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Cartes Du Ciel 'Do Not Run as Administrator' issue.

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#1 Stonius

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 06:55 PM

Hey all,

 

I run Cartes Du Ciel with Voyager. It all works okay, but I get the message 'Do not run as administrator' in the CDC title bar. According to another post by Patrick Chevally on here, it can break things.

 

The problem is Voyager *requires to be run in administrator mode, so any additional programs it opens, such as CDC will also be run in admin mode.

 

I haven't noticed anything actually breaking as yet, but it does worry me. Anyone else have the same issue?

 

Cheers

 

Markus



#2 TelescopeGreg

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 07:27 PM

I believe the issue with running a program in Admin mode that doesn't need it is that any files written by it will require the admin privileges in the future.  One way path.  If its working, and you trust that the software won't do something to your system that non-admin would have saved you from, then it's no big deal.



#3 Lasko

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 09:38 PM

CdC 4.3 release notes:

 

Removed:
- Move SAC to obsolete catalog, replaced by OpenNGC
- Remove Iridium flare computation

Take note you must not run this software with administrator right.
Since the version 4.2 a warning is show in the title bar if you do so.
Now this version show a prompt every time the program is started in this mode.
In a future version the program will refuse to start in this case.
If you are currently running your astronomy software in administrator mode it is time to change that because this is totally useless. The important point is you run all your software with the same user. But running all with the standard user is much better than running all in administrator!



#4 Stonius

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Posted 19 June 2021 - 02:35 AM

And then there's this from tbe voyager installation wiki:
"Important Note! For Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows 8.1 and Windows 10 users: Voyager has to run with administrator privileges so it can communicate with other software. The installation program attempts to set administrator privileges but it is a good idea to confirm this was successful. The next instructions tell you how to do this."

Hmmmmmmm

#5 Patrick Chevalley

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Posted 20 June 2021 - 06:13 AM

Personally I would title this "Voyager insist to run as administrator issue".

 

As I reply to the same subject in the CdC group, I not see any reason to run Voyager in administrator if this is to "communicate with other software" when all this other software run as standard user.


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#6 Stonius

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Posted 20 June 2021 - 08:42 AM

Okay, so I heard back from the guys at Voyager - the deal is that Voyager *has to be in administrator mode because it is a system integrator, and this cannot be changed. Any software it starts will *also open in administrator mode, unless it was running already.

 

So in the case of CDC you just start it first, then start Voyager and CDC should be happy. I guess this will become the workaround if Patrick does change it so that it won't open in Administrator Mode.

 

Cheers

 

Markus

 

<edit> sorry Patrick, just saw your reply.


Edited by Stonius, 20 June 2021 - 08:57 AM.


#7 Patrick Chevalley

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Posted 20 June 2021 - 10:16 AM

Yes, starting CdC first so it is not started by Voyager is a solution because the TCP/IP interface work independently of the user that run the two program.

But in this case you must be careful to not open the telescope ASCOM driver in CdC if it is already open in Voyager, this is likely to not work.

 

Patrick


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#8 PincoPallo

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Posted 20 June 2021 - 10:46 AM

Personally I would title this "Voyager insist to run as administrator issue".

 

As I reply to the same subject in the CdC group, I not see any reason to run Voyager in administrator if this is to "communicate with other software" when all this other software run as standard user

If you dont see reason this not mean there isn't ...!


Edited by PincoPallo, 20 June 2021 - 10:47 AM.


#9 Patrick Chevalley

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Posted 20 June 2021 - 11:23 AM

Something that doesn't just have to be done once for a setup?

I am curious to know more ...



#10 Stonius

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Posted 21 June 2021 - 08:27 AM

Yes, starting CdC first so it is not started by Voyager is a solution because the TCP/IP interface work independently of the user that run the two program.

But in this case you must be careful to not open the telescope ASCOM driver in CdC if it is already open in Voyager, this is likely to not work.

 

Patrick

Yes, I found that to be the case. Glad there is a workaround though. I don't want to stop using CDC because I really like it!

 

Markus



#11 Bob Denny

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Posted 22 June 2021 - 02:25 PM

Personally I would title this "Voyager insist to run as administrator issue".

 

As I reply to the same subject in the CdC group, I not see any reason to run Voyager in administrator if this is to "communicate with other software" when all this other software run as standard user.

