 

The stars were sharply focused over maybe about 70% of the field. Very acceptable to me. Collimation looked spot on. There was no flaring on bright stars. Just really beautiful views of the Milky Way. The contrast was excellent. M24 showed several dark dusty regions snaking around. M4 almost looked like it was resolving. The false comet region in southern Scorpius was spectacular. M6 and M7 were jewel boxes! M22 again looked like it was almost resolving. Saturn clearly sowed an elongated football like shape telling me the rings were there!

 

This binocular did exactly what it should with wide deep sky views at a dark site and I had a blast using it.

 

I was using it on my monopod with a Manfretto pistol grip. This worked surprisingly well. Although a true P mount would be better and is eventually coming.

 

For the money this is a fantastic binocular and I am glad I went with this model.

 

John


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#9 ECP M42

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Posted 16 June 2021 - 07:42 PM

Hi John, in any case I recommend you contact Oberwerk. But I try to answer. 

 

2. The focuser action is stiff. Almost too stiff. Is there a way to lubricate the focusing mechanism?

 

3. There is a small amount of backlash in the focuser. Not enough to cause a problem. But noticeable especially with the stiff focusing action.

Unfortunately, that type of focuser is bad and low quality. The only reason for using it is the low production cost, which however also brings with it a low mechanical level.

Sorry to read this (but thank you for reporting it), because this type of binoculars are on my shopping list.

 

I have never disassembled an Oberwerk, but they also use the same type of focuser on cheap models such as LW or SkyMaster (Celestron). And I know that to get your hands on it, you need a bit of dexterity and even luck.

The good fortune not to break the rubber of the wheel.

 

If the focuser is like that of the Skymaster 15x70, under the rubber there is a plastic cover that allows you to see the mechanism when removed. But you can't do much if you don't open the binoculars in two, among other things, losing the nitrogen inside when you remove the eyepieces.

The solutions to annihilate the mechanical game are complex, even becoming "too" expensive. However, you could replace the sticky grease with a more fluid one and at least improve that. 

 

But do you really need a smoother focus wheel?

 

I ask, because once fluid, the adjustment on the stars could become a little more ballerina. Again, that mechanic in my opinion is genetically stupid, and if the manufacturers didn't use that sticky fat, sticking you to the eyepieces would move the focus.

 

I know my words have been very harsh and that Oberwerk will tell you that it is not possible to solve your problems, but at least we had a chat ... across the ocean waytogo.gif  


Edited by ECP M42, 16 June 2021 - 07:49 PM.


#10 OBERWERK

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Posted 17 June 2021 - 08:23 AM

Hi John, in any case I recommend you contact Oberwerk. But I try to answer. 

 

Unfortunately, that type of focuser is bad and low quality. The only reason for using it is the low production cost, which however also brings with it a low mechanical level.

Sorry to read this (but thank you for reporting it), because this type of binoculars are on my shopping list.

 

There is no sticky grease used in our center focusers.  Any stiffness or backlash in focusing is not from the focuser.  To seal in the nitrogen, there are O-rings on the eyepieces that ride on the inside of the aluminum guide tubes that extend out from the prism covers.  Any stiffness felt while focusing is from the friction of the O-rings against the guide tubes.  This can also cause a little backlash due to the distance of the point of friction to the focuser.  There is a small amount of light grease on the inside of the guide tubes, so with a new binocular, it helps to run the focuser from end to end a couple times at the start of each observing session.  The friction will gradually lessen with usage.  This applies to  all of our waterproof center-focus models.


Edited by OBERWERK, 17 June 2021 - 10:02 AM.

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#11 John Miele

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Posted 17 June 2021 - 11:11 AM

Thanks Kevin and ECP M42 for your comments. I will see if it this does loosen up a bit over time. It is still pretty much "factory fresh". However, I can still focus to sharp stars and it holds position perfectly. So perhaps, this is not actually a bad thing.

