Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Royal Astro R-63 restoration thread

  • Please log in to reply
60 replies to this topic

#26 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 10 September 2021 - 10:17 AM

My next concern is the condition of the white paint on the tube and the finder. As already mentioned, I would love to keep it in the original, but the more I look at it, the more clearly I see that it will not be possible. The surface resembles Swiss cheese - it is full of holes, including large cavities that cannot be masked satisfactorily with the use of brush dotting. What's worse, someone has already tried it, staining the varnish with an unknown type of paint, which does not come off under the influence of solvents that I have tried so far. Finally, the worst - the surface viewed enlarged gives the impression that it was painted with a brush, which raises the suspicion that the varnish is not original.

 

For the finder finder: the varnish is in a tragic state and not suitable for touch-ups. This is due to my favorite procedure known as "protective adhesive tape on the finder" which is supposed to protect the finder varnish from traces of screws. The effect is always the same - damage to the varnish, at best yellowing, and worse, degradation of its structure in contact with adhesives, and breaking it with the tape, as was the case here.

 

What remains? How do you think? I am afraid that I will be painting ...

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20210909_202352.jpg
  • 20210909_202404.jpg
  • 20210909_235049.jpg

  • Bomber Bob and mikerepp like this

#27 Bill Friend

Bill Friend

    Mariner 2

  • *****
  • Posts: 224
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2012
  • Loc: Maine

Posted 10 September 2021 - 11:56 AM

Wet sand with 400grit and progress with 600 then 800?   



#28 Kasmos

Kasmos

    Skylab

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,106
  • Joined: 19 Aug 2015
  • Loc: So Cal

Posted 10 September 2021 - 12:53 PM

I understand that you are a preservationist but sometimes the only good option is to completely repaint stuff.



#29 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 10 September 2021 - 01:13 PM

Yew - I am :-) Sending is not a problem. The problem is rather the decision whether to fight to preserve the old paintwork or not - but there is no point in insisting I think.

 

The black elements are different - they are in better condition and most of them can be retouched. Maybe apart from the dew shield - someone has already tried to touch it up with a permanent black marker... In addition it is bent on the edge, which may require filling and grinding.


  • Bill Friend likes this

#30 Bill Friend

Bill Friend

    Mariner 2

  • *****
  • Posts: 224
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2012
  • Loc: Maine

Posted 10 September 2021 - 01:24 PM

I feel the same way, preserve what you can.  I was thinking wet sanding (with progressive grit) followed by a sandable grey primer to help fill in whatever's left.  Then fresh white paint


Edited by Bill Friend, 10 September 2021 - 01:30 PM.

  • LukaszLu likes this

#31 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 10 September 2021 - 07:50 PM

Well, and now the 100-points question! Many parts are covered with strange dirt that looks like dried grease. It is yellowish and translucent to certain extend. But it cannot be cleaned with anything. Isopropanol, oils, white spirit, detergents - nothing dissolves it. Not even the tiniest yellow marks are left on the cottonball. WHAT IS THIS?

 

20210911_004457.jpg

20210911_004515(0).jpg

20210911_004523.jpg

The only effective method I found was with polishing agents for aluminum, chrome and stainless steel. But I can't clean painted parts in this way, let alone optics. It seems that even the lens of the finder eyepiece is covered with the same dirt. It is partly because of this dirt that I decided to replace the focuser knobs. It's a real nightmare - I've never experienced anything like this before! But maybe there is someone who has come across this and found the right cleaner? You can see this yellowish layer on the edges of the bolt head:

 

20210911_020154(0).jpg

Fortunately, the dirt did not reach the finder lens, which was nicely cleaned.

 

20210910_235540.jpg

20210910_235944(0).jpg

20210911_004334.jpg


Edited by LukaszLu, 10 September 2021 - 07:51 PM.

  • Bomber Bob and mikerepp like this

#32 aoirotukiko

aoirotukiko

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 02 Nov 2019
  • Loc: Japan

Posted 10 September 2021 - 08:06 PM

Hello. 

