22 replies to this topic

[ngatel]

I would like to edit a layer created in Star Tools (saved as a TIFF) in Affinity Photo. Then save it as a TIFF and open it back up in Star Tools.

 

As far as I can see, the only way to save a TIFF file in Affinity Photo is to export it in that format. Unfortunately, Star Tools can't open this file. 

 

Any suggestions?

[F.Meiresonne]

I would like to edit a layer created in Star Tools (saved as a TIFF) in Affinity Photo. Then save it as a TIFF and open it back up in Star Tools.

 

As far as I can see, the only way to save a TIFF file in Affinity Photo is to export it in that format. Unfortunately, Star Tools can't open this file. 

 

Any suggestions?

If you have DSS open the file as tiff and   save as FTS again...I had to do this with some tiff files from' the Elf' ST could not open 

[Mike in Rancho]

If you have DSS open the file as tiff and   save as FTS again...I had to do this with some tiff files from' the Elf' ST could not open 

Yes.  Or even just back to TIFF again, though change the name if you don't want to overwrite it.  I don't think I've had trouble with ST opening any TIFF's that came from DSS.  Gimp will also work, with the default TIFF export settings.  But if you change the save settings, ST might choke on it.

 

Just too many different ways to create files yet still call them TIFF, I guess.

[Tapio]

Most likely StarTools expects uncompressed tiff file so that is what you should use.

[ngatel]

Removing star artifacts is WAY easier in Affinity Photo than Star Tools. Plus some fine tuning tools work better.

 

I opened the saved TIFF file from Star Tools in Affinity Photo. In Affinity Photo I did some minor edits. Exported it from Affinity Photo as a TIFF file.

 

Star Tools cannot open the Affinity TIFF file.

 

I opened the Affinity TIFF file in Astro Pixel Processor, but the colors weren't right. Saved it as both a TIFF and FITS file.

 

Star Tools could not open this TIFF file either. But it could open the FITS file. But the colors had changed some from the Affinity Photo edits.

 

I did find some things that can be changed in the Affinity export parameters. So this may not be possible or I need to do some research on what Affinity Photo does when it exports a TIFF file from Star Tools, then is is exported as a TIFF.

 

I know this sounds convoluted ;-) 

 

Anyway, will have to put this on a back burner for a while. Gonna leave tomorrow for a couple weeks of camping in the high desert. Hoping for no clouds or wind. We'll be in a Bortle 2 site.

 

Thanks for your feedback all.

[OldManSky]

It's likely that the "layers" from Affinity aren't supported by other programs, since they're not standard in the TIFF format.

So to get files out of Affinity that you can open in other programs that support TIFF, you will have to "flatten" the image first -- merge the layers, and save the file as a flat image file without layers.

Then make sure the bit depth for the TIFF file is something that the other program can work with (16 bit is usually safer than 32 bit).

 

Layers are usually a proprietary thing, and they're different in each piece of software.  So moving files with layers between programs is...hard if not impossible.

[ngatel]

Thanks, Paul.

 

I am thinking this probably won't work, but I'll do some tinkering when I have time.

[Mike in Rancho]

You go out camping and hiking more than you are at home? 

 

One question is where in the ST process are you wanting to do this back-and-forth?  A number of issues are raised if it is during tracking, as well as if you are in composite mode (even using OSC if loaded with center option).  First is that you will lose the benefits of complete tracking, which is no small thing!  The second is that saves from composite mode, pre-color module anyway, will not be RGB.

 

The other question is just what star artifacts you are having trouble with that you like Affinity's solution for?  There might be ways to do the same thing from within ST.  Or do such touch-ups, in ST or Affinity, post-tracking.

[bobzeq25]

I would like to edit a layer created in Star Tools (saved as a TIFF) in Affinity Photo. Then save it as a TIFF and open it back up in Star Tools.

 

As far as I can see, the only way to save a TIFF file in Affinity Photo is to export it in that format. Unfortunately, Star Tools can't open this file. 

 

Any suggestions?

Suggestion.

 

By doing that, you're damaging a major advantage of StarTools.  It tracks what processing you've applied to the image, and can adjust some later steps based on the history.  If you've done something in Affinity, ST doesn't know that.  If you interrupt the ST workflow, you may totally lose the history of the first segment.  This may be why you can't open the Affinity file.

 

This is just not a good idea.  Processing is like a chess game.  You don't go for the best results on each individual move (or processing step).  You use a series of moves (or processing steps) to build harmoniously to a result.  ST, used as it was intended to be used, is excellent at facilitating that.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to gain by patching Affinity into the middle of a ST workflow.  I'm darn sure it isn't worth disrupting that workflow.

 

People here are forever coming up with "creative" substitutes for usual methods.  They rarely (never?) are better than the usual methods.  It's far more likely that they'll mess things up.

