Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Dark site anxiety

  • Please log in to reply
128 replies to this topic

#76 vsteblina

vsteblina

    Vanguard

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,496
  • Joined: 05 Nov 2007
  • Loc: Wenatchee, Washington

Posted 30 June 2021 - 08:30 PM

   If you're on public land or private property without permission, you have no business asking anybody what they're doing there..........................

Well that got my attention.

 

Out west....almost ALL public land is open for public use WITHOUT PERMISSION 24 HRS a  DAY. 

 

Why would anybody in their right mind ask if somebody had permission???

 

I have had people confront me while hunting or sightseeing on public land.  I simply called the local county sheriff and asked them to come out and talk to the folks "trying to kick me off MY public land"!!!

 

It did work REAL WELL when I worked for the Forest Service.  Yeah, blocking a Forest Service road  and stopping the public WILL get you in trouble real quick with a Federal judge.,

 

AND as my Forest Service Law Enforcement Officer said...."the closest person to GOD you will encounter on this orb is a Federal judge and the County Sheriff".  Be kind to both.
 


Edited by vsteblina, 30 June 2021 - 08:42 PM.

  • csa/montana, Rickycardo, mountain monk and 1 other like this

#77 airbleeder

airbleeder

    Vanguard

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,397
  • Joined: 04 Jan 2014
  • Loc: Powder Springs, Georgia

Posted 30 June 2021 - 09:41 PM

   To clarify, I was referring to permission on private property, not public. I wouldn't ask anyone if they had permission either. I was responding to post #73.



#78 Tony Flanders

Tony Flanders

    Hubble

  • *****
  • Posts: 19,961
  • Joined: 18 May 2006
  • Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA

Posted 01 July 2021 - 03:59 AM

The most dangerous trips I've done involved snowy mountains. With these I get to worry about car accidents, car troubles, hypothermia, bears, and cell reception. There is a high reward that goes with this since mountains tend to be the darkest areas around here. But for me there's only so much risk and driving I'm going to take to look at stars.


Bears hibernate during the winter. Besides, I have never heard of any incident where bears bothered an amateur astronomer during any season in any location.

 

Hypothermia should be a non-issue as well. Appropriate astronomy clothing, by definition, should keep you comfortable if you stay outside all night. There's a long, long way between being uncomfortable and being dangerously cold. Especially if you can retreat to your car for shelter.

 

In case of car troubles, the worst that will happen is you wait until dawn and walk out.


  • Diana N and airbleeder like this

#79 Starman81

Starman81

    Soyuz

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,834
  • Joined: 06 Mar 2008
  • Loc: Metro Detroit, MI, USA

Posted 01 July 2021 - 10:43 AM

 

First time or few times out, just take some basic gear that is quick and easy to pack away such as a small grab n go scope. Don't eat any spicy food within 24 hours of your trip. Seriously don't.

 

 

Underrated advice! DON'T ask me how I know! lol.gif lol.gif


  • DSOGabe likes this

#80 DSOGabe

DSOGabe

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,243
  • Joined: 02 Aug 2019
  • Loc: El Paso, TX

Posted 01 July 2021 - 04:01 PM

I've been spooked off from observing more than once due to irrational fears. For me it's usually general fear of the dark and paranoia that gets to me. In forested areas, which is most of New England, there's a constant soundtrack that feeds into this. To make things worse, I've gone to sites that I haven't seen during the daytime, so my comfort level there is low from the start.

 

I'm careful about choosing public lands so I've never had to worry about angry property owners or anything like that. I've seen a few police patrols and they never even questioned my activities, but they have chased off the "teens up to no good" I was observing alongside.

 

The most dangerous trips I've done involved snowy mountains. With these I get to worry about car accidents, car troubles, hypothermia, bears, and cell reception. There is a high reward that goes with this since mountains tend to be the darkest areas around here. But for me there's only so much risk and driving I'm going to take to look at stars.

 

These days I mainly stick to private properties I have permission to be on, usually with friendlies present and a warm house I can retreat to. If my mind isn't at ease, I can't enjoy stargazing.

