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Paramount MX+ redo PEC training ?

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#1 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 06:13 AM

I have a Paramount MX+.  I regreased it recently and adjusted the plungers. I also had to change the Mount->PC USB cable through the mount.

 

Now when I guide, I get an oscillating RA trace (see attached screen shot). The oscillations are about once every 3.85 minutes which is about the same period as the worm rotation at 3.875minutes.

 

My conclusions:
I doubt this time period is a co-incidence
I have done the plunger adjustment many times before and it went as per usual, I don’t think they are maladjusted
So, I need to retrain the PEC
I can’t see it being anything to do with cable snag.

 

If we weren’t having such rubbish weather in the UK I would simply ‘get on” and retrain. But it’s going to be a week or so before I can, so I would be interested to hear any views on my logic (above) and why I would need to retrain after a regrease / plunger adjustment ?

 

Screenshot 2021-09-17 at 11.14.38.jpg

 

Thank you



#2 Sacred Heart

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 06:59 AM

Have you posted this on Software Bisque forum.  Someone usually answers by the next day, usually in a few hours of posting.   Joe



#3 alphatripleplus

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 07:00 AM

You mention the screenshot is the trace with guiding turned on - What does the curve look like with guiding turned off? That would be the "true" PEC curve.



#4 Sacred Heart

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 07:00 AM

I'm sorry, I forgot the link.  Joe

 

https://www.bisque.com/support/



#5 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 02:11 PM

You mention the screenshot is the trace with guiding turned on - What does the curve look like with guiding turned off? That would be the "true" PEC curve.

I should have said, it's a trace from PHD2, i.e. not a PEC curve.  I have a a PEC curve loaded into the mount.  Seems to me this guiding curve shows what movements are needed to keep the mount "on track".  It sort of feels like there isn't a PEC curve loaded, but there is !!



#6 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 02:33 PM

I'm sorry, I forgot the link.  Joe

 

https://www.bisque.com/support/

Thanks Joe

 

I had already posted this on the SB forum.  The moderator is a really helpful guy, but I'm not convinced that many Paramount users track the forum.  I don't find the forum very user friendly and (personally) I'm not a fan of SB support.

 

It just seems strange that PEC should suddenly be out after a regrease and I don't believe it is a cable bind.

 

I am not so much looking for a solution (more a discussion my conclusions), becaue I (think) know my 1st step is to redo the PEC training..... when I get a clear sky !!!



#7 Sacred Heart

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 03:03 PM

Thanks Joe

 

I had already posted this on the SB forum.  The moderator is a really helpful guy, but I'm not convinced that many Paramount users track the forum.  I don't find the forum very user friendly and (personally) I'm not a fan of SB support.

 

It just seems strange that PEC should suddenly be out after a regrease and I don't believe it is a cable bind.

 

I am not so much looking for a solution (more a discussion my conclusions), becaue I (think) know my 1st step is to redo the PEC training..... when I get a clear sky !!!

 

 

Thanks Joe

 

I had already posted this on the SB forum.  The moderator is a really helpful guy, but I'm not convinced that many Paramount users track the forum.  I don't find the forum very user friendly and (personally) I'm not a fan of SB support.

 

It just seems strange that PEC should suddenly be out after a regrease and I don't believe it is a cable bind.

 

I am not so much looking for a solution (more a discussion my conclusions), becaue I (think) know my 1st step is to redo the PEC training..... when I get a clear sky !!!

I agree, they may not be the friendliest bunch,  but atleast on my end, they have been knowledgeable and helpful. They bailed me out a few times with my ME.    Hopefully it is something cheap and easy.   If it is redoing PEC that ain't bad.

 

Good luck,   Joe



#8 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 03:33 PM

I agree, they may not be the friendliest bunch,  but atleast on my end, they have been knowledgeable and helpful. They bailed me out a few times with my ME.    Hopefully it is something cheap and easy.   If it is redoing PEC that ain't bad.

 

Good luck,   Joe

Thanks Joe, I am confident (hopeful!!) that its just PEC retraining, I'm just curious as to why its necessary.