It is interesting to see the process of repairing R-63.

The R-63 is different from the traditional Japanese astronomical telescopes.

It is interesting to take a closer look at the parts of R-63.

I thought it would be interesting to compare it with the astronomical telescope of Towa Kouki(東和光器).

The Royal Astronomical Telescope R-63 was released in the first half of 1960.

The advertisement was published in the June 1960 issue of the magazine "Children's Science"「子供の科学」.

The inventor of this equatorial mount is Tadashige Ichihara(市原忠重).

Ichihara was an early engineer at Astro Optical Industry Co., Ltd.(アストロ光学工業(株))

He worked for Astro Optical Industry Co., Ltd. for a short time.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Royal R-63  供の科 1960.6.jpg

  • Bill Friend, PawPaw, Bomber Bob and 4 others like this

#33 aoirotukiko

aoirotukiko

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 02 Nov 2019
  • Loc: Japan

Posted 10 September 2021 - 08:09 PM

Patent description

 

Reduced the number of parts and simplified the structure.

The rotation of both axes can be freely stopped by the braking pin.

The inventor is Tadashige Ichihara (市原忠重).

Attached Thumbnails

  • Royal R-63 Patent.jpg

  • PawPaw, Bomber Bob, mikerepp and 3 others like this

#34 Marc-Andre

Marc-Andre

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,171
  • Joined: 18 Aug 2011
  • Loc: New Hampshire

Posted 10 September 2021 - 09:14 PM

Well, and now the 100-points question! Many parts are covered with strange dirt that looks like dried grease. It is yellowish and translucent to certain extend. But it cannot be cleaned with anything. Isopropanol, oils, white spirit, detergents - nothing dissolves it. Not even the tiniest yellow marks are left on the cottonball. WHAT IS THIS?

I bought a telescope once which was set up for display in the home of two heavy smokers for about 40 years.  The deposits were so thick it sealed the lens cap to the lens cell. Fortunately the focuser was capped and no smoke got to the lens.  The finder and accessories were kept in the box in a closet and never were exposed to the smoke either.  However, the tube, mount, and metal legs were heavily soiled.  I was able to clean and polish all of this including painted surfaces with Gel-Gloss.   I would imagine a quality car polish would work.

 

https://www.gel-glos...gel-gloss-16oz/

 

I learned of it from a hair stylist friend wo used it to clean and remove hair dyes from her shop countertops.


Edited by Marc-Andre, 10 September 2021 - 09:15 PM.

  • astro140 and LukaszLu like this

#35 Kasmos

Kasmos

    Skylab

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,106
  • Joined: 19 Aug 2015
  • Loc: So Cal

Posted 10 September 2021 - 09:39 PM

Well, and now the 100-points question! Many parts are covered with strange dirt that looks like dried grease. It is yellowish and translucent to certain extend. But it cannot be cleaned with anything. Isopropanol, oils, white spirit, detergents - nothing dissolves it. Not even the tiniest yellow marks are left on the cottonball. WHAT IS THIS?

 

Both of my Bushnell Sky Chiefs had OTA boxes that originally had foam rubber pads. They typically deteriorate into tiny little yellow bits that stick to everything including the optics. No one thing really worked that well to remove it from the painted parts, but at least I could rub them. As for the objectives, I soaked them in a 50/50 solution of water and Windex. After about an hour it softened enough to clean them. Another member had something similar on his Carton objective and it worked for him.


Edited by Kasmos, 10 September 2021 - 09:42 PM.

  • astro140, Marc-Andre, Bomber Bob and 1 other like this

#36 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 11 September 2021 - 04:30 AM

Patent description

 

Reduced the number of parts and simplified the structure.

The rotation of both axes can be freely stopped by the braking pin.

The inventor is Tadashige Ichihara (市原忠重).

