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Only one bino: 8x42 (spacewalk), 15x70 (starfield), or 10x50 (Goldilocks?)?

Beginner Binoculars Equipment Observing
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#1 Escape Pod

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Posted 27 September 2021 - 07:53 PM

Only one bino: 8x42 (spacewalk), 15x70 (starfield), or 10x50 (Goldilocks?)?

 

Assuming you already have a widefield telescope that achieves 4 degree tfov, where does the most bino magic lay?

 

I know, another noob which bino question. Hear me out.

 

I don’t want to own 3 pairs of binoculars. I want to own one pair that is handholdable or at least enjoyable with a good monopod. I’m less interested in “bagging Messiers” and more interested in the ways in which bino vision can enhance / compliment my telescope experience.

 

I’ve read countless threads s and other fora. Most fascinating to me was this one, an argument for spending lots of money on a small pair of binoculars. 
 

https://www.cloudyni...os/#entry312741

 

Full disclosure, Im not about to go spend $1000 on binos. What resonated with me about the post was the statement that the key advantage to binos is the return to simplicity. A lounge chair, a pair of 8x42s, and a glass of wine. 

One response, by Erik D, was equally fascinating:

“My smaller 8X32, 7X50 and 10X40 binos have wider FOV but they just don't have the "reach" of my larger 20X80s and 25X100s. I see a much bigger swath of sky with 5-10 deg FOV. Most of that is empty grey sky from my mag 4.5 backyard. Bigger binos show the "star density" I find most sastifying. 12X50 is better, 20X80 hits the "sweet spot".

 

If you had to say which part of binoviewing was most visually impactful for you, is it the immersive spacewalk feeling of an 8* tfov, or a stereo star density / DSO experience at higher magnifications like 20x80?

 

Which is just another way of restating the age old 8x42 versus 15x70 question. Is the 10x50 the best or worst of both worlds?

 

Maybe I should just get a pair of Orion 2x52s and study my constellations smile.gif.

 

Assuming you already have a widefield telescope that achieves 4 degree tfov, and Bortle 3-4 skies to support low power widefield spacewalks, where does the most magic lay?


Edited by Escape Pod, 27 September 2021 - 08:02 PM.

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#2 TOMDEY

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Posted 27 September 2021 - 08:14 PM

There actually is just one 10x50 that captures the best of both worlds >>> the Nikon WX. I've had mine for a few months now and the views are superlative. It delivers an astonishing 9o field at 10x magnification that is perfectly sharp over that entire format with generous eye relief. Expensive, and yet a true bargain at the cost.

 

Here's a good review >>>

 

https://www.allbinos...X_10x50_IF.html

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#3 Escape Pod

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Posted 27 September 2021 - 08:47 PM

There actually is just one 10x50 that captures the best of both worlds >>> the Nikon WX. I've had mine for a few months now and the views are superlative. It delivers an astonishing 9o field at 10x magnification that is perfectly sharp over that entire format with generous eye relief. Expensive, and yet a true bargain at the cost.

 

Here's a good review >>>

 

https://www.allbinos...X_10x50_IF.html

Fascinating. I just love a win-win.

 

While I’m unlikely to find $5k to put in this direction, it does beg the question what’s the widest affordable 10x50 out there with acceptable eye relief? (I don’t wear glasses). 


Edited by Escape Pod, 27 September 2021 - 08:47 PM.


#4 sevenofnine

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Posted 27 September 2021 - 09:21 PM

So you want a binocular "that can enhance/compliment (your) telescope experience." That would be a 10x50. They are the perfect blend of power and light gathering ability IMO. The Nikon AE 10x50 is the most recommended astronomy binocular on this forum. I feel it is a great buy for a reasonable amount of money. ($175 @ B&H Photo).

 

The 15x70 view is covered by a low powered wide view eyepiece in your 80mm refractor. The 8x42 is a compromise between hand held daytime and night time use. Now an 8x56 might be an option if 10x50's are just too hard for you to hold steady. For night sky viewing, you want large objectives starting at 50mm. The power is more of a personal choice depending on how you plan to support them. Best of luck to you! waytogo.gif


Edited by sevenofnine, 28 September 2021 - 11:16 AM.