Edited by bobzeq25, 28 September 2021 - 04:26 PM.

[ngatel]

bonzeq25,

Before going to the layer module, I have processed the image to include noise reduction, which ends tracking as I understand it. Then I remove the star fielded and save the background. This is from a HOO stock. From here I can add the star field from a RGB stack. I did this as explained and detailed in this thread: https://www.cloudyni...-in-star-tools/
When the stars are removed using the Heal module, artifacts are left behind. Going back to Heal and removing the artifacts in Star Tools is tedious. I would like to do that in Affinity. Maybe I can’t, which is okay.

One other thing I found is when doing everything in Star Tools is the pixels don’t seem to align perfectly when I add the star field layer as mentioned in the earlier thread. However there are some sliders to adjust the offset. I haven’t played around with those yet.

[Mike in Rancho]

Post-tracking, a little bounce-back and forth should be fine, if you can get your TIFF's to match formats liked by all programs.  Still, as Bob notes you have to have a plan for what you are actually doing and whether it makes sense.  Sounds to me like you want to use a clone-stamp like tool?  Yeah, Ivo does not provide one of those, and I bet it's on purpose! 

 

This starless thing has really taken off and somehow ended up as a "normal" part of processing it seems.  Go figure.

 

Anyway, there are other methods of bringing in RGB stars to ST without star removal and then heal/interpolated guesses of the missing detail.  Also, yes Layer can shift the X and Y, but if you have your two sets registered and all cropping/binning matched, you shouldn't need to.

 

You might also try out the new NBAccent module for blends of RGB and NB.

 

I'll look at my ST and Gimp TIFF's later though and see if I can figure out why some work and some don't.

[nyairman]

Just a thought as I am not familiar with Affinity photo.

Is there a way to "convert" the ST's tiff file to a 24bit (or 16 bit) RGB tiff file in Affinity photo?

Star Tools should be able to open that file format.

[ngatel]

Post-tracking, a little bounce-back and forth should be fine, if you can get your TIFF's to match formats liked by all programs.  Still, as Bob notes you have to have a plan for what you are actually doing and whether it makes sense.  Sounds to me like you want to use a clone-stamp like tool?  Yeah, Ivo does not provide one of those, and I bet it's on purpose! 
 
This starless thing has really taken off and somehow ended up as a "normal" part of processing it seems.  Go figure.
 
Anyway, there are other methods of bringing in RGB stars to ST without star removal and then heal/interpolated guesses of the missing detail.  Also, yes Layer can shift the X and Y, but if you have your two sets registered and all cropping/binning matched, you shouldn't need to.
 
You might also try out the new NBAccent module for blends of RGB and NB.
 
I'll look at my ST and Gimp TIFF's later though and see if I can figure out why some work and some don't.

I want remove the L-enhance stars and replace them with RGB stars, which I did in the other thread. And yes, Affinity Photo gets rid of the original Star artifacts nicely. It’s not a priority right now. I’m packing up for a two week camping trip.

[ngatel]

Just a thought as I am not familiar with Affinity photo.

Is there a way to "convert" the ST's tiff file to a 24bit (or 16 bit) RGB tiff file in Affinity photo?

Star Tools should be able to open that file format.

It can export (not save) in many formats and each has several options. I haven’t explored them yet.

[ngatel]

Okay, I have some answers to my original question. 

 

What I wanted to do is remove the narrowband stars and replace them with broadband stars for more accurate star colors. The issue with StarTools (and other programs I have seen) is removing stars leaves artifacts. Star artifact removal can be done in StarTools, but it is tedious (I am using version 1.7). It is quick and easy in Affinity Photo using the "in paint" tool, similar to what PhotoShop can do.

 

Keep in mind that the Heal module to remove stars is typically done after Tracking is turned off and noise reduction has been completed, so tracking isn't an issue.

 

What I did find that works well, at least for this exercise, is to save the Affinity Photo edited starless image as a PNG file. It can be opened in StarTools and the broadband starfField layer added to it.

 

But . . .

 

I am finding it is probably better just to use the Compose Module in StarTools and combine the Ha, Oiii, and RGB files, then do a Star Mask in StarTools and adjust the star colors, then if needed, use the Shrink Stars module. What I am now doing in StarTools is:

• Star Mask
• Open the Color Module and keep the mask
• Click the "Sample" button to calibrate the stars
• Go to mask, click "Invert," then Keep and the background color is adjusted

 

Sometimes the last step doesn't work, as it changes the star colors. Sometimes it doesn't. In that case I cancel out. Then do the star mask and sample, and exit the Color Module. Going back into the Color Module with an inverted Star Mask usually gets the colors right.