Thank you, aoirotukiko, for this extremely interesting information confirming, that the mount design was subject to patent protection. This is important information because the idea is a bit controversial - as I mentioned, I like it and it works surprisingly well - but I feel a bit uncomfortable without slow motions controls, and guiding the instrument by maneuvering the tube has its drawbacks. Many people may wonder why this solution has not become popular, and other manufacturers have not tried to introduce it in their own designs. Was it considered unsuccessful? Now we see that the reason could simply be patent law and legal protection of industrial property.



#37 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 11 September 2021 - 04:41 AM

I bought a telescope once which was set up for display in the home of two heavy smokers for about 40 years.

 

Both of my Bushnell Sky Chiefs had OTA boxes that originally had foam rubber pads.

 

Thanks for suggestions! These types of reasons seem unlikely to me, as only some parts are dirty. If the tarnish came from nicotine or the decomposition of some chemical substances, it would cover everything equally. Meanwhile, the eyepiece in the finder is dirty, but not the sleeve and not the objective of the lens. The holder is clean, while the screws holding it are dirty...

 

I'll try hydrogen peroxide, maybe a higher concentration. I also have carbon tetrachloride which should dissolve fats - if it's a grease it might help. There are no cleaning agents in Poland that you mention, but I will also try to look for some similar agents.

 

I wonder if it is not a kind of hard water deposit - but where would it come from?



#38 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 11 September 2021 - 08:05 AM

OK, decision made. I will not avoid painting. I found a white acrylic paint with a nice warm tone, reminiscent of the original (?) shade of white. To justify myself, I show a few photos confirming that the situation was hopeless:

 

20210911_131901.jpg

20210911_131919.jpg

20210911_131934(0).jpg

20210911_131945(0).jpg

20210911_131959.jpg

 

The surfaces are now ready for painting. I used sandpaper with grades 350, 500 and 1000:

 

20210911_144721(0).jpg

20210911_144728.jpg

20210911_144827(0).jpg

20210911_144832.jpg

 

 

 


  • mdowns, Marc-Andre, Bill Friend and 3 others like this

#39 Kasmos

Kasmos

    Skylab

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,106
  • Joined: 19 Aug 2015
  • Loc: So Cal

Posted 11 September 2021 - 01:20 PM

Thanks for suggestions! These types of reasons seem unlikely to me, as only some parts are dirty. If the tarnish came from nicotine or the decomposition of some chemical substances, it would cover everything equally. Meanwhile, the eyepiece in the finder is dirty, but not the sleeve and not the objective of the lens. The holder is clean, while the screws holding it are dirty...

 

I'll try hydrogen peroxide, maybe a higher concentration. I also have carbon tetrachloride which should dissolve fats - if it's a grease it might help. There are no cleaning agents in Poland that you mention, but I will also try to look for some similar agents.

 

I wonder if it is not a kind of hard water deposit - but where would it come from?

Even though it's not foam, I'd try giving them a soaking/bathing. I don't know what kind of residue was on the Carton that the other guy had, but he tried everything including Hydrogen Peroxide and nothing but the Water/Windex mixture soak worked.  Windex is just a glass/window cleaner so I'd think there's a similar product in Poland.


  • LukaszLu likes this

#40 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 12 September 2021 - 07:15 AM

EUREKA! With the information about the Windex agent, you've put me on the right track. I realized that this type of glass cleaner usually contains VINEGAR! I've tried a 10% solution of spirit vinegar and after a short bath the dirt seems to start coming off ... As you can see, the swab finally shows dirt! I did not think that the appearance of dirt can be enjoyable - and yet ... Thanks!

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20210912_140707.jpg

Edited by LukaszLu, 12 September 2021 - 07:19 AM.

  • astro140, Marc-Andre, Bill Friend and 3 others like this

#41 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 12 September 2021 - 07:56 PM

It turned out that the dirt has come off, but partly with the paint. There was nothing else to do but polish the element and paint it anew. I hadn't planned this, but there were traces of brass in the grooved circles after the first spray. I found it very stylish and decided to leave it as it is, especially since the chrome eyepiece sleeve is very worn-out and cannot be made to look "as new". I would like to avoid the blatant contrast of freshly repainted elements with those that remained in the original, sometimes with visible signs of use or a patina.

