113 replies to this topic

[Obs30]

Aaaand there it goes, slipping a few more notches down on the 'maybe I'll try it' scale.

 

Can you not simply hardwire to it with cat5 straight from the computer's ethernet port and ignore wi-fi completely?

 

I'm not what you'd call 'up to speed' on networking, routers and such. Not saying I couldn't figure it out but the motivation to do so just isn't that strong yet.

Check out Aavlon’s facebook page. You can look at their posts and pictures even without a Facebook account.

 

They are offering the StarGO Plus for a special price these days. Especially, if you want to exchange it for the SG classic (Click here for link).

 

I was thinking about your set-up again. If you only want to run the scope through the SG+ and keep the long active USB cables to your computer, then there is no real need for an upgrade.

 

It would make sense to attach the cameras and all devices via USB cables to the SG+ and use one Ethernet cable to your router or computer. In this case, you use the INDI or ASCOM address & connection of SG+ to your computer.

I do not really see any advantage for you in this case to your current set-up.

 

What Avalon proposes you to do, is using a second computer and login remotely to the SG+ (via VNC) and run all the image acquisition and guiding from the SG+. While I found the KSTARS/EKOS interface not great, it would work, but you still need a second computer to display the SG+ interface… so where is the advantage? You can turn off that second computer and run everything on the SG+ locally at the mount independently, i.e. remotely.. This kind of works, if you attach a large hard disk to the USB3 connector of the SG+… otherwise the memory of the SG+ is very quickly filled up.

 

Last option is StellarMate or AstroBerry… that’s a post on its own ;-)

 

ASIAIR still does not seem to be an option… I am still hopeful that they will come up with a suitable INDI driver.

Edited by Obs30, 16 May 2023 - 03:33 PM.

[Mike7Mak]

I appreciate the tips and ideas but I don't think you're really getting my position on this. My only interest in StarGo+ or 2pro stems from the probability that it might be unavoidable IF I decide to replace my M-Uno with an M-Due (which is still an open question at this point). I only mentioned buying the SG+ as a way to try it out on my M-Zero. I have no desire to 'upgrade' either the Uno or Zero to SG+ so would not be trading in a StarGo classic.

 

You view the SG2 as an upgrade. Nothing wrong with that, for you. However I see SG2 as an annoying complication in the path to a slightly higher capacity mount and the sole reason I don't have an M-Due already.

 

IMO, Avalon is making a big mistake requiring you to use an 'all-in-one', RPi/Linux, asiair-like smart thingie as the only option to run their mounts. They should keep all the base models running on SGclassic and offer the + and 2pro as optional upgrades.

[Obs30]

Sorry, … yes, you were very clear about upgrading to the M-Due and replacing the SG version. My response was a bit out of this context. My apologies.

I fully agree with you, the upgrade to the newer controller should be optional. Better yet, have a classical SG that can properly handle the encoders of the M-Due without changing the interface and connectivity.

Edited by Obs30, 17 May 2023 - 01:07 PM.

[Avalon-instruments]

Hi all

 

We join the discussion with the purpose to clarify the philosophy behind the design of the StarGo2 Pro and the StarGo Plus controllers.

 

Following the current technology progress, our vision is to provide an innovative and open system that allows the astrophotography users to implement their own setup on an All in One Solution based on the INDI/ASCOM Alpaca protocol, compatible with all the operative system, however it can also be used as a simple mount controller only.

 

This also follow a growing trend that see a lot of users that are using micro computers embedded on their setup, reducing cabling, gaining a setup as more compact as possible, giving the opportunity to have a remote control also for a remote location.

 

That’s why we choose the Raspberry Pi solution, that solve all the above mentioned astrophotography needs.

 

Our system is based on Linux/INDI server with no limited function.

 

That means that it can works with every INDI/ASCOM Alpaca devices and system.

Lots of tests has been done, as shown in the StarGo2 Pro User Manual, that it is possible to download without registration on our Support page.

 

Probably the systems or devices that have problems to connect with the StarGo2 Pro, may have some kind of proprietary protocol policy that prevent the connection.

 

We continously work on the system in order to provide the full compatibility with operative systems update, drivers and devices but not always the issues come from our side.