Definitely go there during the day to scout the area out. Then go out there with no gear, just to get used to the location and the night sounds. Sounds like the places are mostly free of signs of people which is always a good thing. It take multiple trips to get used to the site



#81 treadmarks

treadmarks

    Apollo

  • -----
  • Posts: 1,259
  • Joined: 27 Jan 2016
  • Loc: Boston MA

Posted 01 July 2021 - 05:33 PM

Bears hibernate during the winter. Besides, I have never heard of any incident where bears bothered an amateur astronomer during any season in any location.

 

Hypothermia should be a non-issue as well. Appropriate astronomy clothing, by definition, should keep you comfortable if you stay outside all night. There's a long, long way between being uncomfortable and being dangerously cold. Especially if you can retreat to your car for shelter.

 

In case of car troubles, the worst that will happen is you wait until dawn and walk out.

Well you're right Tony, but I did start by saying the fears are irrational grin.gif But since you brought it up - I have heard a story from a club member about a bear bothering someone. No attack, it just seemed interested in him, maybe some curiosity about what this crazy human is doing out here in the middle of the night. That said, this story doesn't bother me, mostly due to its location, a place where I feel very safe when stargazing (Westford).

 

Anyway, yes - the most I have to worry about is some fiasco, discomfort, or a bad night - not meeting my fate among the stars. That's enough for me though - I've had my fair share of astro fiascos and now I'm focused on having a good experience, not just surviving the night.


  • Diana N likes this

#82 Rollo

Rollo

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,042
  • Joined: 16 Aug 2006
  • Loc: Florida

Posted 01 July 2021 - 06:00 PM

This is what I have seen many times at our dark sky site for the past 20+ years.   People come up there all excited, buy a new scope and camping gear.   Then after 6 months or a year,, you don't see them any more, they give up and quit,, sell everything.   They don't like the hot or cold,, the bugs, the rain, or it's just to much work for them setting everything up and tearing down,,or to far to drive up there.   I have heard all the excuses why they don't end up staying in the hobby.   IMO,, this hobby is not for the faint hearted or for people that cannot put up with some adversity.   Many love the idea of looking at cool things through a telescope,, but are not ready for everything else that can come with it.   This topic has reaffirmed everything I have seen and experienced while viewing at dark sky sites with other people.   The only solution for some of us is to buy property at a dark sky site and build a observatory on it with a fence surrounding the property.   Even then, it can be a little scary if your by yourself sometimes.    Good topic and great discussion ! 


  • payner, BlueMoon and CeeKay like this

#83 KI5CAW

KI5CAW

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 146
  • Joined: 07 Nov 2019
  • Loc: East Mountains, New Mexico

Posted 02 July 2021 - 10:25 AM

My only experience with Darwin, CA. was an uncomfortable one. It was during my undergraduate geology field camp; we were driving toward Darwin when we encountered a lone Black man walking along with a gas can in his hand. We pulled over and asked what was up; he informed us that the gas station in Darwin had refused him service. We gave him a ride, bought him a burger, paid for his gas, and since I had a 10" Newtonian with me, invited him and his family to camp with us and look through it. The family agreed and we all had a great time. The point is, that while dark skies can often be found in the more rural areas, so can unfriendly rural residents. So, I always stick to public lands, away from towns, if I'm observing rurally. Forest Service campgrounds are my go-to.


  • Rollo, Diana N and treadmarks like this

#84 belliott4488

belliott4488

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 335
  • Joined: 05 Oct 2020
  • Loc: MD, US

Posted 02 July 2021 - 10:59 AM

I'm wondering if there are any other beginners that are having the same troubles I have, or tips from more experienced people. The last two or three times I've tried to make a trip somewhere to do observing I get too anxious and have to leave. Maybe it's because I've already had some strange random encounters trying to observe in Toronto during the lockdown, but a few days ago I drove over an hour out of the city to a spot, spent another 45 minutes setting everything up, and only lasted about 30 minutes of observing before I had to pack everything back into the car and drive home (I was planning on being there all night but left before midnight).