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#5 Astro-Master

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Posted 27 September 2021 - 09:30 PM

One summer night I compared several pair of bino's under a dark 21:45 MPSAS sky.

 

Bushnell 7x35mm extra wide angle 11.5 degrees

Celestron 10x50mm wide angle 7 degrees

Stellarvue 12x 60mm wide angle 5.7 degrees

Celestron Ultima 9x 63mm 5.4 degrees

Celestron 15x 70mm 4.4 degrees

 

The 7x 35 had the widest FOV by far but view was not as bright as the others.  

The 10x50 was a cheaper pair I paid $40 for but it wasn't a 7 degree FOV, maybe 5.5 or 6 degrees,

The 12x 60 were nice, but heavy.

The 9x63 gave brilliant views but only had about a 50 degree AFOV 

The 15x 70 was the clear winner with brighter images and large AFOV.  the clusters, and nebula really stood out.  It gave the best views by far, higher power and a wide FOV.


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#6 Stevenkelby

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Posted 27 September 2021 - 09:43 PM

Next best thing to a WX...

 

https://www.adorama....chredirect=true


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#7 ihf

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Posted 27 September 2021 - 10:16 PM

Don, you have not stated yet what glasses of wine you sip at night. I gather it isn't Screaming Eagle, otherwise you wouldn't have thought twice about getting that WX! You want hand holdable binos. Some find 10x50s easy to hold, others relax in a chair at 7x. I would not have fun with a monopod and 15x70 is out of my hand holding league. (The Canon 15x50 IS on the other hand are really nice, but just over USD 1k.) So something wide angle-ish should scratch your itch to complement your 80mm telescope experience. I am thinking Nikon Action Ex 7x35, 8x40 (both fairly wide angle, USD 120-140) or better a Kowa 6.5x32 (USD 350) plus a comfortable camping or garden chair. Oh, and a few cans of IPA maybe?


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#8 TOMDEY

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Posted 27 September 2021 - 10:32 PM

Fascinating. I just love a win-win.

 

While I’m unlikely to find $5k to put in this direction, it does beg the question what’s the widest affordable 10x50 out there with acceptable eye relief? (I don’t wear glasses). 

With the NY Sales Tax... it comes in just a shade under $7K... and well worth it.    Tom



#9 DeanD

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 12:00 AM

What about Orion Resolux 10.5x70's? https://www.telescop...lars/p/9545.uts

Hand-holdable at a pinch, flat and very sharp 5 degree fov. I have the 15x70's which are excellent, but the 10.5's move the view up a notch, and give the Fujinon 10x70's more than a run for the money.

 

I think my nicest wide-field views come from my Swaro Habicht 8x30's. With them I noticed the outer nebulosity of the LMC and Barnard's loop for the first time. (Mind you, this was in Bortle 1 skies).

 

- and I second Steven's comment about the Fujinon 10x50's. Excellent glass for the money. I haven't had the pleasure of trying the Nikon WX, but they are 10 times the price of the Fujinons... I see the Fujinons only just got beaten out of first place by the WX's in the Allbino's rankings: https://www.allbinos...king-10x50.html

 

Depending on your budget, another excellent 10x50 is the Kunming BA8 clone of the Fujinon's, such as the Oberwerk Ultra (and a bunch of other re-brands): https://oberwerk.com...eries-10x50mm/ 

 

Have fun!

 

Dean


Edited by DeanD, 28 September 2021 - 12:01 AM.

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#10 ECP M42

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 12:27 AM

Since I pointed the 10x binoculars towards the starry sky, I have seen the magic of magnification in that sea of stars more visible than the naked eye (and many other details of the objects).
Then, when I tried a 15x, my heart opened and my jaw dropped, so I noticed that 10x had become "not enough" to enjoy all that universe magic.

 

My opinion is that between 18x and 20x is the best point to "have goat and cabbage". The reality is that these binoculars are typically bigger and heavier than what is needed and much more than a massive 10x50 (or 12x50).
So, I built my 18x50 ad hoc, weighing a maximum of 1Kg or 35oz. And now I enjoy it with a simple mini-tripod in tow.