 

20210912_155950.jpg

20210913_003254(0).jpg

 

 

The finder unexpectedly turned out to be one of the more difficult elements, and its renovation was unsuccessful as expected. I couldn't unscrew the eyepiece. Tried soaking a stuck ring with WD-40, heated it - with no result. I haven't tried the freezer yet.

 

If I ever manage to take it apart, I will probably repaint the matte frame of the lens. Perhaps then there will be an opportunity to consider whether or not to re-chrome the sleeve - although such an immaculate element could look worse than the current, heavily patinated version. It remains to recreate the white fill in "5X" inscription. In the future, I would also like to replace the adjusting screws, or at least one of them that seems to be not original.

 

20210913_025930.jpg

20210913_022231.jpg

20210913_022258(0).jpg


Edited by LukaszLu, 13 September 2021 - 04:34 AM.

  • astro140, Bomber Bob, Piggyback and 1 other like this

#42 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 13 September 2021 - 06:00 AM

Here are the results of my fight to paint the tube, which turned out to be quite a challenge. I have never painted such a large element by spraying. The large surface area makes it very easy to exceed the critical amount of paint at which it starts to flow. On the other hand, a layer that is too thin means that it never merges into a perfectly smooth surface, leaving a grainy, semi-matte structure.

 

20210912_203515(0).jpg

 

Fortunately, my paint skills turned out to be too weak to deal with it. Why "fortunately"? In order to get out of this, I decided to finish the varnish with 1000 paper, then with successive gradations reaching up to 3000, and then polished the varnish with polishing paste for car bodies.

 

20210913_121328.jpg

20210913_121341.jpg

20210913_121354.jpg

 

I am very happy with the result because it is not as perfect as with professional painting, which I was afraid of at first. On the surface you can see micro-scratches remaining after sanding and other smaller imperfections. The effect is very similar to the surface texture of original paintwork on my old specimens from the 1950s or early 1960s. It seems to be an original varnish with years of history behind it - but there are no holes, no damage or abrasions.

 

I think that's what it was about - I hope that the freshly painted elements will not stand out in a glaring way from the rest. The color also turned out to be a perfect match - the warm shade of white corresponds to the original.

 

20210913_124006.jpg

20210913_124106.jpg


Edited by LukaszLu, 13 September 2021 - 06:07 AM.

  • CharlieB, Marc-Andre, Bill Friend and 6 others like this

#43 Bill Friend

Bill Friend

    Mariner 2

  • *****
  • Posts: 224
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2012
  • Loc: Maine

Posted 13 September 2021 - 08:19 AM

Beautiful!!  bow.gif

 

I often end up doing the same thing as my paint skills are lacking. 


  • LukaszLu likes this

#44 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 13 September 2021 - 12:59 PM

Now let me publish a short photographic documentation of the disassembling of the mount. Them mount is simple and so is the task. However, because it is a unique device, it might be advisable to include this documentation for historical and reference purposes.

 

I think that the design is obvious and requires no comment, except for one thing - after unscrewing the three screws that block the movements, you need to remember to remove the 3 brass pins that act as brakes (one of them consists of two parts!). Otherwise, they may slide out unexpectedly and get lost.

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20210913_182256.jpg
  • 20210913_182313.jpg
  • 20210913_182351.jpg
  • 20210913_182510.jpg

Edited by LukaszLu, 14 September 2021 - 09:24 AM.

  • mikerepp likes this

#45 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 13 September 2021 - 01:00 PM

next steps...

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20210913_182518(0).jpg
  • 20210913_182540.jpg
  • 20210913_182601.jpg
  • 20210913_182646(0).jpg


#46 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 13 September 2021 - 01:01 PM

next steps...

