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Night vision and premium telescopes

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#1 Jethro7

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Posted 12 September 2021 - 05:10 PM

Hello Cners,

Is there any real benefit using a Night Vision device in conjunction with a premium refractor such as a Takahashi TSA 120 or a TEC 140 ED?

 

HAPPY SKIES TO ALL AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro


Edited by Jethro7, 12 September 2021 - 05:11 PM.


#2 stnagy

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Posted 12 September 2021 - 08:40 PM

No, I don’t think so. But I do enjoy it for those times I want to observe the old fashioned way :) 


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#3 Mazerski

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Posted 12 September 2021 - 09:38 PM

Jethro,

 

Send bobhen a note as I believe his favorite scope may be the TSA 120 w/ NV. He always speaks highly of it.



#4 Jethro7

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Posted 12 September 2021 - 10:59 PM

Jethro,

 

Send bobhen a note as I believe his favorite scope may be the TSA 120 w/ NV. He always speaks highly of it.

Thanks Mazerski,

 

HAPPY SKIES AND GOOD STAR HUNTING Jethro


Edited by Jethro7, 12 September 2021 - 11:02 PM.


#5 Jethro7

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Posted 12 September 2021 - 11:02 PM

No, I don’t think so. But I do enjoy it for those times I want to observe the old fashioned way smile.gif

Hello Stnagy,

I was wondering about this. Premium refractors will and do make a difference for conventional viewing, no doubt.  

 

HAPPY SKIES TO YOU AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro



#6 Joko

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 01:37 AM

Hello Stnagy,

I was wondering about this. Premium refractors will and do make a difference for conventional viewing, no doubt.  

 

HAPPY SKIES TO YOU AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro

Same results with my tests based on 2 refractors. Low cost Bresser 6" F/4 and high price Takahashi FC-100.

Not the same aperture, but the Takahashi was by far the best with NV device.

Then i also observed this summer with other top quality refractors and the view was always beautiful.

 

My conclusion is premium refractors will make a difference with NV.

And by premium i mean apochormatic doublet or triplet.


Edited by Joko, 13 September 2021 - 07:13 AM.

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#7 Jethro7

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 06:08 AM

 

 

My conclusion is premium refractors will make a difference with NV.

And by premium i mean apochormatic doublet or triplet.

Hello Joko,

thank you for the response, I was just wondering if a premium Telescope made some sort of a appreciable difference, I know one of these premium APO's makes a solid difference in conventional viewing. I am about half way with my Astro Toy savings account towards acquiring a Takahashi TSA 120. NVA comprises about 75% of my Astro endeavours these nights. I had thought about selling a few of my scopes but may hang on to them until I get the Takahashi TSA 120 in hand.  

 

HAPPY SKIES AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro


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#8 GOLGO13

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 08:08 AM

My understanding is heavy filtering is needed for achromats. I can say the 6 inch F5 I have seems to work well.

#9 Jethro7

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 11:13 AM

My understanding is heavy filtering is needed for achromats. I can say the 6 inch F5 I have seems to work well.

Hello GOLGO13,

I received a very straight forward answer PMed from Bobhen, recommended  by Mazerski, 

Bob's response was " for a general use do it all refractor for conventional, solar, Lunar, planetary and deep sky observing and imaging ( A Takahashi TSA 120) is one of, if not the best, 120mm refractors on the market' and will also absolutely thrill you for night vision use as well"

 

" If you are considering a TSA 120 for "ONLY" night vision use, I would Sugest considering saving a lot of money and consider one of the 120 F5 or 120 F8 refractors on the market"

 

This pretty much answered my question. I  have basically the same set up Bob, uses for Night Vision Astronomy. With a AT 102ED with reducer, AT60 ED, Altair Starwave 152 F/5.9  and a C8 Edge HD. Mounted on a Losmandy AZ8 mount. I have absolutly no complaints with this set up for Night vision Astronomy and conventional viewing. This set up has certainly kept me delightfully  entertained for the past year or so. But it may be a good time to think about the future and  limit " Choke up.."bawling.gif  my Astro toys to two or three scopes that can do it all and a Takahashi TSA120 could certainly be a answer for the do it all refractor. 

 

HAPPY SKIES AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro

This is pretty much my NVA set up.