 

As the thread is very long, this reply may not answer to all the questions arised before, however we are open to be more detailed in the next reply.

[Mike7Mak]

Hi all

 

We join the discussion with the purpose to clarify the philosophy behind the design of the StarGo2 Pro and the StarGo Plus controllers.

 

 

As the thread is very long, this reply may not answer to all the questions arised before, however we are open to be more detailed in the next reply.

Thanks for joining this discussion and offering to answer questions.

 

I have questions regarding the M-Due...

 

1...What are the mechanical differences from the M-Uno that give the M-Due its increased load capacity? ie. larger bearings? heavier belts? better motors? etc.

 

2...Does the M-Due use HQ stepper motors?

 

3...Is there a detailed description available about the encoders operational functions?

 

Such as...

 

3a...Do the encoders correct the slow 'periodic error' ie. drift of the belt drives?

 

3b...Do the encoders perform the function of 'Auto-tracking adjust' while guiding?

 

Bonus question (if 3a+b answers are negative). ...

 

Would it be possible to order an M-Due without encoders AND have it setup to operate with the original StarGo system? Perhaps with a custom mount config file?

 

Thanks again for any info you can provide.

[Obs30]

We join the discussion with the purpose to clarify the philosophy behind the design of the StarGo2 Pro and the StarGo Plus controllers.

Thank you! Highly appreciated!

Following the current technology progress, our vision is to provide an innovative and open system that allows the astrophotography users to implement their own setup on an All in One Solution based on the INDI/ASCOM Alpaca protocol, compatible with all the operative system, however it can also be used as a simple mount controller only.

This also follow a growing trend that see a lot of users that are using micro computers embedded on their setup, reducing cabling, gaining a setup as more compact as possible, giving the opportunity to have a remote control also for a remote location.
...

I fully agree on your motivation and following this trend. That's why I bought the StarGO2 Pro controller with the Raspberry Pi4 mini-computer running under LINUX and with INDI, ASCOM, KStars/EKOS, etc... pre-installed.

Our system is based on Linux/INDI server with no limited function.

That means that it can works with every INDI/ASCOM Alpaca devices and system.

Not 100% correct. What is still missing is the full support of the LX200 protocol under INDI.

Currently, you are providing two INDI wrappers ("drivers") for your own proprietary drivers: 1) SkySafari driver and 2) StarGO2 INDI driver, that is a pretty complete wrapper of your internal controllers. While the first one is extremely limited in its functionality (and outdated and buggy, I might add), the latter is not part of the INDILIB repository. This means, one either has very limited functionality or full access but "only" with INDI servers that accept your INDI interface.

INDIGO and ASIAIR are both based on INDI and fully support the classical LX200 protocol and the more modern onstep interface. Your wrappers/drivers and interfaces do NOT support these standardised protocols. So... sorry to say that, you are not compatible "with every INDI/ASCOM devices and systems".

Lots of tests has been done, as shown in the StarGo2 Pro User Manual, that it is possible to download without registration on our Support page.

Probably the systems or devices that have problems to connect with the StarGo2 Pro, may have some kind of proprietary protocol policy that prevent the connection.

I think you are referring to ZWO ASIAIR and INDIGO... Yes, they are proprietary considering their GUIs and algorithms, but their interfacing protocols and drivers are all based on open source drivers and in particular the very common LX200 protocol that you are not supporting. In a way your system is more proprietary than they are.

We continuously work on the system in order to provide the full compatibility with operative systems update, drivers and devices but not always the issues come from our side.

Well, then please, listen to customers and finally update the SkySafari driver (try slewing to M2) and provide full LX200 support. Then these "issues" might just disappear.

BTW, I highly recommend you to add a built-in external antenna to the new StarGO Plus. All other suppliers of mini-computer/controller learned this the hard way and replaced or upgraded their Raspberry Pi's with a stronger and more stable WiFi based on an external antenna. Check out TheSky Fusion, StellarMate Pro, PrimaLuce, all mini PCs, ASIAIR Plus/mini, ... they all decided to go for the better WiFi interface. I do not even consider using the StarGO2's WiFi hotspot, because it is so weak and unreliable. This is not your fault, it is inherent to the Raspberry Pi4. I only use the Ethernet connection.