#9 Sacred Heart

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 08:52 PM

II just watched a video of a lady running cables through the MX,  no way what she did should impact your PEC.  Regreasing should not impact PEC provided you did not remove the worm wheel or some how cover a sensor with grease.    It will be interesting to know what the fix is and why the fix was needed.     Joe



#10 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 18 September 2021 - 12:14 AM

II just watched a video of a lady running cables through the MX,  no way what she did should impact your PEC.  Regreasing should not impact PEC provided you did not remove the worm wheel or some how cover a sensor with grease.    It will be interesting to know what the fix is and why the fix was needed.     Joe

Now I'm worried !!!  I'm going to open up again to check for grease on the sensor.

 

EDIT:  Checked SB forum and it won't 'home' if the sensor is blocked with grease.  My mount finds home just fine, so it looks like I'm back to PEC retraining.  Forecast is cloudy for next week at least !!!!!


Edited by SgtErnestBilko, 18 September 2021 - 12:42 AM.


#11 Sacred Heart

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Posted 18 September 2021 - 03:23 AM

 SgtErnestBilko,    You said you adjusted the plungers.   The plungers on the worm wheel in RA and Dec???  If I am thinking right, you did something to change the load pressure on the worm to gear.   I would double check to make sure proper procedure was followed.    This to me is why you have to redo PEC, you altered pressure / tension worm to gear. 

 

Go back to SB support forum,  ME section

 

Forums › Paramount Forums › Paramount ME › Long-time out of use Paramount ME

 

click on the document,    is that what you did???

 

Is this the document you followed??

 

Paramount ME II/MX/MX+/MYT GEM and Taurus 400/500/600 Equatorial Fork Mount Worm Block Adjustments



#12 alphatripleplus

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Posted 18 September 2021 - 07:33 AM

Curious to see what it looks like after retraining the PEC.



#13 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 21 September 2021 - 02:25 AM

 SgtErnestBilko,    You said you adjusted the plungers.   The plungers on the worm wheel in RA and Dec???  If I am thinking right, you did something to change the load pressure on the worm to gear.   I would double check to make sure proper procedure was followed.    This to me is why you have to redo PEC, you altered pressure / tension worm to gear. 

 

Go back to SB support forum,  ME section

 

Forums › Paramount Forums › Paramount ME › Long-time out of use Paramount ME

 

click on the document,    is that what you did???

 

Is this the document you followed??

 

Paramount ME II/MX/MX+/MYT GEM and Taurus 400/500/600 Equatorial Fork Mount Worm Block Adjustments

Thank you.  I followed SB documentation "to the letter".  SB Youtube videos 'Paramount MX Through the Mount Cable' & "Paramount ME II, MX, MX+ and MYT Lubrication Instructions' as well as documentation 'Paramount Cam Stop and Spring Plunger Adjustment Instructions'.

I have since remembered that before lubrication I re-routed a cable on my pier which involved a partial dismantle.  I am going to remove the MX+ this morning to see whether that knocked the pier top out of level.  Even if it is out of level, I don’t see how that could produce the ‘guiding sine wave’ in my original post, but it needs to be checked regardless.

I’m also going to drift polar align (PHD2) before I redo the PEC with PEMPro.



#14 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 21 September 2021 - 02:37 AM

Curious to see what it looks like after retraining the PEC.

me too !!



#15 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 21 September 2021 - 03:29 AM

Thank you.  I followed SB documentation "to the letter".  SB Youtube videos 'Paramount MX Through the Mount Cable' & "Paramount ME II, MX, MX+ and MYT Lubrication Instructions' as well as documentation 'Paramount Cam Stop and Spring Plunger Adjustment Instructions'.

I have since remembered that before lubrication I re-routed a cable on my pier which involved a partial dismantle.  I am going to remove the MX+ this morning to see whether that knocked the pier top out of level.  Even if it is out of level, I don’t see how that could produce the ‘guiding sine wave’ in my original post, but it needs to be checked regardless.

I’m also going to drift polar align (PHD2) before I redo the PEC with PEMPro.

I don't think it is a 'base out of level' issue.  One corner was 0.1 degree out of level.  I am interested to know what has caused my sine wave guiding so tomorrow (hopefully clouds permitting) I am going to do a quick guide 1st to check if it was the base.  Then I'm going to guide again after polar alignment.  Finally I will guide after PEC training.



#16 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 03:58 AM

So I re-leveled my pier (it was only 0.1 of a degree out in one corner).