20210412 194544
20210718 000141

 


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#10 GOLGO13

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 11:32 AM

I’d love a Tak 120 also! Gonna have to wait a bit. I keep going back and forth between a 5 inch refractor and something like a Mewlon 180. Or just sticking with what I have.

#11 Jethro7

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 07:23 PM

I’d love a Tak 120 also! Gonna have to wait a bit. I keep going back and forth between a 5 inch refractor and something like a Mewlon 180. Or just sticking with what I have.

Hello GOLGO13,

I can relate to the quandary . For night Vision Astronomy my Starwave 152 F/5.9 works like gangbusters but the views are very similar to what I see through the C8 Edge HD. I am thinking about starting to scale back on my Astro Toys. If the TAK 120 works like I am hoping, I probably need to find new homes for most of my Astro toys.These thoughts are still in Flux, it could take as long as 12 to16 months to receive a new TAK. I am also looking for a used TAK 120 in certain preowned channels. I have aquired too many scopes and mounts. I use four scopes and two mounts pretty much exclusively, do to the fact that after acquiring a night vision device, that has been a total game changer, both in greatly, no exponentially expanding what I am able to view and the choices of equipment that I use to accomplish the task. Hard decisions my friend. Life is short. You cant take money with you when you go, so you might as well spend it on Astro toys that you can enjoy now.

 

HAPPY SKIES TO YOU AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro


Edited by Jethro7, 13 September 2021 - 07:26 PM.

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#12 astrophile

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 08:14 PM

I thought the faster optics the better for NV devices? ...In which case the TSA's f/7.5 or the TEC's f/7 puts them at a disadvantage compared to many other options?  (I've only ever used a loaner Gen3 I3 in a 12.5" f/6 dob... spectacular on compact objects)



#13 GOLGO13

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 08:23 PM

I thought the faster optics the better for NV devices? ...In which case the TSA's f/7.5 or the TEC's f/7 puts them at a disadvantage compared to many other options?  (I've only ever used a loaner Gen3 I3 in a 12.5" f/6 dob... spectacular on compact objects)

I would agree with this assumption, especially for nebulas. My opinion is shoot for F5 and lower for night vision. However, with the 67mm televue afocal, an F7 scope can still work pretty good for NV as it gets down to around F3. However, I still think F5 would be better if possible. Also depends a bit on the magnification you are going for. So an 80mm F5 will be very low power. As opposed to my 10 inch F4.7 which is a bit more zoomed in even with the 67mm. However, the good thing about the 10 inch F4.7 is it still does well at higher powers using other eyepieces or prime focus if you have it.



#14 stnagy

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 08:41 PM

I thought the faster optics the better for NV devices? ...In which case the TSA's f/7.5 or the TEC's f/7 puts them at a disadvantage compared to many other options?  (I've only ever used a loaner Gen3 I3 in a 12.5" f/6 dob... spectacular on compact objects)

For nebulas, I use the Antares 0.7x reducer (as does bobhen I believe), which takes the f-ratio on the TSA-120 down to about F5.25. With the TV 67 plossl it gets down to about F2.6.

 

Edit: I should mention the Antares 0.7x reducer has a working distance (?) of 66mm, but if placed further from the the eyepiece or NVD photocathode (if using prime focus) it is possible to obtain an even greater reduction so long as the scope has enough inward focus. 


Edited by stnagy, 14 September 2021 - 06:33 AM.

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#15 rexowner

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 09:23 PM

Not sure I understand the question.  NV requirements are quite variable depending on what one

is doing.

 

E.g one might think if one were observing in a narrow band e.g HA 6nm , a "premium" wouldn't make much

difference as long as the telescope was focused in that band.

 

General observing over a wide band could be different.

 

So good answers could vary quite a bit.



#16 GOLGO13

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 09:57 PM

Biggest issue with achromats and night vision is unfiltered there is star bloat. So using strong filtering helps. I'd assume that wouldn't be an issue with an Apo. But not a ton of fast Apos generally. There are some though. Of course not cheap.
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#17 rexowner

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 10:14 PM

Biggest issue with achromats and night vision is unfiltered there is star bloat. So using strong filtering helps. I'd assume that wouldn't be an issue with an Apo. But not a ton of fast Apos generally. There are some though. Of course not cheap.

Maybe we're saying something similar from a different angle.  (Apos aren't cheap, but NV's not cheap either)wink.gif

 

 

My understanding is heavy filtering is needed for achromats...