 

Of course, if you can frequent Bortle 3 skies, a high quality 18x56 would be ideal and much more manageable than a 20x80.
The APM 20x70ED would be a great choice in my opinion, but it weighs over 2Kg or 70oz (which is still a little less than the WX 10x50 lol.gif).


Edited by ECP M42, 28 September 2021 - 12:28 AM.

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#11 Stevenkelby

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 12:38 AM

Any details on your 18x50 there Columbo? ☺ 



#12 ECP M42

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 12:55 AM

Any details on your 18x50 there Columbo? ☺ 

The body is of the Oberwerk Deluxe 10x50, the objectives are Marumi DHG + 3D achromatic doublets and I designed the tubes in aluminum, but still being manufactured by the turner.
This image is the prototype version of this summer. 

 

Bin mon.jpg


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#13 ihf

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 12:58 AM

Don already has an 20x80 monocular with 70 degree AFOV. An 18x50 or 20x70 binocular might not offer much different experiences. It is tough to get a wider AFOV than 70 degrees with binos. He will probably have to settle in the 60-70 degree range with binos as well. Most popular astro binos have 4-5mm exit pupil. The only variables are how large the bino should be (=magnification), and Porro or Roof?


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#14 ECP M42

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 01:09 AM

We are always on that point:
Are you using a 20x80 telescope to do what?
Would 18x50 manual binoculars be easier and more fun?



#15 Stevenkelby

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 01:49 AM

Impressive! Can't wait to see the finished product! 


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#16 MT4

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 02:44 AM

Don, you're talking about one hand-holdable bino that will give you an immersive spacewalk feeling.   Hand-holdable means for most people that the mag is 10x or lower.   Immersive spacewalk feeling means a wide AFOV, e.g. around 70 degs.

 

I have a Nikon EDG 7x42 that has an 8-deg TFOV, all of which stunningly sharp.  With the mag being 7x, the AFOV is about 56 degs which is nice but won't give that immersive spacewalk feeling you're looking for.  (A Zeiss Dialyt 7x42 with an 8.6-deg TFOV would be wider but still no spacewalk feeling.)

 

My Nikon Ell 8x30 with its 8.8-deg TFOV, on the other hand, gives a wonderfully wide view, with a central sharpness that is fully on par with my Nikon EDG's.   It's very hand-holdable thanks to its classic porro shape while being very lightweight at the same time.  It's what I used to star hop to M31 for the very first time.  (That M31 was just a faint smudge in the Nikon was no fault of its own, but just the stark reality of my local skies.)

 

The Nikon Ell 8x30 sells for about 500 dollars new.  (That's what I paid for a new pair late last year.).  It'd be my recommendation for a bino under 1000 dollars that is hand-holdable and gives you the immersive spacewalk feeling that you're looking for.  Since you're looking for just one bino to complement your 4-deg telescope, i'd recommend that you go for good quality.


Edited by MT4, 28 September 2021 - 03:27 AM.


#17 edwincjones

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 03:52 AM

I would eliminate the 15x70 as close to your scope,

the 10x50 would be better for astronomy

the 8x42 better all around for terrestrial and astro

the 2x50s would be an addition to the above-most of us cannot have just one

 

edj


Edited by edwincjones, 28 September 2021 - 03:53 AM.

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#18 j.gardavsky

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 05:18 AM

The body is of the Oberwerk Deluxe 10x50, the objectives are Marumi DHG + 3D achromatic doublets and I designed the tubes in aluminum, but still being manufactured by the turner.
This image is the prototype version of this summer. 

 

attachicon.gifBin mon.jpg

In the past,

I have been experimenting with the Nikon APO (2 ED lenses) front teleconvertor on the 42mm aperture binoculars.

As I was not able to get the second Nikon teleconvertor, I sold the Nikon, and have added the 15x60 DOCTER Porros to my arsenal.

 

Best,

JG


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#19 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 05:32 AM

What about Orion Resolux 10.5x70's? https://www.telescop...lars/p/9545.uts

Hand-holdable at a pinch, flat and very sharp 5 degree fov. I have the 15x70's which are excellent, but the 10.5's move the view up a notch, and give the Fujinon 10x70's more than a run for the money.

 

My thinking:

 

I have a pair of 10.5x70 Resolux's as well as a pair of 15x70 Resolux's.  I also have a number of refractors capable of 4 degree and wider fields of view. 

 

If one has a refractor capable of a 4 degree TFoV and wants a single pair of hand-holdable binoculars, the 10x50s are the ones.  The 10.5 x 70s can be hand held but at least for me, only for short periods.  They weigh 5.5 pounds.. 

 

For me, the advantage of the 10x50s is that the field is significantly wider and I can use them for extended periods of time to scan the sky, to study the sky and identify parts of constellations so I understand them better for star hopping with larger scopes. There's a freedom with 10x50s that just doesn't exist with binoculars like the 10.5x70 or 15x70s, they are really best used on a tripod. 

 

An alternative to 10x50s are 10x42 roof prism binoculars.  Lighter, better terrestrially because of the less than 10 foot close focus.  My current 10x42s focus at 5-6 feet. 

 

Jon


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#20 TheUser

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 05:38 AM

it is not possible to have only one binocular and cover every case

 

from opening post it is not quite clear of which aims topic starter follows. Escape Pod, what are you expecting by using binoculars?


Edited by TheUser, 28 September 2021 - 05:41 AM.


#21 Escape Pod

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 06:43 AM

Thanks everyone. I'm intrigued by the distinction MT4 made between AFOV and TFOV for that immersive spacewalk feeling. Does putting an ultra wide-angle eyepiece on the back of an optical train not create the same experience as a bino with a bigger aperture to magnification ratio?

 

Back to school for me. 

 

it is not possible to have only one binocular and cover every case

 

from opening post it is not quite clear of which aims topic starter follows. Escape Pod, what are you expecting by using binoculars?

Thanks for the clarifying question, TheUser. I guess I'm asking where bino's biggest "ooo----ahhhh" payoff is found if I already have a telescope to isolate specific DSOs. Is it in wandering aimlessly through the expanse? If so, maybe I get something like a 6.5 x 32 or at most an 8x42 with an 8 degree TFOV. 

 

Or is it, as Jon says, to study the sky and particular parts of constellations, in which case it sounds like 10x50 is the minimum useful magnification and the maximum hand-holdable weight. 

 

One last point: I should clarify that my max budget for this initial foray into the bino world is a laughably low $200. Having just ordered a short tube refractor (the Orion 120ST), with fast f/5 glass that required me to up my eyepiece game (ES 82 30/24/14mm), I'm quite short. But the journey to understand wide-field telescoping also enlightened me as to the value of a pair of handheld binoculars---not least to simplify the business and get back to basics from time to time. 

 

I was debating between the Oberwerk 10x50 deluxe and the Orion 10x50 Ultraview, both around 6.5* TFOV. But I am tempted by the wider 8* TFOV and easier hand-holdability of the Oberwerk 8x42 deluxe. Of course, that one is almost as heavy (2.3 pounds) as the 10x50. 

 

On a streeetch, Oberwerk have an 8x42 roof prism ED (8* TFOV--$330) that has gotten high marks from astronomers for its good behavior while pointed starward. It's genius is that it's only 1.5 pounds.  


Edited by Escape Pod, 28 September 2021 - 06:53 AM.

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#22 f18dad

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 06:56 AM

+2 waytogo.gif on Jon's #19

 

10x50 Resolux (BA8's) or 10x42 roofs. Binos are always compromises. IMO this recommendation is the best compromise answering OP's post. For me, the 10x42 roofs are the go anywhere do anything convenience solution.


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#23 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 06:56 AM

Or is it, as Jon says, to study the sky and particular parts of constellations, in which case it sounds like 10x50 is the minimum useful magnification and the maximum hand-holdable weight.

 

Actually, for studying constellations, I consider 10x50s, the maximum useful magnification, 7x35s are better.  But 10x50s are a good balance between that wider field to see the big picture and enough magnification and aperture to see some DSOs.