I must agree with Patrick here. Running a program "as Administrator" causes it to run in a separate process space within which the normal protections are blocked. It is like running a program with 'sudo'  on Linux, only worse. Windows protects programs that are not running "as Administrator" from access by elevated/privileged programs that are (and vice versa!). For example, say Voyager needs to talk to a mount via the excellent EQMOD Control System. If Voyager is running "as Administrator" it will not be able to talk to EQMOD unless it too is running "As Administrator". So now you must auto-start EQMOD with a connection from Voyager, or explicitly set it permanently to run  "As Administrator". But wait ... there's more... Now you want to use Cartes du Ciel to talk to the EQMOD. Well now that EQMOD is running "as Administrator" CdC cannot talk to the EQMOD.  Now you have to run CdC "as Administrator" to allow it to talk to EQMOD because it is running "as Administrator so that it can work with Voyager running "as Administrator"... see the problem? But wait, there's even more!!! Everything Voyager touches via ASCOM (focuser? camera? dome?) will also need to be running "as Admiinstrator" and thus all of the other programs that use any of those other devices will also need to be running "as Administrator". And none of these programs and device drivers are designed to run this way nor are they required to run privileged like that

 

So Patrick has it right: Because "Voyager insists on running as Administrator" it creates a "trail of tears" for any other programs  that share any devices in the modular system. Patrick is nicer than I am. If you try to run any of my software "as Administrator" I pop up a box

 

"Running ACP as Administrator is prohibited. If you think you need to do this, something else is wrong. Contact us for help"

 

and then immediately exit. 


Edited by Bob Denny, 22 June 2021 - 04:50 PM.

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#12 Patrick Chevalley

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Posted 22 June 2021 - 03:24 PM

Bob,

I will soon be as nasty as you smile.gif  

Yesterday I do a change, so now CdC show the following when started as administrator or root:

Carte du Ciel, like any other astronomy software, should never be run as an administrator, 
this is unnecessary, dangerous and a source of many unwanted problems.
The program will close now.
Please fix the start icon or command before trying again.

 


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#13 Tempus

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Posted 23 June 2021 - 07:12 AM

So I don't normally use Carte du Ciel so I thought I'd install it (thanks to this conversation). I'm personally against apps needing to run with admin rights but I think the responsibility of that decision is up to the user not the developer. I know, users are uninformed blah blah blah but we still let them drive and procreate. If I wanted that level of hand holding, I'd use nothing more than an iPad. 

 

That said, I downloaded the current 64 bit Windows version 4.2.1.  When I started to install, the first thing was a prompt to elevate as the installer will not run without elevated permissions. I stopped right there. If we are going to take a hard stance against running elevated apps, start with the installer - especially when coming from a source (SourceForge) with a shady history of bundling adware/malware in installers.  



#14 Patrick Chevalley

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Posted 23 June 2021 - 07:47 AM

Any installer require privilege elevation to install the software in "C:\Program Files". This is where Windows expect the software to be installed but the standard user cannot write file there.

This is the principle of privilege separation between the install process and the normal program use. During normal use no file in this directory or in system directory can be modified. This help to protect again viruses that try to temper any binary file they can.

 

If you really not want to give the installer this right you can install the program using the zip file available at the same location. Create a directory for CdC at any location you have access without privilege elevation, unzip and run the program from there.

 

The documentation also give information how to use this zip to make a portable installation on external media so CdC let absolutely no trace on the computer it run:

https://www.ap-i.net...le_installation


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#15 rgsalinger

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Posted 23 June 2021 - 11:05 AM

That answer from the Voyager crowd is pure nonsense. They are not a system integrator. If they actually had a reason - some advantage to be gained - it would be interesting to hear it. Instead, they always spout this non-reply. 

 

It's just another reason to stay away from that product. Just wait until some hacker gets at that code and you run it with privileges on your machine. I had the same experience when I used Voyager for a while. You had to start things in a particular sequence and some things - network drive access - simply didn't work at all. This is not a CDC or anyone else's problem. 