 

I also figured out a better way to put on the lens covers. I align them to the end of the barrel and then use my palm to apply more of a uniform pressure over the entire cover and now they tend to pop right in. 

 

I am still well pleased with this purchase!

 

cs...John


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#12 ECP M42

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Posted 17 June 2021 - 09:13 PM

There is no sticky grease used in our center focusers.  Any stiffness or backlash in focusing is not from the focuser. 

 

 

... with a new binocular, it helps to run the focuser from end to end a couple times at the start of each observing session.

You were right to point out about the grease, thanks. O-rings are also on Skymasters, but the focuser is smeared of sticky grease. With these, your advice doesn't work much.

But the important thing is that the automatic translator has replaced "mechanic game" for "amount of backlash". And that's what I got from John. While he only talked about stiffness or backlash. I replied for an unspoken mechanic game (too wide mechanical tolerance - which in fact, that type of focuser often presents). 

 

I'm looking for a binocular for the day and night, with a central focuser that is fluid for the fauna, but solid for the stars. The Deluxe model is very interesting for this double task, but from how you and John describe it, the focuser does not seem suitable here too. 

 

Perhaps, there is a simple mechanical solution, but for now I don't see binoculars on the market with that particular feature (beyond the Steiner). 

 

 

 

Thanks Kevin and ECP M42 for your comments.

Just a chat about the tools we use!

Your binoculars are very nice and I also think you have made a very good purchase. 

 

 

Henry


Edited by ECP M42, 17 June 2021 - 09:13 PM.


#13 OBERWERK

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Posted 17 June 2021 - 10:35 PM

 

I'm looking for a binocular for the day and night, with a central focuser that is fluid for the fauna, but solid for the stars. The Deluxe model is very interesting for this double task, but from how you and John describe it, the focuser does not seem suitable here too. 

 

Perhaps, there is a simple mechanical solution, but for now I don't see binoculars on the market with that particular feature (beyond the Steiner). 

 

 

I think you missed my point.  You made a lot of incorrect statements about Oberwerk focusers, even though you've never tried one- yet you presented your assumptions as fact- "Unfortunately, that type of focuser is bad and low quality".  The fact is the center focusers on the Deluxe Series are among the best on the market.  They don't drift from pressure on the the eyepieces.  That's not due to the use of "sticky grease", it's due to a slower design that makes the focuser shaft pin-to-focuser wheel spiral track contact more of a wall than a ramp.  While it's true that the Porro models don't have the light touch of our roof prism models (or non-waterproof models), any "stiffness" is simply eyepiece O-ring friction as I already explained.  That's not to say that there there is any problem with the focuser, it's just an explanation why they are stiffer than roof models.  So I disagree with your conclusion that "the focuser does not seem suitable here too".  As for "fluid for the fauna, but solid for the stars", I don't think there is any center-focus Porro waterproof binocular that is better than the Deluxe Series models.  


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#14 Xeroid

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 09:32 AM

applause.gif

 

I think you missed my point.  You made a lot of incorrect statements about Oberwerk focusers, even though you've never tried one- yet you presented your assumptions as fact- "Unfortunately, that type of focuser is bad and low quality".  The fact is the center focusers on the Deluxe Series are among the best on the market.  They don't drift from pressure on the the eyepieces.  That's not due to the use of "sticky grease", it's due to a slower design that makes the focuser shaft pin-to-focuser wheel spiral track contact more of a wall than a ramp.  While it's true that the Porro models don't have the light touch of our roof prism models (or non-waterproof models), any "stiffness" is simply eyepiece O-ring friction as I already explained.  That's not to say that there there is any problem with the focuser, it's just an explanation why they are stiffer than roof models.  So I disagree with your conclusion that "the focuser does not seem suitable here too".  As for "fluid for the fauna, but solid for the stars", I don't think there is any center-focus Porro waterproof binocular that is better than the Deluxe Series models.  