 

I used PHD2 to drift polar align and got the errors down to AZ:  7.2 arc secs and ALT: 9 arc secs.  TSX described my previous 13 arc secs as excellent.  So, I left it there especially as seeing was making more difference to the error at this level of accuracy than adjustment could (without spending hours of making very small adjustments).

 

I then used PEMPro to do 10 cycles of the worm and uploaded a curve to the mount.  I need to double check with another run (PEC enabled), but it looks like it the PEC error went from +/- 3.5 arc secs to +/- 1.1 arc secs.

 

I ran some tests with 450 second HA exposures (Unguided, guided and guided plus dithered)…….  The guiding sine wave has disappeared and the total RMS error is down to about 0.7 arc secs (with a few nasty 2sec peaks)…… phew !!

 

All of that is without T-point or Protrack enabled.  I’ve got another couple of night’s testing / fiddling to do, then hopefully I can get back to what I want to do.  Getting some good quality exposure data !!!


Edited by SgtErnestBilko, 23 September 2021 - 04:01 AM.

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#17 alphatripleplus

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 07:48 AM

Sounds like you are well on your way.



#18 Sacred Heart

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 08:41 AM

2 arc second peak to peak,  no T Point,  that is GREAT.  You nailed it.  What scope / camera did you do that with???   Joe



#19 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 02:48 PM

2 arc second peak to peak,  no T Point,  that is GREAT.  You nailed it.  What scope / camera did you do that with???   Joe

Thank you.  I'm doing a 250 point T-point model now.

 

FSQ-106DXv4 | NiteCrawler | ZWO OAG | ASI174MM | ZWO EFW | ASI1600MM-Pro

 

Ian



#20 Sacred Heart

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 02:57 PM

Thank you.  I'm doing a 250 point T-point model now.

 

FSQ-106DXv4 | NiteCrawler | ZWO OAG | ASI174MM | ZWO EFW | ASI1600MM-Pro

 

Ian

So your main imager is the ZWO 1600  and the 106 refractor.  Just trying to get an idea of your FOV vs mine.  I'll be using a ZWO 178 with my CFF 92 F6.   Thanks.    Joe



#21 Sacred Heart

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 03:02 PM

Sure would love to know how far you are off on that first run.   It has to be real close.      Joe



#22 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 03:59 PM

So your main imager is the ZWO 1600  and the 106 refractor.  Just trying to get an idea of your FOV vs mine.  I'll be using a ZWO 178 with my CFF 92 F6.   Thanks.    Joe

yes   1600 with 106 refractor



#23 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 04:00 PM

Sure would love to know how far you are off on that first run.   It has to be real close.      Joe

Sorry Joe, I'm not sure what you mean.  Happy to answer if you can be more specific.

Ian



#24 Sacred Heart

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 04:33 PM

Sorry Joe, I'm not sure what you mean.  Happy to answer if you can be more specific.

Ian

What did your polar alignment data say after the first T Point run???   You are probably within 1 knob click of true north.  Joe



#25 SgtErnestBilko

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 06:35 AM

What did your polar alignment data say after the first T Point run???   You are probably within 1 knob click of true north.  Joe

AZ was out by 0.4 tics  (TSX - 'excellent no adjustment necessary')

ALT by 1.2 tics (TSX - 'good enough no adjustment necessary')

 

I am going to do more tests with images (which are the onlynumbers that really matter), but I am not inclined to do anymore polar adjustments.  I use protrack so (see below) its only ALT 8 arcsecs and AZ 13 arcsecs out.

 

 

Overall TSX says

The polar axis is currently 125 arcsec above and 16 arcsec
to the left of the true pole.

 

To reach the refracted pole, (recommended, same as report above)
lower the polar axis by
81 arcsec and rotate the mount clockwise by 26 arcsec.

 

To minimize field rotation, lower the polar axis by
86 arcsec and rotate the mount clockwise by 26 arcsec.

 

To minimize no-ProTrack declination drift, lower the polar axis by
42 arcsec and rotate the mount clockwise by 39 arcsec.

 

To minimize no-ProTrack total drift, lower the polar axis by
8 arcsec and rotate the mount clockwise by 13 arcsec.

 

To simulate the drift method, raise the polar axis by
78 arcsec and rotate the mount clockwise by 39 arcsec.


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