I am still using the StarGO2 Pro with my Mac and the ASIAIR (only for imaging, no guiding possible!), but I also need to use a separate instance of PHD2 or EKOS. I do not use the VNC-based interface, because it either has issues with the GUI or the font is so small, that it is very hard to read.

Looking at your excellent hardware, I am surprised about the compromised you chose for the new StarGO Plus mini-computers.

Again, I appreciate that you are participating in this thread. I sincerely hope, that you will open up to all established standards to allow better access to your mount.

Potential new clients would also appreciate more insight on the encoder discussion and the actual difference between all your new and classical mounts. A little table and some selected user feedback/reviews at the right place might do some wonders ;-)
[ I cannot comment on the encoder questions, since my mount does not have any. ]

Edited by Obs30, 23 May 2023 - 12:24 AM.

[Avalon-instruments]

Hi Mike

We are going to answer to your questions step by step:

1.  The increased payload capability of the M-due compared to the M-uno comes from increased mount overall dimensions and from bigger internal components as:

- bigger RA and DEC axis

- larger and higher main belt
- bigger ball bearings
- dual tensioner for each axis

 

The above listed improvements provide a more rigid behaviour and a better tracking

 

2.  The M-due comes equipped with 200 Steps motors but it may support the HQ 400 steps motors as well. Please note that with the HQ motors the max slew speed will be reduced of about 30/40% (when used with the StarGo GoTo Control System).

 

3a.  The Encoders used in the M-due allow a better pointing accuracy and retain the position also in case of system power off and allow to maintain a very low P.E. but are not sub arc/sec. so cannot be used for long exposure unguided imaging.
That’s why we suggest to use the Pulse Guiding that is able to correct not only the P.E. but also all the other kind of errors (mirror flop, temperature mechanical movement, focuser flexure, poor Polar Alignment, refraction etc.) that cannot be corrected from the sub arc/sec. absolute encoder only (unless using a pointing model … but this is another story).

 

3b. In case of few seconds missing pulse guide, the system automatically enable the Encoders, keeping the guide star within the guiding camera field.

 

At the moment it is available on pricelist the M-DUE - StarGo Plus (No Encoder) - PRODUCT CODE: AV-1MDU003 but it is possible to order a M-due with StarGo GoTo Control System by simply contact us directly via e-mail and it will be already provided with it’s own mount configuration file.

 

NOTE: The StarGo Plus and the StarGo2 Pro comes with more powerful motor drivers compared to the StarGo GoTo Control System, this means that the same motor can be more resolute (up to 128 micro steps) and can slew at higher speed up to 10 deg. / secs on depending on the micro steps resolution settings. That means that it is possible to have a very high resolution for micro step also with the 200 steps motors.

 

We are available for any further details regarding your questions.

 

In the next reply we are going to clarify also the questions arised by Obs30 regarding the StarGo2 software.

[Mike7Mak]

Hi Mike

We are going to answer to your questions step by step:

We are available for any further details regarding your questions.

 

In the next reply we are going to clarify also the questions arised by Obs30 regarding the StarGo2 software.

Thank you for that detailed reply, it was very helpful and has given me much to think about. I look forward to reading your reply to Obs30 concerning the StarGo2 software.
 

[cgranwehr]

Thank you for that detailed reply, it was very helpful and has given me much to think about. I look forward to reading your reply to Obs30 concerning the StarGo2 software.

[cgranwehr]

Hello everyone on that interesting post about the m-due. Also greatings to Stefano from Avalon who helped me with my m-due. I learned new aspects on my mount and hope to write a review about it this summer. Waiting for clear skies since 6 months here in Switzerland.

[Obs30]

Waiting for clear skies since 6 months here in Switzerland.

Tell me about it!

Indeed. Stefano and Luciano are always very helpful and reply quickly, when I had any hardware questions or needed support with my M-Uno mount.

Edited by Obs30, 23 May 2023 - 12:33 PM.

[Avalon-instruments]

Dear OBS 30

 

This reply is mainly focused on the StarGo2 Pro software.

