374 replies to this topic

[mcoren]

Two things that contribute to the downfall of brick and mortar stores are obviously, online venues that either have few costs or are nothing but drop-shippers.  Second thing are the costs associated with stores.  Rental, taxes (which in places like major cities can be $20,000/year.  Plus utilities, etc.  One of the worst things was that online sellers never even charged taxes until forced to start collecting it about five years ago.  Also, around 1985, camera stores in New York and other big cities began selling telescopes other than crappy 60mm white refractors, they put pressure on telescope selling stores.  More than a few of them have gone down as well.

That's absolutely true for all specialty retail, but for astronomy, I think there's the additional factor that with the growth of urban sprawl and light pollution, it's harder to simply see the stars, so fewer younger people are taking up the hobby.

[mcoren]

I learned today that Skies Unlimited in Pottstown, Pennsylvania, has closed.

That's very sad.  I had not heard that.

[mcoren]

A couple of folks already mentioned Edmund Scientific in NJ.  I grew up in suburban Philadelphia, and my first telescope was a white Edmund's 3" f/10 newtonian.

 

When I was 14 and ready to graduate from that, my dad and I went to look at a used 8" Dynamax SCT just outside of NYC that we had found in an S&T classified ad.  On the way up, we stopped by the home of Roger W. Tuthill, who warned me in no uncertain terms not to buy a Dynamax, no matter how good the deal appeared to be.  While I would like to say I should have listened to him, that Dynamax, for all its optical and mechanical problems, helped me grow to the next level in the hobby.

[mcoren]

Reading all these awesome comments makes wish there were pictures to go along with them. Pictures of store fronts and the like... Wonderful trip down memory lane!

I was in San Jose on business in 2018 and drove out to the Monterey Bay Aquarium.  On the way, I saw a highway exit sign for Watsonville, so I knew I had to stop!

 

 

[Herchel]

Such a shame to lose two telescope companies 

[jragsdale]

Such a shame to lose two telescope companies 

I don't fret about companies who come and go, but I do worry that US based companies seem to be drying up very fast with no replacements in the pipeline. When all of our scopes aren't just built in China, but designed there and headquartered there, the entry level astronomer won't have such a good local resource. I do applaud companies like ZWO, they've really pushed the boundaries of astrophotography technology making more user friendly and approachable, cheaper, with fairly high quality and great customer service. But there's nothing USA about them.

[CHASLX200]

Plenty of used stuff to last a 1000 years to buy. They can all dry up for all i care. Out of around 650 scopes 98% were all used that i bought and the half of the 2% new scopes were nothing but trouble when i got em or waited years to get em.

[Michael Covington]

That's an important point -- the optics of the telescope suffer no wear in use, and the mechanics generally suffer very little, and are replaceable.

[jragsdale]

Plenty of used stuff to last a 1000 years to buy. They can all dry up for all i care. Out of around 650 scopes 98% were all used that i bought and the half of the 2% new scopes were nothing but trouble when i got em or waited years to get em.

Yeah, I agree. I don't even consider buying new scopes anymore. I think I've bought maybe 2 or 3 out of 200+.

[CHASLX200]

First three new scopes i got where a nitemare. In 1978 i got a 6" F/4 RFT from Star Instruments that came with a 2ndary loose as a moose inside the OTA and it had to go back. Then in 1982 a 10.1 blue tube Dob that took many months to get and waited about 2 years to have Telescopics build me a 12.5" F/8 OTA . Had to get SKY& TELE on their butts to get anything from them. This was in 1988 thru 1990 and they closed the doors soon after i got the mirror.  New 7" Meade ED and we all know how that went.

 

But new Starmasters and Obsesssion's went smooth as silk.

[Refractor6]

 Here's the rundown of what came and went during my years living in Vancouver BC

 

 Back in 1998 we had Harrison Scientific instruments and at the same time the Vancouver Telescope Center....not the one of the same name or owners that came later. The original Vancouver Telescope Center closed about the same time Harrison closed and the the new Vancouver Telescope Center came to life.

 

 Next up was the Vancouver Telescope Center with connections to Harrison Scientific Instruments. They had a few locations before the last one off Burrard St. before they closed in 2017.

 

 At the time the newer Vancouver Telescope Center was open we had Island Eyepiece over on Vancouver Island which closed in 2015. I loved those visits to Island Eyepiece and getting stuff in the mail from Brian the owner which no other shops carried.

 

 Everything I currently own from scope, ep ,mount, filter you name it was bought from these 4 stores I still use today. Every scope was tested in advance with all the scopes of different types I bought and sold from them. The ones I have left are from Harrison and VTC. These were the days before the internet buying method was in full swing and you could test and try stuff out in advance in the flesh or a star parties where the shops brought stuff for folks to check out...I call it the golden years {at least IMO}

 

 Other one with a store front was Canadian Telescopes out in Burnaby that closed in and around 2016.

 

 The only store front shop left in the Vancouver area is Markarian Fine Optics which has connections to both Harrison and VTC which I never visited while all my stuff was in storage during my observing break before moving to the dark sky boonies a year and a half back with everything bought in the flesh all those years back coming along and back in use.

[mcoren]

Plenty of used stuff to last a 1000 years to buy. They can all dry up for all i care. Out of around 650 scopes 98% were all used that i bought and the half of the 2% new scopes were nothing but trouble when i got em or waited years to get em.

 

 

Yeah, I agree. I don't even consider buying new scopes anymore. I think I've bought maybe 2 or 3 out of 200+.

That's great for you guys, but ultimately, you also have a stake in the loss of astronomy retailers and the shrinking of the hobby that it symptomizes.

 

Manufacturers don't earn anything from the used market.  If all the gear was produced years ago and is now just being resold on the used market, it's bye-bye manufacturers of new gear.  Do you like seeing new, innovative products?  Then you better hope the manufacturers have an incentive to produce it, so it can eventually trickle down to the used market.

 

There are cheap imported $25 Plössls and $75 UWAs all over Amazon, but these aren't new innovations.  They're just cost optimizations of somebody else's innovation.  And why should somebody invest huge sums in R&D to make a new premium product, when somebody in another country with lower labor costs and no regard for patents will just make a cheap clone?  Sure, it may not be as good as the original, but as Amazon has demonstrated, cheap junk is a very profitable business.

[Michael Covington]

If it were not for an astronomy retailer (Edmund Scientific), I would never have known there was such a thing as amateur astronomy.

[Tony Gee]

I am forever grateful to my 6th grade teacher who gave me my first Edmund catalog. In addition to the astronomy products they offered, I thought it was totally cool that I could buy a HeNe laser from there, even if I couldn't afford one at the time. Thank you, Ms. K!

[stomias]

Cosmic Connections. I was in there once, in 1985.

Bought my C8 there in 1985!!! I forgot the name of that place. It was about an hour drive from my house. On Farnsworth road in Aurora IL.

[bobhen]

If it were not for an astronomy retailer (Edmund Scientific), I would never have known there was such a thing as amateur astronomy.

When I wanted to step up from my old 60mm refractor and get a "serious" telescope, I went to Edmunds in late 1977. It was the only astro shop around and was about an hour away. When I went, the red tube reflectors and refractors were on display along with a Celestron C5 and maybe a C8. After seeing the scopes on display and their size, a month or so later I bought an 8" SCT, but not from Edmunds.

 

Edmunds was a great store and that was a great trip and remains a nice memory from my beginning astro journey.

 

The image is the Edmund's telescope display a few years before I went.

 

Bob

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[deSitter]

When I wanted to step up from my old 60mm refractor and get a "serious" telescope, I went to Edmunds in late 1977. It was the only astro shop around and was about an hour away. When I went, the red tube reflectors and refractors were on display along with a Celestron C5 and maybe a C8. After seeing the scopes on display and their size, a month or so later I bought an 8" SCT, but not from Edmunds.

 

Edmunds was a great store and that was a great trip and remains a nice memory from my beginning astro journey.

 

The image is the Edmund's telescope display a few years before I went.

 

Bob

No idea they had such an elaborate showroom!

 

-drl

[CHASLX200]

That's great for you guys, but ultimately, you also have a stake in the loss of astronomy retailers and the shrinking of the hobby that it symptomizes.

 

Manufacturers don't earn anything from the used market.  If all the gear was produced years ago and is now just being resold on the used market, it's bye-bye manufacturers of new gear.  Do you like seeing new, innovative products?  Then you better hope the manufacturers have an incentive to produce it, so it can eventually trickle down to the used market.

 

There are cheap imported $25 Plössls and $75 UWAs all over Amazon, but these aren't new innovations.  They're just cost optimizations of somebody else's innovation.  And why should somebody invest huge sums in R&D to make a new premium product, when somebody in another country with lower labor costs and no regard for patents will just make a cheap clone?  Sure, it may not be as good as the original, but as Amazon has demonstrated, cheap junk is a very profitable business.

Don't care if another scope is made or sold . After 650 scopes in 47 years i am done and just want someone to come get what i have left and take it all.

[RichA]

That's absolutely true for all specialty retail, but for astronomy, I think there's the additional factor that with the growth of urban sprawl and light pollution, it's harder to simply see the stars, so fewer younger people are taking up the hobby.

Yes, an external factor, but there is a lot more working against hobbies in general than just the skies.  It's the "it's all bee seen online."  Before digital photography, the best images of planets were visual ones.  One psychologist suggested (speculated) that the decline in male fertility(!) since around WW2 has contributed to less drive or interest in them to explore, or seek out distractions from the regular parts of life like work, etc.  There definitely are signs of people not diverting from a prescribed path of just essential activities these days.  Of course, it doesn't apply to everyone, but perhaps a larger percentage of people than before?  It may also come down to income, with younger people and parents on average having less disposable income to indulge in non-essential expenditures than decades ago, but that has to be counterbalanced against the overall drop in prices for telescopes compared to decades ago.  But going back to stores.  Think to yourself, what happened when you thought of going to a telescope shop 30 years ago compared to now?  To me, it was far more exciting back when because I hadn't seen it all yet, there was no online to speak of with information and places to buy and there is the laziness factor, increase road traffic, a lot of reasons to dissuade people from getting up and going out.

Edited by RichA, 26 November 2024 - 07:32 PM.

[CHASLX200]

Yes, an external factor, but there is a lot more working against hobbies in general than just the skies.  It's the "it's all bee seen online."  Before digital photography, the best images of planets were visual ones.  One psychologist suggested (speculated) that the decline in male fertility(!) since around WW2 has contributed to less drive or interest in them to explore, or seek out distractions from the regular parts of life like work, etc.  There definitely are signs of people not diverting from a prescribed path of just essential activities these days.  Of course, it doesn't apply to everyone, but perhaps a larger percentage of people than before?  It may also come down to income, with younger people and parents on average having less disposable income to indulge in non-essential expenditures than decades ago, but that has to be counterbalanced against the overall drop in prices for telescopes compared to decades ago.  But going back to stores.  Think to yourself, what happened when you thought of going to a telescope shop 30 years ago compared to now?  To me, it was far more exciting back when because I hadn't seen it all yet, there was no online to speak of with information and places to buy and there is the laziness factor, increase road traffic, a lot of reasons to dissuade people from getting up and going out.

Scopes were flat out better back then and looked better. Everything went to fast optics and imaging.  No more F/8 Newts and no more U's.

[starman876]

Don't care if another scope is made or sold . After 650 scopes in 47 years i am done and just want someone to come get what i have left and take it all.

where have we heard this tale before

[Martin]

Don't care if another scope is made or sold . After 650 scopes in 47 years i am done and just want someone to come get what i have left and take it all.

Chas,

I think you should keep going to at least 700 scopes, thats a nice number, 650 just doesn't sound right. You need to try at least 50 more scopes before you quit.

 

Martin 

[starman876]

Chas,

I think you should keep going to at least 700 scopes, thats a nice number, 650 just doesn't sound right. You need to try at least 50 more scopes before you quit.

 

Martin 

He might be at 700 before the year is out

[CHASLX200]

Chas,

I think you should keep going to at least 700 scopes, thats a nice number, 650 just doesn't sound right. You need to try at least 50 more scopes before you quit.

 

Martin 

It could have been over 1000.  I am finding more records as i throw this stuff out and keeping what is worth selling.  . I sure won't be buying anytime soon unless something really freaky pops up local for a freaky low price. I need this stuff out of the house as i plan to sell or spend over 100k to get the house up to date and then sell.  Be better to take a 100k hit and sell it as is and include all the junk in the trunk with the house.  I played all these years and now it is time to pay up for being dumb.

[Michael Covington]

Before we conclude that young people are turning into slackers, look how much art and graphic design many of them learn through online activities -- something the previous generation hardly touched.  And structured writing, now that they don't have to do it all in cursive with a pencil.  

What worries me more is tariffs -- or even threats of tariffs.  Retailers, when they sell anything, have to sell it for the expected cost of buying the next one like it, plus profit.  So if goods from China are *about* to cost 25% or 50% more, that makes them less affordable *now*.

We are going to need to put more emphasis into getting the most out of smaller telescopes, and, especially, fixing up and utilizing secondhand telescopes, because of course much of a telescope never wears out.