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#15 ECP M42

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 11:02 AM

Unfortunately, the balance of my experience with sellers is on average negative, since it is always difficult to have technical explanations that are consistent with reality. The sellers have the sole task of selling something, bewitching customers with super-bright colors and special effects, also using big words and acronyms of which they do not even know the meaning. And they don't care if something is blue or red, their only intent is to sell it to you, even if it's not the right thing for you. 

 

I think you missed my point.  You made a lot of incorrect statements about Oberwerk focusers, even though you've never tried one- yet you presented your assumptions as fact- "Unfortunately, that type of focuser is bad and low quality".

Maybe I need to clarify. I specified from the beginning that I did not know the Deluxe focuser. And I was talking in general about my experiences with that type of focuser. I had specified that I did not know him and never checked him personally and I was just replying to John, who had (according to the wrong machine translation) the same feelings I had with that type of focuser. This is a "modern" type that is also used in $ 30 binoculars.

 

Sorry, but my intentions weren't to bury Oberwerk's focuser. And I am very pleased that you are detailing how it works in the Deluxe. In my opinion, this is additional information that can only do good for Oberwerk's sales.

And now that there is also a branch in Europe, I'm glad there is.

 

As you are explaining now, the Deluxe focuser has a much tighter pitch and does not yield to pressure on the eyepieces (how many total turns and how many turns does it make between close range and infinity?). Probably in this way it also has less "mechanical adjustment play" or none at all (You can confirm?).

I even wanted to ask you for photos about the inside of the focuser, to understand the actual step of the shift, but then I thought it wasn't that important for others. While it is, because users with some more knowledge prefer to understand how things really are. Or at least that's what it seems, seeing all those "like" to your posts. wink.gif

 

Do you really think my intent is to harm Oberwerk?



#16 Echolight

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 01:19 PM

blahblah.gif


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#17 OBERWERK

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 02:39 PM

 

Do you really think my intent is to harm Oberwerk?

Probably not your intent, but when you say "that type of focuser is bad and low quality. The only reason for using it is the low production cost", that's not helpful ;)   Yes- all current center focusers (as far as I know) use the same "modern" design.  The only CF model we carried that wasn't of this design was the 22x100 (discontinued almost 20 years ago). That focuser was problematic, and most of them have failed by now, while the "modern design" lasts forever - or until a hard impact on the extended eyepieces shears off the brass pin (and that's fixable).  So it's the implementation that makes the difference, especially when used on a larger binocular.  Is it robust enough, is there minimal backlash, are the ocular arms stiff and well-supported to minimize flex (ours are machined aluminum with wide brass washers, many others today are plastic)?   

Now if you simply wanted to make the case that IF is superior to CF, I wouldn't disagree with your opinion.  


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#18 Cestus

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 03:06 PM

I have the 20x80 deluxe, so I expect it is of similar design. My roof prisms are indeed a lighter touch. However, I have not had any problem with the deluxe model. It seems to work fine and is just a bit stiffer. The covers were a bit difficult at first, but I also use the "palm" technique now to put them on. Great minds think alike.


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#19 ECP M42

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 04:12 PM

"The only reason for using it is the low production cost", that's not helpful wink.gif   

Ok, that's not helpful, but that's the truth. In the sense that I don't remember high quality binoculars (or as they always say, Alpha binoculars) using them. 

However, still some "Alpha" binoculars are produced with the "old" focuser, such as Swaro Habicht or Nikon E II, plus many others of the Deluxe class (more or less).

 

 

Anyway, you convinced me!  wink.gif  I'll take a Deluxe, waytogo.gif  ... hoping that "is there minimal backlash" and that the rotation becomes smoother over time.

 

 

PS: how many total laps and how many laps does it make between close range and infinity? 



#20 ECP M42

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 04:18 PM

Now if you simply wanted to make the case that IF is superior to CF, I wouldn't disagree with your opinion. 

I don't know, but I'd agree with yours, that IF is superior to CF!