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20210913_182730(1).jpg
  • 20210913_182820(0).jpg
  • 20210913_182945.jpg

  • mikerepp likes this

#47 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 13 September 2021 - 01:02 PM

and the final steps:

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20210913_183031(0).jpg
  • 20210913_183313.jpg
  • 20210913_183416.jpg

  • mikerepp likes this

#48 Kasmos

Kasmos

    Skylab

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,106
  • Joined: 19 Aug 2015
  • Loc: So Cal

Posted 13 September 2021 - 01:44 PM

Here are the results of my fight to paint the tube, which turned out to be quite a challenge. I have never painted such a large element by spraying. The large surface area makes it very easy to exceed the critical amount of paint at which it starts to flow. On the other hand, a layer that is too thin means that it never merges into a perfectly smooth surface, leaving a grainy, semi-matte structure.

 

attachicon.gif20210912_203515(0).jpg

 

Fortunately, my paint skills turned out to be too weak to deal with it. Why "fortunately"? In order to get out of this, I decided to finish the varnish with 1000 paper, then with successive gradations reaching up to 3000, and then polished the varnish with polishing paste for car bodies.

 

attachicon.gif20210913_121328.jpg

attachicon.gif20210913_121341.jpg

attachicon.gif20210913_121354.jpg

 

I am very happy with the result because it is not as perfect as with professional painting, which I was afraid of at first. On the surface you can see micro-scratches remaining after sanding and other smaller imperfections. The effect is very similar to the surface texture of original paintwork on my old specimens from the 1950s or early 1960s. It seems to be an original varnish with years of history behind it - but there are no holes, no damage or abrasions.

 

I think that's what it was about - I hope that the freshly painted elements will not stand out in a glaring way from the rest. The color also turned out to be a perfect match - the warm shade of white corresponds to the original.

 

attachicon.gif20210913_124006.jpg

attachicon.gif20210913_124106.jpg

The challenges you went through is one reason a complete repaint is a last resort for me. It's a lot of work and it's always questionable if I'll be happy with the results. That said, it looks very good and I wouldn't worry too much about any glaring differences in the finish of the components. From seeing your prior restorations I'm sure it will end up being quite nice. Many of us are our own worst critics and sometimes just too close to it. With time you'll probably be even more accepting of any lingering concerns. waytogo.gif


  • Bill Friend and LukaszLu like this

#49 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 13 September 2021 - 02:02 PM

Thanks for the moral support :-) You know how it is - on the one hand, it's fun to face new challenges and learn new things. On the other hand, man constantly resents to himself that he is incompetent in so many areas that it would be good to be mastered to do such a job ... So there is always the fear that I will get stuck somewhere halfway, falling over some unexpected problem.

 

For now, everything seems to be going in the right direction. I am very curious how the mount will behave after changing the grease. I will grease it with high-quality silicone grease, which should make axis rotation even easier and possibly eliminate the "jump" effect that occurs when accurately positioning an object in the center of the field of view. But will the patent with blocking the tube position work with such a lighter grease?

 

I still have no idea how to paint wood, I will also have to straighten a bent dew-shield, which will probably end with painting it. And here is another unknown - I have never figured out how to paint the inside of dew-shield and tubes. Where to get such a deep matte paint ...?


Edited by LukaszLu, 13 September 2021 - 02:03 PM.


#50 LukaszLu

LukaszLu

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 690
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2020
  • Loc: Poland

Posted 14 September 2021 - 04:37 AM

@Kasmos, there's one important lesson from my painting of the tube: it is also possible to spray the varnish locally or in spots, and then sand it so that it forms one smooth surface with the old varnish surrounding it. After that, such a place can be sanded and polished - even with a car body polish - and there will be no trace of the meeting between the old and new paint, and the new paint will be indistinguishable from the original surface, provided that the color is properly selected. However, even slight differences in shade are not particularly noticeable because when spraying, one color changes smoothly into another.  I did an experiment on a spare, experimental tube - the effect is excellent, you cannot see that something was corrected at all.

 

I think it will be of interest to all those who prefer to avoid full painting. Such local corrections are much easier, and the technology of sanding and polishing makes them relatively safe and reliable.


Edited by LukaszLu, 14 September 2021 - 04:38 AM.

  • Marc-Andre and Bill Friend like this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics