368 replies to this topic

[Bob Campbell]

sitting in one of the largest disposable-income centers of the nation

DOGE may have something to say about that

 

Bob

[Serenity Now]

The only tangible stargazing publication I have maintained a subscription during my multi-year hiatus (just shy of one decade) was Amateur Astronomy Magazine despite my extreme level of "dis-engagement" and me as a visual only observer. I've pondered getting back on S&T (loved it best back in the 60-80's) but it and others seem so much fluff and dumbed-down BS nowadays. Online stargazing social media and Groups + sites by special-interest organizations and societies ALPO, Astronomical League and the like, astronomical history orgs and govt sites etc likely provide me with more than I could ever get in MOST contemporary tangible sources and allow me to pick the areas (depth, levels and quality) of information minus ads and insulting my intelligence.

[Bob Campbell]

The only tangible stargazing publication I have maintained a subscription during my multi-year hiatus (just shy of one decade) was Amateur Astronomy Magazine despite my extreme level of "dis-engagement" and me as a visual only observer. I've pondered getting back on S&T (loved it best back in the 60-80's) but it and others seem so much fluff and dumbed-down BS nowadays. Online stargazing social media and Groups + sites by special-interest organizations and societies ALPO, Astronomical League and the like, astronomical history orgs and govt sites etc likely provide me with more than I could ever get in MOST contemporary tangible sources and allow me to pick the areas (depth, levels and quality) of information minus ads and insulting my intelligence.

Agreed on S&T back in the day. Really fun reading, I recall havng a subscription even before I got a scope. For me, CN is super stimulating and gets me to consider things that no astro mag could ever accomplish. I tried going to Stargazer's Lounge (UK) and it was super boring.

 

Bob

[CarolinaBanker]

So I ask the group here, with them (and perhaps similar sites) closing what will stimulate the development of future generations of scientists and engineers in the US?

 

It is troubling to say the least. I do have the answer for the eventual demise of astronomy/telescope related magazines: The amount of free science news sites and direct interaction of agencies (i.e. NASA, JPL) with the public will fill the void of no astro-related mags which has news printed at least half a year old.

 

Will everything become virtual? That is, holding science stuff in your hands become a thing of the past?

 

 

 

Bob

What will stimulate future scientists and engineers? The same that always has, long before the era of lots of specialty retail. Kids are naturally curious they invariably ask “Why?”. I think if that’s the end goal, good science classes in school taught by well qualified teachers paired with excitement around developments in science is what matters, alongside parents who support their children’s learning and curiosity.

 

I think that brick and mortar specialty retailers outside of large cities is probably more of an aberration than anything.

[abe]

Will everything become virtual? That is, holding science stuff in your hands become a thing of the past?

Years ago, I paid a visit to OpticsPlanet in Northbrook Illinois, near Chicago.   They are an online retailer that carries all sorts of optical gear (though today they seem to specialize in optics for hunting).  They also had a walk-in retail option which appears to still exist:
https://www.opticspl...m/about-us.html

They had a warehouse in the back and a small office up front.  I was there to buy a low power eyepiece.   They fetched a Meade 36mm QX and a 56mm Plossl from the back and let me try them out with a telescope, looking out into the parking lot.  They were super nice and it was wonderful to be able to handle and look through the eyepieces before making a selection.  I had originally intended to get the Plossl but ended up getting the QX instead which gets awful reviews from fast telescope owners but works fabulously at F10, which I wouldn't have known without being able to try them.

My hometown also used to have a company called EagleOptics that was similar in having a front office along with a website / warehouse.  They also designed their own line of gear. They were killed off in 2018 after 30 years of business.
 

Brick and mortar stores are all but extinct now thanks to the Amazon effect / retail apocalypse.  However, companies like this that operate warehouses as back ends to e-commerce websites are the next thing in Amazon's crosshairs.   They are in the process of being wiped out by companies that just operate an Amazon / eBay storefront and drop ship everything directly from China. 

So, please, please, if at all possible, buy directly from companies that operate their own websites (like Astronomics) and not from Amazon.   Now that we've lost all of our manufacturing, let's not lose retail as well.

Edited by abe, 05 January 2025 - 01:50 PM.

[Bob Campbell]

good science classes in school taught by well qualified teachers paired with excitement around developments in science is what matters, alongside parents who support their children’s learning and curiosity.

Will we have that? Do we have that? Are these teachers and school settings being developed? They sure are in in China and India. A lot of things space are moving forward strongly in Europe. I think we (US) are falling behind was my message. We do not want to become a nation of billionaires on the top of a sea of 'eaters' and unproductive members of society. Remember, AI will be taking the jobs of those who used to work in many disciplines previously considered to be 'good jobs'.

 

And there is a push for trades jobs and foregoing university education altogether. That makes some sense, because a robotic plumber or AC/heating tech is pretty far in the future. However, not everyone is cut out to be one of those people.

 

There is a battle for space (and AI) superiority and without the right educational programs put in place with the right students enrolled in them, the US will be going down hard.

 

Frankly, its terrifying.

 

Bob

Edited by Bob Campbell, 05 January 2025 - 01:41 PM.

[Bob Campbell]

Years ago, I paid a visit to OpticsPlanet in Northbrook Illinois, near Chicago.   They are an online retailer that carries all sorts of optical gear (though today they seem to specialize in optics for hunting).  They also had a walk-in retail option which appears to still exist:
https://www.opticspl...m/about-us.html

They had a warehouse in the back and a small office up front.  I was there to buy a low power eyepiece.   They fetched a Meade 36mm QX and a 56mm Plossl from the back and let me try them out with a telescope, looking out into the parking lot.  They were super nice and it was wonderful to be able to handle and look through the eyepieces before making a selection.  I had originally intended to get the Plossl but ended up getting the QX instead which gets awful reviews from fast telescope owners but works fabulously at F10, which I wouldn't have known without being able to try them.
 

Brick and mortar stores are all but extinct now thanks to the Amazon effect / retail apocalypse.

However, companies like this that operate warehouses as back ends to e-commerce websites are the next thing in Amazon's crosshairs.   They are in the process of being wiped out by companies that just operate an Amazon / eBay storefront and drop ship everything directly from China. 

So, please, please, if at all possible, buy directly from companies that operate their own websites (like Astronomics) and not from Amazon.   Now that we've lost all of our manufacturing, let's not lose retail as well.

Excellent post. Amazon  and Instacart kept my family going during the pandemic so these kind of services do have a place. However, I do see where you are coming from. I've never found Amazon/Ebay a very good place to buy astronomy gear, but that is just me. I've bought from Astronomics, Highpoint, OC and even Agena before they blacklisted me for frank and truthful comments posted here on CN.

 

Ironically, I live but a couple hours from Starizona one of the last brick and mortar places left, but I have yet to visit them.

 

Bob

Edited by Bob Campbell, 05 January 2025 - 01:50 PM.

[CarolinaBanker]

Will we have that? Do we have that? Are these teachers and school settings being developed? They sure are in in China and India. A lot of things space are moving forward strongly in Europe. I think we (US) are falling behind was my message. We do not want to become a nation of billionaires on the top of a sea of 'eaters' and unproductive members of society. Remember, AI will be taking the jobs of those who used to work in many disciplines previously considered to be 'good jobs'.

 

And there is a push for trades jobs and foregoing university education altogether. That makes some sense, because a robotic plumber or AC/heating tech is pretty far in the future. However, not everyone is cut out to be one of those people.

 

There is a battle for space (and AI) superiority and without the right educational programs put in place with the right students enrolled in them, the US will be going down hard.

 

Frankly, its terrifying.

 

Bob

Will we/do we have that? Probably, there’s been an explosion of STEM focused schools and US universities are at the top of essentially all scientific fields. Also, for both the hobby and in general it’s not the median American that matters, we are talking about outliers. The average person doesn’t make the leap from looking up at the night sky to awe and wonder. Similarly the average student of both today and yesteryear wasn’t going into a STEM field. 
 

While there’s been a huge increase in the number of bachelors granted that peaked a few years ago you will find that it wasn’t STEM and a lot of those who may not elect to attend college probably wouldn’t be a STEM major.

 

Back to retail, there was an era where mass affluence met with more leisure time, darker skies (compared to today) and no internet/cable. It’s much like the decline in moviegoing, a substitution effect.

 

Thats paired with increased rent and the ease/convenience of online ordering, why drive 45 minutes when you can get exactly what you want to your door in two days? Plus online is usually cheaper.

[Bob Campbell]

Will we/do we have that? Probably, there’s been an explosion of STEM focused schools and US universities are at the top of essentially all scientific fields. Also, for both the hobby and in general it’s not the median American that matters, we are talking about outliers. The average person doesn’t make the leap from looking up at the night sky to awe and wonder. Similarly the average student of both today and yesteryear wasn’t going into a STEM field. 
 

While there’s been a huge increase in the number of bachelors granted that peaked a few years ago you will find that it wasn’t STEM and a lot of those who may not elect to attend college probably wouldn’t be a STEM major.

 

Back to retail, there was an era where mass affluence met with more leisure time, darker skies (compared to today) and no internet/cable. It’s much like the decline in moviegoing, a substitution effect.

 

Thats paired with increased rent and the ease/convenience of online ordering, why drive 45 minutes when you can get exactly what you want to your door in two days? Plus online is usually cheaper.

Ok, if what you say is true, we have nothing to worry about. I am skeptical. Are these STEM schools teaching what is really relevant to compete? One indicator (future) could be which students  in the graduate department of those STEM-centric schools who classically have turned out the top people that work in the cutting edge fields. I would contend that quite a few now are on their F-1, M-1, and J-1 visas.

 

Only time will tell which of us (or neither) are right.

 

Bob

[mcoren]

In the Baltimore/Washington DC region Company 7 Astro-Optics brick front shop/showroom remains open though Marty has been poor-mouthing for the past year or so regarding store rent and undermining by online sales = a "why even try anymore" attitude. The fact that he is an AP/TEC dealer etc and sitting in one of the largest disposable-income centers of the nation surely is a benefit as well as his involvement in side science/govt projects (still viable in this political climate?). C7 was also a big Orion dealer and it's closure surely has to be a major kick in the you-know-whats.

Company 7 always seemed just a little bit arrogant and judgmental, IMO.  Their web site gives off a "we don't have to be selling telescopes because we consult for NASA" vibe, and their descriptions of the different manufacturers and product lines (many long out of date) often focus on whether the manufacturers meet their (Company 7's) standards.  I bought a scope from them about 20 years ago, and when I made my decision to go with an off-the-shelf Celestron package, they were like, "OK, if that's what you really want."

 

Their showroom is awesome, with lots of drool-worthy gear on display.  But they're definitely not a place I would recommend to somebody shopping for a first telescope (I used to tell people to call Orion for that).

[deSitter]

Company 7 always seemed just a little bit arrogant and judgmental, IMO.  Their web site gives off a "we don't have to be selling telescopes because we consult for NASA" vibe, and their descriptions of the different manufacturers and product lines (many long out of date) often focus on whether the manufacturers meet their (Company 7's) standards.  I bought a scope from them about 20 years ago, and when I made my decision to go with an off-the-shelf Celestron package, they were like, "OK, if that's what you really want."

 

Their showroom is awesome, with lots of drool-worthy gear on display.  But they're definitely not a place I would recommend to somebody shopping for a first telescope (I used to tell people to call Orion for that).

Same here - I thought it was just me. Ok just I.

 

-drl

[jragsdale]

Company 7 always seemed just a little bit arrogant and judgmental, IMO.  Their web site gives off a "we don't have to be selling telescopes because we consult for NASA" vibe, and their descriptions of the different manufacturers and product lines (many long out of date) often focus on whether the manufacturers meet their (Company 7's) standards. 

I honestly did not even know they were still in business! Whenever I've seen their website it looks like archive info from a late 90s/early 2000s business. Never seen anything for sale online from them. Never heard of anyone who's bought anything from them in the last 2 decades. Definitely a them problem if they're having business challenges.

[mcoren]

There used to be book stores too.

I don't remember the last time I saw a book store. It's been many years.

 

Yes to the above.

 

You know, the same can be said of record stores. Tower Records, etc. were more than just places to buy records. They were places to meet people, see what music and shows were coming, browse through racks of albums and check out the artwork on album covers (remember those). 

 

Obviously, the music business is many times larger than the telescope business. But the same brick and mortar interaction and community has been lost for the sake of Internet expediency The Internet makes buying easier. But easier isn't always better, it's just easier.

 

Bob

 

I'm no market analyst, but I've read articles about this and I remember seeing a documentary about Tower Records a few years back.  My understanding is that a large part of what killed music and book stores (no, it wasn't Napster) is that they were trying to support their businesses selling only music and books, while general merchandise stores like Target, Walmart, and even grocery stores began selling the top 20 bestsellers (books and CDs).  All those other stores could sell them almost at cost because it wasn't their primary business, and having them available in the store generated traffic and gave customers more of a sense of value for one-stop shopping.

 

Barnes and Noble still has lots of brick and mortar stores, but the last time I went into one, it felt like a Starbucks reading room, and they had as much floorspace for toys and games as they did for books.

[Maximus001]

Personally, I really like Marty. He’s a great story teller and loves good conversation. Having been a retailer I understand where he’s coming from. Customers would often take an hour of our time and then say “i think I’ll order online”. Such. Is the changing landscape of retail. 
 

I’ve made purchases there and would again in a heartbeat. 

[mcoren]

So I ask the group here, with them (and perhaps similar sites) closing what will stimulate the development of future generations of scientists and engineers in the US?

 

It is troubling to say the least. I do have the answer for the eventual demise of astronomy/telescope related magazines: The amount of free science news sites and direct interaction of agencies (i.e. NASA, JPL) with the public will fill the void of no astro-related mags which has news printed at least half a year old.

 

Will everything become virtual? That is, holding science stuff in your hands become a thing of the past?

 

 

 

Bob

While online sales may be a factor hurting astronomy shops, I think a bigger issue is that people just don't feel connected to the stars anymore.  Young people (pre-adolescents) don't have as much reason to go outside at night, and when they do go outside, they don't notice the stars anyway due to all of the light pollution.

[deSitter]

I'm no market analyst, but I've read articles about this and I remember seeing a documentary about Tower Records a few years back.  My understanding is that a large part of what killed music and book stores (no, it wasn't Napster) is that they were trying to support their businesses selling only music and books, while general merchandise stores like Target, Walmart, and even grocery stores began selling the top 20 bestsellers (books and CDs).  All those other stores could sell them almost at cost because it wasn't their primary business, and having them available in the store generated traffic and gave customers more of a sense of value for one-stop shopping.

 

Barnes and Noble still has lots of brick and mortar stores, but the last time I went into one, it felt like a Starbucks reading room, and they had as much floorspace for toys and games as they did for books.

Well this isn't new - I bought most of my Beatles albums at K-mart! MP3s killed music IMO. Literally and as a business. The rips are often unlistenable.

 

-drl

[saemark30]

 Here's the rundown of what came and went during my years living in Vancouver BC

 

 Back in 1998 we had Harrison Scientific instruments and at the same time the Vancouver Telescope Center....not the one of the same name or owners that came later. The original Vancouver Telescope Center closed about the same time Harrison closed and the the new Vancouver Telescope Center came to life.

 

 Next up was the Vancouver Telescope Center with connections to Harrison Scientific Instruments. They had a few locations before the last one off Burrard St. before they closed in 2017.

 

 At the time the newer Vancouver Telescope Center was open we had Island Eyepiece over on Vancouver Island which closed in 2015. I loved those visits to Island Eyepiece and getting stuff in the mail from Brian the owner which no other shops carried.

 

 Everything I currently own from scope, ep ,mount, filter you name it was bought from these 4 stores I still use today. Every scope was tested in advance with all the scopes of different types I bought and sold from them. The ones I have left are from Harrison and VTC. These were the days before the internet buying method was in full swing and you could test and try stuff out in advance in the flesh or a star parties where the shops brought stuff for folks to check out...I call it the golden years {at least IMO}

 

 Other one with a store front was Canadian Telescopes out in Burnaby that closed in and around 2016.

 

 The only store front shop left in the Vancouver area is Markarian Fine Optics which has connections to both Harrison and VTC which I never visited while all my stuff was in storage during my observing break before moving to the dark sky boonies a year and a half back with everything bought in the flesh all those years back coming along and back in use.

Markarian Fine Optics is closing their storefront location unfortunately.

[Refractor6]

Markarian Fine Optics is closing their storefront location unfortunately.

   Wow...tough times have fallen on them too it appears   .  That makes for no actual store front shops left period to buy scope stuff in my old stomping grounds.... 

[Refractor6]

 Here's the full rundown from their Facebook page:

 

https://www.facebook...arianfineoptics

 

 

Dear Friends & Valued Customers,
We want to take a moment to update you on the recent developments at Markarian Fine Optics. As many of you know, we have done our best to provide you with our best service while struggling to keep up with the rising costs of business in Vancouver, but something had to change. That is why we are altering our business model.
As you are reading this we have closed our storefront at 1481 Kingsway. We are sorry for the inconvenience this may have caused some of you and we sincerely apologize for any disruption in our communications over the past few weeks. The Canada Post strike severely impacted our operations this past Christmas, and halted the necessary revenue that would usually carry us through to the spring. We have already secured a small private office space to continue our sales and repair services. While this means we will be unable to meet most of you in person for the foreseeable future, we will be doing everything possible to maintain our standards and remain in contact with all of you. In the meantime we will keep you updated on our progress and look to this space as our new path evolves.
Anyone needing to get in contact with us may continue to do so via our Email and telephone as you have done in the past because these will remain unchanged. Email will be the more reliable means of contact while we are setting up, but we anticipate the phones to be working again soon. For anyone needing these contacts they are listed below:
Email: info@markarianfineoptics.ca
Phone: (778) 657-5330
We appreciate your patience and understanding as we navigate this transition, and we apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.
Thank you for your continued support. We look forward to reconnecting with you soon and continuing to provide you with the services you expect from us.
Best regards,
Markarian Fine Optics