 

Part of me is worried about getting in trouble for trespassing or being in a provincial park after closing, but I'm not sure how much of a concern that is. Last time I was at Richardson's Lookout Point near the Ganaraska forest. No one was really there but the whole time I felt uncomfortable like I wasn't supposed to be there. Maybe I'm just crazy, I don't know... I thought I would be more excited, because I haven't seen dark skies like that in at least 15 years, and never through a telescope, but it still wasn't enough to keep me out there and the whole trip felt like a failure. 

 

For what it's worth, I've already been to a doctor and have some 'as needed' anti-anxiety medication, but trying to observe under the influence isn't fun, and I have enough trouble star hoping as it is. When I try to google 'stargazing anxiety' all I really see are articles on how stargazing is supposed to help with anxiety, not do the opposite!

 

One mistake I know I made was trying to carry too much heavy stuff too far, which wore me out (Richardson's Point is uphill and I had to make two trips with a CG-5 and G8-N). I also forgot some bugspray. Besides that I'm not sure what else I could do to make things easier. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I hope things are getting better for you. I've had some of the same difficulties you have, with regard to finding suitable dark locations, but they've troubled me less simply because I'm lucky enough to be fairly stable emotionally and do not get easily shaken.

 

Here are some experiences that I've learned from:

  • I managed to find one public park about an hour from where I live that is open 24/7. That helped a lot when I started out, but there are enough bright outdoor lights in the area to make it less than ideal for visual observation, since it's difficult to maintain my eyes' dark adaptation.
  • I later found a closer park that is only about 20 minutes away and is completely free of bright lights in my direct sight, but it's officially closed (but not locked) after dark. I took my chances a few times, but on the last time was "caught" by some local folks who live across from the park. As I'd hoped, they thought my reasons for being there were perfectly sensible and said that they didn't object, but they warned me that there were park patrol officers who might not agree and would ask me to leave. They invited me to go across the street to their property if that happened, but I never had to take them up on the offer, since the park patrol never appeared. The encounter was friendly enough, but I decided not to return in case the next time wouldn't be so.
  • I finally joined a local astronomy club, which has completely resolved these problems. They have an agreement with the local county which lets them open two parks that would otherwise be closed after dark. There are the usual arrangements made for insurance and security, and the club  "pays back" the county by holding regular star parties that are open to the public. In addition, they hold members-only star parties, both scheduled and "impromptu" parties, the latter being arranged by email, typically on the day they occur.  This gives me free and clear access to sites that have no visible outdoor lights. It's a very nice amenity that easily makes the annual dues worthwhile.

I'm lucky with that last item, but I went through the first two for many months before discovering it. You'll probably find something equally comfortable eventually, whether it's through an organization like a club or maybe through a friendly property owner who will be happy to have you on his property in exchange for an occasional peek through your scope. You never know how things might work out, but they often do, if you stay open to them.

 

Good luck!


  • izar187, Diana N and MSH like this

#85 jcj380

jcj380

    Vanguard

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,474
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2014
  • Loc: Hellinois

Posted 02 July 2021 - 04:45 PM

And avoid articles like these:  wink.gif

 

https://www.nytimes....k-colorado.html



#86 John Fitzgerald

John Fitzgerald

    In Focus

  • *****
  • Posts: 10,332
  • Joined: 04 Jan 2004
  • Loc: near Elkins and Pettigrew, Arkansas

Posted 02 July 2021 - 04:53 PM

Amateur astronomy is not for everyone.  If you are scared to be out, it's probably not a good hobby for you to enjoy.


  • mountain monk, airbleeder and steveincolo like this

#87 Creedence

Creedence

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 609
  • Joined: 09 Jan 2018
  • Loc: Florida

Posted 30 July 2021 - 10:29 PM

I had the opportunity to a dark sky site this evening.  This was my first "remote" (read: not in my backyard) viewing session I've had in nearly two years! I scouted it out before sunset and sat there in my car for a bit as the sun set.  It was eerily silent, and it certainly got plenty dark.  Wow, great view of the Milky Way around Scorpio and Sagittarius- you sure don't see THAT at home.

 

I felt good enough to go ahead and get everything set up.  Did I mention it was DARK?  I couldn't see a thing, but the sky was magnificent!...

 

I'm sure that noise I heard was my imagination...back to astro-stuff.  But I really can't shake the feeling that I'm not alone out here... My rational mind said: Man up.  This is REAL astronomy- enjoy it.