 

When we say that the StarGo2 Pro can works with all INDI/ASCOM Alpaca devices and system, we mean that we have tested it with Windows, Linux, Ubuntu, Mac Os and Raspberry PI, connected via INDI driver and ASCOM Alpaca (where available) using the following softwares: Kstar, Carte du Ciel, CCD ciel, Stellarium, PHD2 guiding and NINA (and others) and the tests has been performed on both the mount and the focuser driver and we dind’t find any connection issue as shown and explained in the StarGo2 User Manual.

 

We know that there are still some connection issues with few other systems but considering that all the above test are ok, we think that this can be enough in order to consider the StarGo2 Pro/Plus as a “All in one Astrophotography system”.

 

In case someone find some problems with the above softwares or operative system or platform, please let us know about.

 

Since the internal GoTo system is strictly connected to it’s INDI driver, we blocked the standard Raspberry PI system update to avoid internal Operative System corruption.

 

So it will be our care to release the future system update as soon as we will test it, to be sure that everything works in the proper way.

 

Moreover we are still working on the SkySafari/LX200 protocol, so, as we found a solution it will be surely fixed in one of the next update.

 

Anyway, we inform that a new release with the latest LINUX/INDI/EKOS/Kstars version will be soon released.

 

We are aware that the Raspberry PI native WiFi is not so powerful but this connection should be used for the mount/system setting and device checking and/or when the user is very close to the setup, while, during astrophotography session, that requires a stable connection with several devices, it is strongly suggested to use the network cable connection.

[psandelle]

Whelp, can't ask for a more focused reply than that! I've always enjoyed my Avalon mounts and find the designs that are put forth from the company innovative and well thought-out. This looks like another thing they're thinking long and hard about and not just "throwing things against a wall and seeing what sticks". Looking forward to seeing them out in the wild.

 

Paul

[Obs30]

…

 

When we say that the StarGo2 Pro can works with all INDI/ASCOM Alpaca devices and system, we mean that we have tested it with Windows, Linux, Ubuntu, Mac Os and Raspberry PI, connected via INDI driver and ASCOM Alpaca (where available) using the following softwares: Kstar, Carte du Ciel, CCD ciel, Stellarium, PHD2 guiding and NINA (and others) and the tests has been performed on both the mount and the focuser driver and we dind’t find any connection issue as shown and explained in the StarGo2 User Manual.

 

…

 

Moreover we are still working on the SkySafari/LX200 protocol, so, as we found a solution it will be surely fixed in one of the next update.

 

Anyway, we inform that a new release with the latest LINUX/INDI/EKOS/Kstars version will be soon released.

 

We are aware that the Raspberry PI native WiFi is not so powerful but this connection should be used for the mount/system setting and device checking and/or when the user is very close to the setup, while, during astrophotography session, that requires a stable connection with several devices, it is strongly suggested to use the network cable connection.

 

Thank you for replying on CN! This is very much appreciated.

 

I am looking forward to the update to the LX200 compatibility! This is excellent news. Thank you!

 

Maybe you could post a similar announcement on your forum.

 

I have a semi-portable set-up with my primary imaging location not having a clear view of Polaris. So I heavily rely on the Polar Alignment Assistant (PAA) of KStars/EKOS, which has made tremendous progress in the last twelve months. I love it! Last night (finally clear sky after 4 months :-)) it took me only a few minutes to get the polar alignment down to a few arcsecs. This is of course also thanks to your excellent hardware!  Your upcoming update of INDILIB and KStars on the on-board computer is hence very welcome!

 

Yes, KStars/EKOS and CdC, CCDciel, … they all work well, because they are based on the same INDI environment. For a semi-portable set-up, though, the ASIAIR is a 1000 times more convenient.

 

As for the WiFi, indeed one can “only” use it during set-up. For a reliable astrophotography session, the Ethernet cable is a must. I am still surprised, that you did not opt for an external antenna in a Raspberry-Pi4-run system released in the year 2023.

 

My offer still stands, I am open for beta-testing the new drivers and updates to the StarGO2 Pro. Please, let me know. You have my e-mail 

Edited by Obs30, 27 May 2023 - 04:03 AM.