#21 OBERWERK

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Posted 19 June 2021 - 05:56 AM

Ok, that's not helpful, but that's the truth. In the sense that I don't remember high quality binoculars (or as they always say, Alpha binoculars) using them. 

However, still some "Alpha" binoculars are produced with the "old" focuser, such as Swaro Habicht or Nikon E II, plus many others of the Deluxe class (more or less).

 

 

Anyway, you convinced me!  wink.gif  I'll take a Deluxe, waytogo.gif  ... hoping that "is there minimal backlash" and that the rotation becomes smoother over time.

 

PS: how many total laps and how many laps does it make between close range and infinity? 

OK- I get it.  A couple "Alpha" CF Porro models still use "old style" focusers, anything else using "modern" (bad, low-quality) CF focusers won't compare.  It's nice that you'd like to buy a 25x100 Deluxe, available in your choice of IF or CF (you should get the IF ;)  But I'm afraid that when you compare that $469 binocular to our $3000 BT-100XL-SD, you will find much to complain about.


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#22 Fiske

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Posted 19 June 2021 - 07:04 AM

As a new owner of an OB 25x100 Deluxe IF binocular I'm not complaining. It's an amazing value. grin.gif

 

Fiske


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#23 ihf

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Posted 19 June 2021 - 09:29 AM

Fiske, can you defocus one of the tubes of the 25x100, point it at a bright star and tell us what you see?



#24 Fiske

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Posted 19 June 2021 - 10:56 AM

They look like big balls. lol.gif I do it all the time switching between glasses and uncorrected vision. I've already tried the 25x100 with glasses to confirm the eye relief is enough for me to comfortably view with glasses -- which is why I want to do something about the filter rings.

 

Is there something in particular you want me to look for?

 

The stars aren't distorted -- I mean not at the center of the FOV anyway. Actually, the field is reasonably flat -- not a lot of curvature. The most noticeable difference between the OB 25x100 and the APM is going to be the CA, as Rich already stated. It's not bad in the OB, but you can see it.

 

The odd thing about CA is that you have to train yourself to see it. This was driven home to me years ago when I was chatting with a good friend who owns a wild bird store. We were looking at a binocular in his inventory and I commented on the CA, which was not well controlled and was stunned to discover he didn't know what I was talking about. A wildlife biologist for like 17 years and one of the best birders I know who uses binoculars constantly. I spent about 20 minutes with him explaining how to see CA in the instrument and when he finally got it he was amazed. Started looking at multiple different instruments for CA. smirk.gif

 

I noticed on my next visit a few weeks later that the whole CA thing had dropped off his radar screen, and I've never brought up the subject again. What's the point?

 

I expect this is somewhat hard to believe for people who have hypersensitized themselves to CA (unintentionally without realizing what was happening.) I'm completely serious about this. Not joking. You start looking for it, you train yourself to see it, then you can't not see it and it becomes irritating. It is a mild form of trauma. lol There is a wonderful book titled The Coddling of the American Mind by Lukianoff and Haidt which is about how college students are being hyper-sensitized to anything they don't want to hear by all the avoidant behavior patterns -- trigger warnings, etc. being adopted in college class rooms. Exactly the opposite from what is done in cognitive behavior therapy to desensitize people suffering from PTSD and similar disorders. So you might consider CBT as an alternative to buying an APM 25x100. lol.gif lol.gif lol.gif  (Okay, that was a joke. I'm sure it is an excellent binocular.)

 

Fiske


Edited by Fiske, 19 June 2021 - 10:57 AM.

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#25 Echolight

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Posted 19 June 2021 - 11:19 AM

Kind of like the CA sufferings of others I encountered when I bought a 6 inch f8 achro. Some said it made them physically ill! And the abuse that was hurled towards me and heaped on me for not being bothered by it when I looked at Jupiter. I was trying to see the GRS and other features on the planet, not looking for a purple halo around it!lol.gif


Edited by Echolight, 19 June 2021 - 11:20 AM.

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