 

 

Just look at this cell phone pic of Venus I took in the Western Sky!!  Ah the majesty- I might even say resplendent.  If only I could shake the feeling that I'm being watched.

Attached Thumbnails

  • 1.JPG

Edited by Creedence, 30 July 2021 - 10:40 PM.

  • treadmarks and Bkmiller4463 like this

#88 river-z

river-z

    Messenger

  • -----
  • Posts: 444
  • Joined: 02 Nov 2019
  • Loc: Los Angeles

Posted 30 July 2021 - 11:15 PM

I guess everybody is different but I always figure the drive to the dark site is way more dangerous than the night out in some lonesome place.  people on the freeways are nuts.  


  • treadmarks, DSO Viewer AZ and Brianm14 like this

#89 izar187

izar187

    Aurora

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,684
  • Joined: 02 Sep 2006
  • Loc: 43N

Posted 31 July 2021 - 01:51 AM

I guess everybody is different but I always figure the drive to the dark site is way more dangerous than the night out in some lonesome place.  people on the freeways are nuts.  

Unless one telescopes until dawn, and perhaps takes a nap before heading home, then a drive home tired after dark is likely the most dangerous part of whole thing. My last visit to public land, the deer in the road on the way home in the dark, were a far more serious threat than any imaginary predators in the meadow.  


  • John Fitzgerald, mountain monk, Diana N and 2 others like this

#90 Jon Isaacs

Jon Isaacs

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 94,648
  • Joined: 16 Jun 2004
  • Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA

Posted 31 July 2021 - 02:43 AM

The best option is certainly a suitable site you have permission to use. Our club is fortunate to have a good site that we can use, but I've also gotten permission to observe other places and I know several club members have found private land convenient to them and gotten permission. Most people don't seem to mind letting responsible people use their land, but they may well mind people there unannounced. 

 

Many parks are officially closed dusk to dawn, but it often seems more a way to tell potential trouble-makers - the roving high school beer party, for example - to leave than a firm policy. I know amateurs in one of our town parks have been left alone once their purpose was known. This could always change, of course, and may depend some on who officially happens by. 

 

In many decades of observing, using both secluded rural sites I knew about and the club's various sites over the years, I've often observed by myself and never had any trouble.

 

Growing up we spent a lot of time out after dark, playing flashlight tag and such, and being alone in the dark has never been an issue.

 

Clear skies, Alan

 

Different parts of the country and the world are quite different when it comes to access to land. In the west, there's a great deal of open land.  San Diego country is the 5th most populous county in the US but it's 3 million people are spread out over 4500 square miles and most of the population is concentrated in the coastal region,

 

About half the county is BLM land, National forest and the Anza-Borrego state park, the park itself is over 900 square miles. The mountains in this photo are the southern edge of the Anza-Borrego state park. 

 

5162860-Jewel Valley May 2010 to the north CN.jpg
 
Lots of viewing opportunities.
 
Jon

  • Diana N and Orion68 like this

#91 Tony Flanders

Tony Flanders

    Hubble

  • *****
  • Posts: 19,961
  • Joined: 18 May 2006
  • Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA

Posted 31 July 2021 - 07:01 AM

Different parts of the country and the world are quite different when it comes to access to land. In the west, there's a great deal of open land.


The key phrase there is "open land" -- open both in the sense of being officially open to almost unrestricted public use and also (more important for us easterners) open to the sky.

There's a great deal of public land in the Northeast that's open to almost unrestricted public use, including the Catskills and Adirondacks in NY and Green and White Mountain National Forests in northern New England. Sadly, it is covered with virtually unbroken forest, so finding good spots to view the sky is much easier said than done.


  • Diana N, Ihtegla Sar, rhetfield and 2 others like this

#92 Orion68

Orion68

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 750
  • Joined: 18 Jan 2014

Posted 31 July 2021 - 07:30 PM

You are not crazy to feel like this. 

In my area of Oregon the parks close at 11 PM so you can barely get set up before you have to tear down because a ranger or security guard is snarling at you to leave. So, the parks are out.