 

One other thing I found, that if one uses APP's "Combine RGB" module to blend the Ha, Oiii, and RGB stack files, you have to use the "Linear" and not "OSC" option when loading the file into StarTools. Probably better to just use the Combine Tool in StarTools.

[Tapio]

Did you know that now you can remove stars with Affinity Photo using StarXterminator plug in?

[ngatel]

Did you know that now you can remove stars with Affinity Photo using StarXterminator plug in?

Do you know if it works on the Mac version of Affinity?

[Ivo Jager]

What I wanted to do is remove the narrowband stars and replace them with broadband stars for more accurate star colors. The issue with StarTools (and other programs I have seen) is removing stars leaves artifacts.

The cleanest (and easiest) way to give NB images RGB-colored stars, without any sort of artifacts, would be to;

 

• Process NB stack as normal (preferably in a way that mimics its constituent bands in the visual spectrum, e.g. a HOO bi-color which maps Ha and O-III roughly in the way they would appear in the visual spectrum).
• Process RGB stack as normal.

 

Then in the Layer module, put the finished NB image in the background and the RGB stack in the foreground.

Create a mask that contains all the stars whose colors you wish to grab from the RGB stack (Mask, Auto, Stars, Do - also check out the new AltStars preset and associated mask generation in 1.8).

Back in the Layer module, set Layer Mode to Color of Foreground.

 

The NB image will now inherit purely the coloring from the RGB stack. Use Mask Fuzz and Filter Kernel Radius to taste, to smoothen the compositing.

 

This procedure avoids artifacts, avoids tainting your image with artificial detail, retains the (usually) tighter stars of the NB image, and gives you full per-pixel control, should you need it.

 

Hope this helps!

[ngatel]

Ivo,

 

Thanks for taking the time to share this method. Sounds good and I'll give it a try.

[ngatel]

Following Ivo's instructions, I started over.

 

From the L-enhance filter subs I extracted Ha and Oiii as separate stacks in APP.

 

HOO Image

Using the Compose Mode in StarTools I combined Ha and Oiii into the appropriate RGB channels and set the Luminance routine to: "L + Synthetic L from R(2xG)B, RGB (Color from OSC/DSLR)"

 

I went through all the modules just accepting the default settings. Then I saved the image as a TIFF

 

RGB Image

I stacked the RGB subs (UV-IR filter) in APP, then process the image in StarTools using the defaults. In the color mode I reduced any green I could find and slightly upped the red channel and upped the saturation a tiny bit. Saved the image as a TIFF

 

From here I followed Ivo's instructions, only I did not

 

"Use Mask Fuzz and Filter Kernel Radius to taste, to smoothen the compositing."

 

I skipped this to save time and need to go back and working on this again.

 

Here's the final HOORGB image.

 

[Mike in Rancho]

Yeah those omitted steps are fairly critical to the blend, Nick. 

 

Also note that sometimes the same fuzz level may not work for all stars, so you might need to try it in stages?  I've noticed sometimes the fuzz that works good for larger stars will vanish out (or remove the Fg coloring, if that's the blend method chosen) the tiny ones.

 

RGB stars can also be hit or miss, I'm learning, even though I like full star colors a lot.  In the Pacman I'm working on, which is HOO shifted pretty heavily towards the O, the full star coloring almost appears out of place, even gimmicky, to the overall image.  I'll try a few more times, and maybe even with a different bicolor palette, but may very well just toss my RGB and stick with the pure HOO.  Could also be image dependent and possibly work better on the Veil than the Pacman.

[ngatel]

. . . but may very well just toss my RGB and stick with the pure HOO.  Could also be image dependent and possibly work better on the Veil than the Pacman.

I hear you. 

 

It's a lot of work and not perfect so far. However you might try this using the compose mode:

 

Load Ha and red into the Compose module and save as a mono file. Do the same with Oiii and green, Oil and blue. Now you have three mono files. Go back to compose and load them into the R, G, and B channels. Then keep the composite. I've done this a few times and sometimes it works well.

[Mike in Rancho]

I hear you. 

 

It's a lot of work and not perfect so far. However you might try this using the compose mode:

 

Load Ha and red into the Compose module and save as a mono file. Do the same with Oiii and green, Oil and blue. Now you have three mono files. Go back to compose and load them into the R, G, and B channels. Then keep the composite. I've done this a few times and sometimes it works well.

That's one I haven't quite tried yet on the Pacman, though some of the NBA workflows probably came close.  I might give it a go.

 

I did feed my extracted L-eNhance Ha into a blend with full-range R when I did the Cocoon, with reasonable results.  Would have to see how the other half of the filter reacts to the same thing.  I think boosting the red with Ha might be easier than the split side G and B, and of course everything can get sort of wonky as the luminance and color data will be so disconnected.