 

One last point: I should clarify that my max budget for this initial foray into the bino world is a laughably low $200

 

 

$200 is not laughably low.. Sometimes reading this forum one might think that but $200 buys a very competent 50 mm binocular that will show nearly everything that a much more expensive 50mm will show.  

 

I have the older made in Japan 10x50 Orion Ultraviews. I am very happy with them, they are good binoculars but I am always reluctant to recommend Orion binoculars because of their very short warranty period.  In this regard Nikon is much better. The 10x50s Action Extremes are very popular at the under $200 price point. 

 

Oberwerk has the advantage that you are dealing with someone who knows binoculars. You are not talking to some support staff that has never actually looked through the binocular in question, you are talking to the person who knows them inside and out and fixes them.

 

Jon


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#24 f18dad

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 07:10 AM

 

If so, maybe I get something like a 6.5 x 32 or at most an 8x42 with an 8 degree TFOV. waytogo.gif

 

Or is it, as Jon says, to study the sky and particular parts of constellations, in which case it sounds like 10x50 is the minimum useful magnification and the maximum hand-holdable weight. waytogo.gif

 

One last point: I should clarify that my max budget for this initial foray into the bino world is a laughably low $200. Look at the Nikon AE's at B&H. For the price you will not be disappointed.

 

I was debating between the Oberwerk 10x50 deluxe and the Orion 10x50 Ultraview, both around 6.5* TFOV. But I am tempted by the wider 8* TFOV and easier hand-holdability of the Oberwerk 8x42 deluxe. Of course, that one is almost as heavy (2.3 pounds) as the 10x50. 

 

On a streeetch, Oberwerk have an 8x42 roof prism ED (8* TFOV--$330) that has gotten high marks from astronomers for its good behavior while pointed starward. It's genius is that it's only 1.5 pounds.  waytogo.gif

 

Just call Kevin at Oberwerk and he will guide you objectively without bias. You can make up your own mind after his feedback.

 

IMO 10x50 BA8's, Nikon AE's, or 8/10x42 roofs. I went with 10x42 roofs for my own reasons, mostly because I had a pair of AE 8x40's already (for the price maybe unbeatable - I love them but maybe too weak for night skies).

 

Good luck! It's an excruciating process! lol.gif 


Edited by f18dad, 28 September 2021 - 07:11 AM.

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#25 MT4

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Posted 28 September 2021 - 07:55 AM

I'm intrigued by the distinction MT4 made between AFOV and TFOV for that immersive spacewalk feeling.

Let me give you a few more examples of binos I own that give me an immersive spacewalk feeling and some that don’t.  Hopefully these will help drive home the key point about AFOV.  
 

Immersive spacewalk feeling, aside from the Nikon Ell 8x30 I recommended earlier:

1)  Nikon Ell 10x35:                TFOV = 7 degs, AFOV = 70 degs
2)  Nikon 18x70:                     TFOV = 4 degs, AFOV = 72 degs.

3)  32x82 Kowa Highlander:   TFOV = 2.2 degs, AFOV = 70.4 degs

 

Almost immersive:

1)  Maven B5 15x56:               TFOV = 4.5 degs, AFOV = 67.5 degs

2)  Canon 15x50 IS:                 TFOV = 4.5 degs, AFOV = 67.5 degs

3)  50x82 Kowa Highlander:     TFOV = 1.34 degs, AFOV = 67 degs

 

No immersive spacewalk feeling - in fact downright tunnel vision feeling!

1)  Kasai 2x54 (glasses on):     TFOV = 24 degs, AFOV = 48 degs           

1)  Fujinon 3x25:                       TFOV = 15 degs, AFOV = 45 degs

 

I am a sucker for wide-angle binos.  I enjoy all the binos in the immersive and almost-immersive categories.  Not so much the tunnel-vision category.  That said, with the Kasai 2x54, if I take my glasses off then I can see the full 36-deg TFOV or 72-deg AFOV and voila it’s very immersive!


Edited by MT4, 28 September 2021 - 08:04 AM.

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