 

Trying to find a spot in the country that is not private property is nerve wracking and, frankly, not worth the effort.

 

There should be established areas in all communities that are maintained and open 24 hours for all of us telescope nerds.  It would be much more fund and safe to be surrounded by others like us when out late at night. This will never happen.

 

Joining a club is probably the best option because club members will know where you can go and not get kicked out.

 

As far as a gun goes, I'm absolutely packing when I go to a remote site at night. 


  • Diana N, Ihtegla Sar, FoxIslandHiker and 1 other like this

#93 stomias

stomias

    Vostok 1

  • ****-
  • Posts: 133
  • Joined: 02 Jan 2015
  • Loc: Blue Island IL

Posted 31 July 2021 - 08:01 PM

I have a very secluded, family owned land for 70 years, 40 acres in northern WI that I've been observing at for 40 years. I STILL get freaked out when alone. The first time some deer snorted after 3 hours of silence I almost **** myself. Same with a screech owl! The last 2 years bear activity has really ramped up! I keep a .357 magnum nearby. Helps a little but the ghosts and demons ARE NOT AFRAID of me being armed.........................................................................................................................I don't believe in zombies though, that's for fools...  smile.gif


Edited by stomias, 31 July 2021 - 08:02 PM.

  • Orion68, FoxIslandHiker and MSH like this

#94 izar187

izar187

    Aurora

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,684
  • Joined: 02 Sep 2006
  • Loc: 43N

Posted 31 July 2021 - 08:12 PM

I've had some success with logging cuts or habitat restoration areas in or near open sky, on public land.

As I walk and fish some of these places during the daylight hours, when I can, I also drive every place possible near around and thru them, specifically looking for spots to telescope from right beside my vehicle. Even selective hardwood forest cuts have more open sky, than the suburban forest I live in.

Not as open as rural sky, but public land is most often darker, is more secluded and therefore automatically safer.


  • ShaulaB, MSH and Brianm14 like this

#95 izar187

izar187

    Aurora

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,684
  • Joined: 02 Sep 2006
  • Loc: 43N

Posted 31 July 2021 - 08:19 PM


Joining a club is probably the best option because club members will know where you can go and not get kicked out.

 

 

 

This.

Clubs have all kinds of good folks in them, just like work and family does.

But there will be a sub-set of observers in the club, who will have knowledge of this.


  • Diana N and Orion68 like this

#96 John Fitzgerald

John Fitzgerald

    In Focus

  • *****
  • Posts: 10,332
  • Joined: 04 Jan 2004
  • Loc: near Elkins and Pettigrew, Arkansas

Posted 31 July 2021 - 09:20 PM

Several times, over the years, I have offered on here for any established CN member to use my dark site.  It's secluded, very dark, open, mowed, has electricity, and only 1.3 miles of gravel road off a state highway.  So far, not much interest, if at all.  Maybe it's too remote.....


  • paul, payner and Orion68 like this

#97 Brianm14

Brianm14

    Explorer 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 89
  • Joined: 21 Jun 2021
  • Loc: Charlotte, NC

Posted 31 July 2021 - 09:57 PM

These personal safety issues are not unique to our avocation.  People who backpack or rock climb and camp often feel quite uneasy the first night out. They, too, worry about bad people and rogue bears.  But if you take reasonable precautions and follow a few basic rules (don’t hang with stupid people, don’t say stupid things, and don’t go to stupid places) you can reduce your chances of encountering problems to an truly acceptable minimum.

 

But something else needs to be stressed here. Obtaining and carrying a firearm (or even pepper or bear spray) no more makes you competent at self-defense than merely buying and owning a guitar will make you a guitarist.  Competent instruction and some careful practice is needed in both instances!  Otherwise, you are lulling yourself into a false sense of security.  You also need to understand the applicable laws.  All of this takes time and effort.  Check with a local range, reputable gun shop, or gun club to find the right sort of instruction.

 

This doesn’t mean you can’t take steps now to protect yourself.  Here are some starters:  Don't frequent unusual or isolated areas alone.  When you go out, have some dependable transportation, a reliable cell phone connection, and a top-rated flashlight. Local sheriff’s offices and wildlife officers will have information about any recent history of trouble (with human or beast) and can advise you on the safety of particular areas.  Obtain this information as part of your homework.  Such measures should ease your fears.