 

 

A relatively common NV activity is narrow band observation, which is by definition, heavily 

filtered.  And that's a valid NV observation, and that's OK. This is what I personally use

NV for for the most part.  AFAIK, narrowband won't benefit greatly from a premium refractor.

 

Still thinking this through, but part of the issue is "NV" is widely (bad pun, I guess) defined.

AFAIK, when I use my PVS-14 unfiltered, "star bloat" is common only because of

*brightness* -- AFAIK, nothing to do with premium optics.  Might be different with

a different setup - hence my confusion as "NV" covers a broad spectrum (another

bad pun).


Edited by rexowner, 13 September 2021 - 10:16 PM.

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#18 GOLGO13

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 10:49 PM

Here is a good amount of discussion and links to more discussion on the topic.

https://www.cloudyni...t-for-doing-nv/

#19 BJS

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Posted 15 September 2021 - 08:32 AM

I thought the faster optics the better for NV devices? ...In which case the TSA's f/7.5 or the TEC's f/7 puts them at a disadvantage compared to many other options?  (I've only ever used a loaner Gen3 I3 in a 12.5" f/6 dob... spectacular on compact objects)

Fast is important for extended objects like nebula....point sources like clusters don't need the fast f/ratio.  The magic happens when you can combine fast with aperture.  And by fast i mean below f2.  But remember that the NV amplifies ALL light so the good and the bad.  


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#20 a__l

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Posted 15 September 2021 - 07:14 PM

Fast is important for extended objects like nebula....point sources like clusters don't need the fast f/ratio.  The magic happens when you can combine fast with aperture.  And by fast i mean below f2.  But remember that the NV amplifies ALL light so the good and the bad.  

This is a misinterpretation that interprets NV as the use of the eye in astronomical observations.
astrophile is right, this is the general principle of photo devices by which NV works.

Bad light can be limited by using appropriate broadband filters.


Edited by a__l, 15 September 2021 - 07:17 PM.


#21 Jethro7

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Posted 16 September 2021 - 06:29 PM

For nebulas, I use the Antares 0.7x reducer (as does bobhen I believe), which takes the f-ratio on the TSA-120 down to about F5.25. With the TV 67 plossl it gets down to about F2.6.

 

Edit: I should mention the Antares 0.7x reducer has a working distance (?) of 66mm, but if placed further from the the eyepiece or NVD photocathode (if using prime focus) it is possible to obtain an even greater reduction so long as the scope has enough inward focus. 

Hello stnagy,

Thank you, this is interesting.

HAPPY SKIES TONYOU AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro



#22 Mazerski

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Posted 16 September 2021 - 09:38 PM

Jethro,

 

If this helps, I use the 2" Antares 0.7x and 0.5x reducers with the 2" ScopeStuff adapter in a f/4.5 NewMoon Dob and both focus; true for the Mod3 and PVS7. I don't know the actual focal ratio reduction but it doesn't matter as the emission nebulas I can view are brighter and smaller as I reduce down. I also use this configuration for M81 / 82, the Leo Triple and the Double Cluster (and maybe other DSOs) as they look better to me all nicely framed in the FOV.

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#23 a__l

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Posted 16 September 2021 - 10:48 PM

This is probably not the best option in terms of image quality. Especially 0.5x.
Better to use prime focus and the next option is afocal with TV67.


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#24 GOLGO13

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 06:23 AM

The .7 Antares reducer works very well. I have a GSO .5 reducer that doesn't work well at all. So for prime I consider .7 to be the best option and I switch to Afocal if I want further reduction. But I also use prime without reduction and that can be beneficial.

#25 Jethro7

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 06:50 PM

Jethro,

 

If this helps, I use the 2" Antares 0.7x and 0.5x reducers with the 2" ScopeStuff adapter in a f/4.5 NewMoon Dob and both focus; true for the Mod3 and PVS7. I don't know the actual focal ratio reduction but it doesn't matter as the emission nebulas I can view are brighter and smaller as I reduce down. I also use this configuration for M81 / 82, the Leo Triple and the Double Cluster (and maybe other DSOs) as they look better to me all nicely framed in the FOV.

Hello Mazerski,

The Anteries 0.7 reducer is a go but the Scopestuff  adapter is a no go for a PVS14, I guess it was made for the Micro NVD with the Anvis lens installed, I have all ready tried the adapter. 

 

HAPPY SKIES AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro




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