 

Rgrds-Ross


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#16 Steve Cox

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Posted 23 June 2021 - 11:47 AM

So I don't normally use Carte du Ciel so I thought I'd install it (thanks to this conversation). I'm personally against apps needing to run with admin rights but I think the responsibility of that decision is up to the user not the developer. I know, users are uninformed blah blah blah but we still let them drive and procreate. If I wanted that level of hand holding, I'd use nothing more than an iPad. 

 

That said, I downloaded the current 64 bit Windows version 4.2.1.  When I started to install, the first thing was a prompt to elevate as the installer will not run without elevated permissions. I stopped right there. If we are going to take a hard stance against running elevated apps, start with the installer - especially when coming from a source (SourceForge) with a shady history of bundling adware/malware in installers.  

I have downloaded and installed a great many apps and programs from Sourceforge the last 15 years and never once come across any bundled malware/adware, and yes, I scan everything both when it's downloading and once it's downloaded prior to doing anything with it.  Maybe in Sourceforge's distant past this was the case or maybe with the person offering a piece of software which is out of Sourceforge's control, but not with anything I've ever used.

 

edit - back on topic, I agree with rgsalinger above, this is strictly a Voyager issue, due to poor or sloppy programming requiring it to be run as admin.  No excuse for it and no way I'd put it on my computer if I did AP; I'd rather work manually between programs, or find another solution.


Edited by Steve Cox, 23 June 2021 - 11:50 AM.

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#17 Droppers

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Posted 08 September 2021 - 03:40 AM

I have used both CdC and Stellarium for some years now.  While the warning message regarding using CdC with no UAC or with admin privileges was slightly annoying in the past, this new enforcement message and the refusal to allow CdC to run under my chosen environment has made me take the decision to stop using CdC completely.



#18 Patrick Chevalley

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Posted 08 September 2021 - 03:59 AM

I am very happy with your decision, even it is based on a bad choice.

The most important for me is no one run CdC as admin anymore.


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#19 Bob Denny

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Posted 08 September 2021 - 10:43 AM

For context, and add to Patrick’s note … A huge source of pain for me is supporting people who try to run things “as Administrator” as a way to “fix” something. I too have made it impossible to run my own software ACP as Administrator. Instead it pops up a message saying “if you think you need this, something else is wrong. Contact us for support”, then it exits without ever showing its main window ha ha.

Also “no UAC” is not the same. With UAC turned off, all apps are placed into the same “less secure” environment. I can’t speak for Patrick, but in my case I permit ACP to work for people running the whole system with UAC off, though like Patrick I think it is a bad choice. The big problem comes when things that are supposed to work together are placed into two separate execution environments (created by UAC), cutting off communication between them.

If you are forced into running “as Administrator” by a specific piece of software, then that software has a huge bug. It’s not necessary and goes against Windows security rules. Ross @rgsalinger is right.
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#20 OldManSky

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Posted 08 September 2021 - 11:10 AM

Okay, so I heard back from the guys at Voyager - the deal is that Voyager *has to be in administrator mode because it is a system integrator, and this cannot be changed. Any software it starts will *also open in administrator mode, unless it was running already.

 

So in the case of CDC you just start it first, then start Voyager and CDC should be happy. I guess this will become the workaround if Patrick does change it so that it won't open in Administrator Mode.

 

Cheers

 

Markus

 

<edit> sorry Patrick, just saw your reply.

Sorry, but...that's not correct.

NINA, for example, is also a "system integrator."  Doesn't need to be in administrator mode.  Same with SGP and lots of other software.

This is a Voyager issue.  There are ways around it, but...yeah.



#21 Patrick Chevalley

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Posted 08 September 2021 - 11:35 AM

Bob,

 

I understand your point about "no UAC".

But ACP is a specialist tool that run in controlled observatory environment. If the computer with "no UAC" is not connected to the Internet I not see any problem (but also not see any advantage).

 

On the contrary CdC is used by many beginner and it is installed on general purpose computer or laptop.

I not want to make "no UAC" the bypass to run CdC as admin because in this case this is much worst because every application always run as admin. For example this make browsing the Internet with IE with admin right.

In this case the error message before CdC abort is: "UAC is disabled in the system, this is a very dangerous choice. Please enable UAC, or run the program from a standard, non-administrative user."


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#22 Bob Denny

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Posted 09 September 2021 - 09:47 AM

Patrick — I agree with you 100%




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