 

I write this professionally, after spending some years in high-end security work as an armed, licensed private detective and also as a state-certified concealed firearms instructor.  My training and experience taught me that being prepared is far more about knowledge and mindset than about tools.

 

This is a wonderfully safe and peaceful hobby.

 

Be safe and enjoy many nights of clear skies!


Edited by Brianm14, 31 July 2021 - 10:00 PM.

  • Diana N, ShaulaB, Orion68 and 1 other like this

#98 stomias

stomias

    Vostok 1

  • ****-
  • Posts: 133
  • Joined: 02 Jan 2015
  • Loc: Blue Island IL

Posted 01 August 2021 - 06:50 AM

I own several guitars and have been a professional for 50 years smile.gif  . I own many weapons, and well trained with a CCW license. More importantly I live in Chicago and traveled the worst part of the south side for 35 years. :O smile.gif  I would NEVER advise someone to be cavalier with firearms


Edited by stomias, 01 August 2021 - 06:58 AM.

  • Diana N and Brianm14 like this

#99 DSO Viewer AZ

DSO Viewer AZ

    Explorer 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 80
  • Joined: 05 Jan 2020

Posted 01 August 2021 - 08:53 AM

West of Sierra Vista
Ready to go! Sierra Vista
Camp site.

Hey MSH, I’m sorry to hear of the anxiety your having, and completely understand. I have spent the last year working on getting to dark skies every new moon and may have a path that could help. I started with AirBnb locations in high bortle 3 sites, these are homes with fenced yards in strange to me locations. The fenced yards really brought a level of comfort in the beginning. Bortle 3 locations on Airbnb also tend to be pretty reasonable on cost. I found it great to be able to have a bed,warmth, and running water a few feet from where I was set up.  The viewing was AWESOME compared to my bortle 7/8 at home. I started with a full size house, then found another location in very low bortle 3 on a ranch with a “tiny house” also fully fenced. I began to become more comfortable with the silence and wild noises in the middle of the night. Then I went to state ran camp sites, complete with a tent platform and fire pit (which I had no need for), and most importantly other campers not to far away maybe a hundred yards away. This really helped my anxiety, there was just something comforting in knowing if I needed help fast, there would be people close by. I was able to find plenty of camp sites in bortle 2 locations, and visited a few. Lake locations seem to have much better open skies in my areas. There were plenty of the “bumps” in the night and eventually realized they wanted nothing to do with me.  More recently I have graduated to a low bortle 2 location on a 20,000 acre ranch. Nobody for miles and miles. However, while my anxiety is almost completely gone, if I turn off my music and red lights, and just settle in at 2 am, I still get a little spooked. I think some music playing low really takes away most of the anxiety. Doesn’t matter what your listening to, and doesn’t have to be loud. I think this helps keep critters away as well, most want nothing to do with humans, and music carries, so they tend to keep further distances, and you don’t spook them, which could be dangerous. This whole process has taken about a year, and I assure you it is worth all the trouble. I have seen sooo many amazing things that I thought were only seen by the “super observers”. Just like learning to use your scope, learning to be comfortable in dark skies is a process and should be taken in small steps I think. I wish you all the luck in the stars, and hope to read of your adventures in the future!!

Clear skies!


Edited by DSO Viewer AZ, 01 August 2021 - 08:55 AM.

  • paul, csa/montana, payner and 6 others like this

#100 csrlice12

csrlice12

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 28,824
  • Joined: 22 May 2012
  • Loc: Denver, CO

Posted 01 August 2021 - 10:28 AM

And sometimes guns will pull you into a sense of false security....really want to pi$$ off a large bear (especially a grizzly bear), shoot it with your 9mm...most the time the bullet gets trapped in it's dense fur and doesn't penetrate the skin, (or if it does, not far) it's  like body armour.....you, on the other hand, taste like dinner...and pulling your gun arm off is because gun arms taste better.


Edited by csrlice12, 01 August 2021 - 10:29 AM.

  • Diana N likes this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics